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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: Welpe on February 20, 2012, 08:36:05 PM
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We got the word from our chapter secretary today on the TASO Board making some major changes to the points system.
The highlights:
No cap on education points.
The limit on scrimmage points has been removed.
And the biggie: Varsity game requirements to make D2 and D1 have been removed.
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I dont really know what to think about the new rule change. Over the past 6 years I doubt there is anyone else in the state that has been more affected by this rule then me and my crew. I complained about the stupidity of this rule to anyone who would listen. Now the year I finally become a d1 and everyone on my crew is at least a 2 they change the rule. The system as it was worked. There just are not enough officials that are willing to put in the time. It is kinda like in education when not enough of the kids pass a state test it is easier and cheaper to just create another test rather then fix the problem. Here the problem is not enough young officials so they think this will fix the problem. I am really against the doing away with the 15 varsity game maximum for points. I think it just promotes greed. I mean really how many d2/3 officials really call more then 15 games? The one positive from this is I think I can really make a good run at the top 10 Taso points of all time with these new rules. I suppose people like welpewill benefit so it is good. I just think the board is going to use this as a way to say, " look what we did for new officials" when in reality I do not see this helping out the problem of a lack of young officials in TASO
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I totally agrre with you Coby.
They are really "selling out" on this.
Even in my work vocation to attain ceratin professional designations and certifications you have to have a combination of CE credits, mininum scoring on professional exams and certain numbers of years experience.
This is like playing the game - everyone is a winner - no scores kept - everyone gets a big trophy and pizza.
I think the value of dedicated effort is diluted with this new change.
Also, I noticed that a D3 can be a crew chief.
I thought the Houston chapter adopted the policy that a crew chief had to be a D1 or D2.
I saw it in the members's section.
Nothing surprises me anymore.... pi1eOn
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The intent was to not punish the many officials in the state that work a ton of subvarsity games but not that many varsity games. In some of the larger chapters where getting a varsity games is few and far between. Many officials had the points to move into D2 or D1 but they didn't have the number of varsity games that was required. Now they can move up because they have been working all those subvarsity games that should count for something.
The same goes for education points. Dropping the max on those we can hope this will encourage officials to attend as many clinics as they can. In the past officials would get the max points at 1 clinic and not go to any others. Now they may go out and attend numerous clinics. The same for scrimmages. If you can go out and work 10, then you should get 10 points.
The State Meeting points will no longer be called "Bonus Points". It will be standard for all state meetings that for each 1 hour of classroom instruction you will get 1 point.
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The intent was to not punish the many officials in the state that work a ton of subvarsity games but not that many varsity games. In some of the larger chapters where getting a varsity games is few and far between. Many officials had the points to move into D2 or D1 but they didn't have the number of varsity games that was required. Now they can move up because they have been working all those subvarsity games that should count for something.
The same goes for education points. Dropping the max on those we can hope this will encourage officials to attend as many clinics as they can. In the past officials would get the max points at 1 clinic and not go to any others. Now they may go out and attend numerous clinics. The same for scrimmages. If you can go out and work 10, then you should get 10 points.
The State Meeting points will no longer be called "Bonus Points". It will be standard for all state meetings that for each 1 hour of classroom instruction you will get 1 point.
One problem Jason, when it is easier to get to D1, thus D1 grows even larger, then what happens? What is the motivation of all those D1 members to get out and work sv or attend clinics? I think this change will have the opposite affect of what the TASO board is trying to do. What they really need to do now and raise the points required to move from one division to the next.
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Several years ago when the "points rule" was amended, I thought it was dumb. Why make the change for the state wide system just to fit Houston ( or whoever)? Houston should change their way of doing things and have a system to integrate the newer officials into games to get them experience. Most chapters do this either by design or necessity.
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Rickwts agree 99%
Jason you proved my point. This action is not going to make it easier for young/new officials to get varsity games (which is what I believe the intent of this change is, atleast I want to believe). The problem of a glass ceiling for new officials will still be there fundamentally in the bigger chapters Houston especially.
Texdoc: I agree it will have the opposite effect of what they intend. Unfortunately in the email I received they just state what the changes are not the reasonings behind the changes so we will not know what their intent is.
What is the answer? I believe a once every 3 years portfolio review would be a neat concept. This way if you would like to bust your butt and work hard you could move up to the top level in 7-8 years. Also this would prevent the people who have been at D1 for 20 years who have just coasted and never attempted to get better a reason to get better. Make it where the local chapter can only assign the highest ranking to 20 percent of the chapter. But the state can give out an additional 250 top grades during an interview or portfolio review at the state meeting. This would make a lot of people more accountable.
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"What is the answer? I believe a once every 3 years portfolio review would be a neat concept. This way if you would like to bust your butt and work hard you could move up to the top level in 7-8 years. Also this would prevent the people who have been at D1 for 20 years who have just coasted and never attempted to get better a reason to get better. Make it where the local chapter can only assign the highest ranking to 20 percent of the chapter. But the state can give out an additional 250 top grades during an interview or portfolio review at the state meeting. This would make a lot of people more accountable."
This won't work in rural chapters. Bottom line is this. Most people on this site are an example of those getting better. Regardless of how many adjustments you make to a points system there are guys who put on the uniform in August and take it off in Novemeber and are done. They do not care to get any better. I know a lot of Division 1 officials who have been there a long time who never go to camps, clinics, or try to even work with young guys. They do not go to scrimmages and still will not no matter how many points you allow to their end of year reports.
Locally your division only allows you to be on crews that are selectable for 4a and 5a games. Even then we have rules around the point make ups of those crews. Crew chiefs have to have been calling a certain number of years. So here in theory you could have a ten year WH who is a D3 because he just did not have points for a two or one yet. So long as rest crew has point make up they get a chance to be picked by 4a 5a coaches.
Games motivate in the end and not the division or points. I am not certain a state agnecy telling certain officials as a D1 they can not be, that based on a portfolio reviews etc makes any difference in motivating me or anyone else to "get better." If an official is on the "right" crew I will get my game. For me personally I care about my performance and review film etc to be better so this is moot for me. For the August to Novemebr guy not much does motivate them but "is the game big"?
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The problem of a glass ceiling for new officials will still be there fundamentally in the bigger chapters Houston especially.
You're not kidding there.
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Rick you are proving my point for a portfolio approach. The local chapter knows (for the most part) who is coasting and not trying to get better. They can only give a top ranking to the top 20%. They can assign their own evaluation protocol as they seem fit. Anyone who does not like it or chapters where there are more quality officials then the top 20% can have their credentials evaluated at the state meeting or committee. Taso state can then give additional top rankings as they deem nescessary. Credentials evaluated does not mean games worked, sure that should be part of the evaluation. They could design a rules test, or physical fitness test, or number of post on refstripes it can change as the state board sees fit. This will cause a lot of smaller rural chapters to step up their training game. If I am a coach outside of the assigning area and I go to small chapter A and ask for a top 20% crew from the small chapter and they come out and do my game. If they are no good I am going to say, "damn they were a top 20% crew from small chapter A and that is what I got". Same thing with the big chapters. If they send me crap I will say damn that is what they sent me. Competition is the key to a better product not complacency.
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One thing is quite obvious, the division system TASO employs is a measure of experience, not quality or ability. Coaches, especially during the playoffs, want D1 only officials at times because, real or not, they believe asking for D1 will provide them with quality and experience. Although not mutually exclusive, the two measures are seen as one in the same by coaches when they see Division this or that next to an official's name.
In the end, the coaches will still select who they want for their games and will always be affording the opportunity to scratch. A true rating that combines experience and ability is what we need, but is not cheap to implement.
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This new TASO directive is kinda akin to "Obama Care"
The intent is well but it sure is a crazy way to get there... :!#
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In the end, the coaches will still select who they want for their games
There's the real problem...just my $0.02...
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Waitin' to hear how my friend, Arbitrator weighs in.
Haven't heard from him lately.
Betcha he got on one of those exotic cruises to the Med yEs:
or he's busy watching and counting as his big stock portfolio skies upward eAt&
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"If I am a coach outside of the assigning area and I go to small chapter A and ask for a top 20% crew from the small chapter and they come out and do my game. If they are no good I am going to say, "damn they were a top 20% crew from small chapter A and that is what I got". Same thing with the big chapters. If they send me crap I will say damn that is what they sent me. Competition is the key to a better product not complacency."
This happens now without the official program in place. Coaches select at the end of the day. I do not see any program being implemented that ties experiance and ability statewide well. There is lack of man power to grade in small chapters. There is lack of caring and initiative State level wise. It seems these same discussions happen year in and year out. It always comes back to at least locally, guys/crews who get better get noticed by coaches and get punished by them when they are not picked. Sad but thats the system we live with here. Not much will make it better. On rare occasion we see crews who are a problem with performance. Board will act and discuss with them. Then when they refuse to fix it they find themselves with no games at higher levels. I have seen this.
I do not disagree something can be improved on. I do not think a persons division level will be what motivates them.
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One thing is quite obvious, the division system TASO employs is a measure of experience, not quality or ability. Coaches, especially during the playoffs, want D1 only officials at times because, real or not, they believe asking for D1 will provide them with quality and experience. Although not mutually exclusive, the two measures are seen as one in the same by coaches when they see Division this or that next to an official's name.
In the end, the coaches will still select who they want for their games and will always be affording the opportunity to scratch. A true rating that combines experience and ability is what we need, but is not cheap to implement.
I always thought a good way to test this theory is to put a completely fictional crew of all D1 officials in the book and available at the picks. Every school that picks them would then get board assigned a crew in their place.
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Some of our officials will purposesly not turn in their points just so they can stay in D2. I have asked why they prefer to stay D2 and they tell me that some coaches don't pick D1 because they fear they might be getting someone higher in age. I am not sure if there is any truth to that because I don't ask the coaches for the reasoning behind their requests.
At the meeting TASO showed some stats on the ages of officials. The average age of TASO football members is 47. I don't remember the exact range, but something like ages 45 - 50 has the most ammount of members. What we are lacking is young officials. Officials in the low 20's only had 250 members in the state. A large portion of those that are 45-50 were also D5 and D4 officials. You can do the math as to what age some of those will be when they make it to D1. At this point in time I think we don't even need to worry about points, but instead we need to find a way to get some younger people to become officials and then get them educated. In my chapter, most of our guys don't even care about the points because they know at the end of the day, they get assigned based upon their ability and not their division. As someone already pointed out, divisions are not always relative to ability.
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The other issue is retention of younger officials. I'm only starting my 5th year of footbal officiating but I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about it as I was my first couple of years. Some of that is natural progression, but most of it is getting tired of it. I like working games but all of the other garbage that goes with officiating football is beginning to take its toll. Especially since I have a little one at home, finding a hard time justifying being gone as much as I am.
Paying dues is one thing but I'm really not looking forward to another year of chasing six man and subvarsity games all over the sticks in order to get noticed. I'll quit complaining now but that's where I'm at and I know I'm not the only one.
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The other issue is retention of younger officials. I'm only starting my 5th year of footbal officiating but I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about it as I was my first couple of years. Some of that is natural progression, but most of it is getting tired of it. I like working games but all of the other garbage that goes with officiating football is beginning to take its toll. Especially since I have a little one at home, finding a hard time justifying being gone as much as I am.
Paying dues is one thing but I'm really not looking forward to another year of chasing six man and subvarsity games all over the sticks in order to get noticed. I'll quit complaining now but that's where I'm at and I know I'm not the only one.
I have been where you are now. I understand what you are going through.
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Some of our officials will purposesly not turn in their points just so they can stay in D2. I have asked why they prefer to stay D2 and they tell me that some coaches don't pick D1 because they fear they might be getting someone higher in age. I am not sure if there is any truth to that because I don't ask the coaches for the reasoning behind their requests.
At the meeting TASO showed some stats on the ages of officials. The average age of TASO football members is 47. I don't remember the exact range, but something like ages 45 - 50 has the most ammount of members. What we are lacking is young officials. Officials in the low 20's only had 250 members in the state. A large portion of those that are 45-50 were also D5 and D4 officials. You can do the math as to what age some of those will be when they make it to D1. At this point in time I think we don't even need to worry about points, but instead we need to find a way to get some younger people to become officials and then get them educated. In my chapter, most of our guys don't even care about the points because they know at the end of the day, they get assigned based upon their ability and not their division. As someone already pointed out, divisions are not always relative to ability.
Jason- What is really going to suck is in 15 years you and I are dealing with this issue. In Houston for example by my best age guessing/knowing there are about 400 members on crews. I put the number of white hats over the age of 60 at 27 (very generous). I put the number of members on a crew (in any position) that are under the age of 40 at 24. The majority of those officials under the age of 40 had dads that were also officials. So when I presented the findings to my superiors I suggested that they either start recruiting young officials or provide subsidies to officials to breed more children.
So I always try to present a solution when I notice a problem. Jason I think you and I should co-chair a roundtable discussion at the state meeting of TASO officials under the age of 40. Where we discuss the concerns of our age group and our perspective. I want to try to stay away from getting more games, and focus more on technology, recruiting, demographics and retention. Then invite all of the board members to sit in with us. Right now what I know is a "young guns clinic" is not an answer. Let me know what you think. What is the process of getting on the agenda for a session?
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Jason- What is really going to suck is in 15 years you and I are dealing with this issue. In Houston for example by my best age guessing/knowing there are about 400 members on crews. I put the number of white hats over the age of 60 at 27 (very generous). I put the number of members on a crew (in any position) that are under the age of 40 at 24. The majority of those officials under the age of 40 had dads that were also officials. So when I presented the findings to my superiors I suggested that they either start recruiting young officials or provide subsidies to officials to breed more children.
So I always try to present a solution when I notice a problem. Jason I think you and I should co-chair a roundtable discussion at the state meeting of TASO officials under the age of 40. Where we discuss the concerns of our age group and our perspective. I want to try to stay away from getting more games, and focus more on technology, recruiting, demographics and retention. Then invite all of the board members to sit in with us. Right now what I know is a "young guns clinic" is not an answer. Let me know what you think. What is the process of getting on the agenda for a session?
I would start with the president of Houston chapter. All the things you mentioned were brought up by him. Your district director can also help you put something on the agenda. The board meetings are also open to the membership until they go into closed session. Retention was a hot topic. Some think that getting varsity games to new officials is the key. It may help, but once a new official gets varsity games, he then is expecting a playoff game. Once that don't happen, we run into retention problems as a smaller chapter. TASO doesn't get involved with how crews are picked or how games are assigned, but there was discussion about the need to get younger officials involved and make it easier for them to get some games.
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Waitin' to hear how my friend, Arbitrator weighs in.
Haven't heard from him lately.
Betcha he got on one of those exotic cruises to the Med yEs:
or he's busy watching and counting as his big stock portfolio skies upward eAt&
^flag
Correct...Wrong... and Wrong!
Correct in that you haven't heard from me as I just got back from hobnobing with barristers. Wrong... that wasn't me on the Mediterreanean cruise ship that went aground, when HoustonUmp, stumbled to the starboard side and caused that ship to list. Wrong... even at 13,000, my stock portfolio is a joke. But thanks for thinking of me rsquare, cause I know that HoustonUmp would never ever do that! Can't wait until he works for my crew again! He'll get some exercise!
Regarding the TASO football points change, I cannot help but feel that this change should put everybody on the same footing. Granted, the major metropolitan chapters, strictly as a matter of logistics, will continue to dominate the vast number of those games/points because they are physically located in the population centers. Historically speaking, there have been changes made over the years that was done to cap the points of the larger chapters and try to make the smaller chapters more equivalent. The only thing I wish they would do is to go back to giving 1/4 points to the D5's, D4's and D3's for peanut games, as that would be beneficial to the young people doing those.
Whether or not this change was implemented does not detract from the fact that we are/will be very top-heavy with D1's in a very short period of time. And a couple of years from now, we'll be visiting about busting D1 up into a "super-division." I can already see it coming! z^
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Perhaps we can set up a school/organization sorta like the "Universal Life Church".
Remeber during the draft FlAg1 - you could send them $35 to get your theology degree and set up a church. Get your conscientious objection deferment
Uh oh - I guess I am dating myself as one of those 50 + D1 geezeers hEaDbAnG
Oh well
Send me $19.95 plus $6.95 S/H and you can get your D1 certification from UOI (Universal Officiating Institute) - aWaRd - wait - that is way to close to UIL intials - they may beat me to the gun! :sTiR:
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Careful, keep that up and Arbitrator will start calling you a Manor Roadie... :o
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I guess I am dating myself as one of those 50 + D1 geezeers
I resemble that remark, just barely (age-wise that is, been D1 for 12 or 13 years or so and have about 1,400 pts)
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Yep
and those 1400 points are as good as those S & H green stamps... LOL
Now I am really dating myself pi1eOn
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I thought the game requirement for D1 and D2 was reasonable. If officials had problems getting the games in, you had other problems -- some the fault of the officials and some the fault of the chapter. I've worked in big chapters and small chapters and both have one thing in common: when the phone rings, you take the assignment. I understand that there are some saying the phone isn't ringing, but if you're turning down V games (and I mean for other than legit reasons), don't complain about the numbers. I've been to a lot of places I didn't want to go and didn't get paid enough to be there. But I went, and I'm probably a better official because of it.
Do the changes take place immediately or do they start next year? In other words, if someone turned in what amounts to 360 points but only had 35 games, are they now D2?
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Many officials had the points to move into D2 or D1 but they didn't have the number of varsity games that was required.
I understand that Houston has had some issues with this, but I have to wonder how big an issue it was around the state. I work in a big chapter and can only think of one person who was pretty well capped at D2 and I'm not even sure he's worked any games in the last decade -- just pulled chains. He had some issues that made chain assignments better for him, but is there really anyone at 400-450 or greater without 40 games? 750 or 800 or greater without 75? 360 with only 35 games isn't a huge cause for concern since it will be taken care of in one season.
To me, the best idea not adopted is to allow 1 point for HS subvarsity games. When I needed game points a few years ago, I worked a lot of 7th grade games -- 6 minute quarters and 3 games a night was a cinch. More points and money than the Thursday night JV games -- which I worked anyway -- but not as good for training and experience.
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This whole discussion is a moot point. Nothing will ever change, the "old guard" will continue their stranglehold on the best games and lock out the younger officials just because "thats what (they) did when they started." You want to know how to retain young officials? Stop f***ing with young officials. No chapter will accept that truth, and so nothing ever changes.
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Define "good games".
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This whole discussion is a moot point. Nothing will ever change, the "old guard" will continue their stranglehold on the best games and lock out the younger officials just because "thats what (they) did when they started." You want to know how to retain young officials? Stop f***ing with young officials. No chapter will accept that truth, and so nothing ever changes.
All games shold be considered "good games". I am a firm believer in moving the younger guys into crews with proper training. I do it with my crew. But taking a first year guy and throwing him to the wolves does him no good.
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Define "good games".
A game not played at Alamo Stadium! LOL LOL LOL
Sorry, I could not resist.
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Define "good games".
Games where your Secretary magically has the clairvoyance enough to know it will be a close one and competitive prior to it being played.
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This whole discussion is a moot point. Nothing will ever change, the "old guard" will continue their stranglehold on the best games and lock out the younger officials just because "thats what (they) did when they started." You want to know how to retain young officials? Stop f***ing with young officials. No chapter will accept that truth, and so nothing ever changes.
While I understand where you are coming from I dont think the lockout of games is entirely true. I do completely agree that the chapters will not accept the truth so nothing will change. For instance a couple of years back when they were talking about how to get young officials involved the big move by the state was to allow individuals under the age of 18 to become associate members to pull chains. Really :-\!!!! That was the big policy change. While the new varsity points is a better move it is still ignoring the elephant in the room.
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Here's a system that I think would work -- it would balance expectations with the need for experience. Smaller chapters would have to adjust for their needs.
1st year: subvarsity and chains; try to get as much high school game experience as possible;
2nd year: 6 man games; continue with subvarsity;
3rd -5th year: higher level 6 man games, private schools, lower level UIL games;
6th year: eligible for 4a/5a crew.
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Another change that I forgot to mention that may help get some guys into more games is that "double dipping" will no longer be allowed. For example if you go out and work a varsity game on Saturday at 12 pm. you will not be allowed to work another varsity game that day. An exception is allowed if that "double dip" would be to cover a 6 man football game. Some of the smaller chapters have trouble covering all their games and at times they have to work 2 games in 1 day. But, no more working a 5A game and then driving down the road to work another 11 man game that same day.
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Look, not trying to belittle the seasoned vets here because Im sure all of y'all are like the older gents in my chapter, really great guys and all. However, the mentality is what it is. "I had to bust my IDIOT for 10 years to get a varsity assignment, so should everyone coming up." That's just how it is and that's the reason you lose 75% of young officials after three years. You can defend it all you want, I'm just a silly little D4 shouting the truth. Ignore it if you want, but dont complain that you cant understand why people leave.
One major change that needs to happen in some form or fashion: officials who physically cannot perform(not in the gutter sense) on the field any longer. There needs to be a mechanism that encourages them to remain as valued assets but also gets them off the field. I know my chapter has talked about game evaluators and such, i think that'd be the PERFECT role. The chapter can pay their expenses and maybe a small stipend to watch the games and evaluate the crew. Even injured officials could do it and earn game points while being sidelined.
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Another change that I forgot to mention that may help get some guys into more games is that "double dipping" will no longer be allowed. For example if you go out and work a varsity game on Saturday at 12 pm. you will not be allowed to work another varsity game that day. An exception is allowed if that "double dip" would be to cover a 6 man football game. Some of the smaller chapters have trouble covering all their games and at times they have to work 2 games in 1 day. But, no more working a 5A game and then driving down the road to work another 11 man game that same day.
While I fully understand and agree with this rule, especially in light of one chapter sending a crew to work a playoff game in SA then drive up to Austin to work another one that day, there will be exceptions to this rule. Back in 1998 when San Antonio had horrible flooding, many games were canceled. I cannot recall all of the circumstances, but I worked a game the following Friday at 3 PM, drove across town and worked another one because we simply didn't have the bodies to cover all of the games.
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Look, not trying to belittle the seasoned vets here because Im sure all of y'all are like the older gents in my chapter, really great guys and all. However, the mentality is what it is. "I had to bust my IDIOT for 10 years to get a varsity assignment, so should everyone coming up." That's just how it is and that's the reason you lose 75% of young officials after three years. You can defend it all you want, I'm just a silly little D4 shouting the truth. Ignore it if you want, but dont complain that you cant understand why people leave.
One major change that needs to happen in some form or fashion: officials who physically cannot perform(not in the gutter sense) on the field any longer. There needs to be a mechanism that encourages them to remain as valued assets but also gets them off the field. I know my chapter has talked about game evaluators and such, i think that'd be the PERFECT role. The chapter can pay their expenses and maybe a small stipend to watch the games and evaluate the crew. Even injured officials could do it and earn game points while being sidelined.
Clear, this is the same discussion we had 20+ years ago when I was young and not nearly and big and could still move pretty good. Simple fact is, an official with 3 or 4 years experience is not ready for 4A and 5A quality football. When you get a game of this caliber with this little experience, you wind up getting scratched by the coaches. I've seen it several times. I think officials at this level of experience are certainly ready for varsity games, but perhaps at the 6 man, private school and lower classifications. After working there for a few years, then yes, time to move up to the higher quality games. You absolutely cannot discount experience when it comes to officiating. Coaches know many of the older officials, feel comfortable with them and want to use them. A good evaluation program may go a long way in helping identify younger/newer officials that really are ready to move up, but that's expensive and time consuming.
Being a gazelle on the field can help and hurt you. I have seen officials that over hustle to perhaps prove something, who knows what (that they can move maybe) and look ridiculous. Patience in officiating is something gained with experience. And, the most problems we have on the football field is when a young official gets on the field with a young coach. You cannot discount experience and patience.
I do agree that if someone is physically unfit to work as an official, they should not be on the field. That has nothing to do with age or experience. I also fully realize that just because one official is older, might have slowed a few steps and put on a few pounds, that does not at all make him a lesser official to the young guy that moves like the wind and hasn't a clue as to what he's doing. The rule book and mechanics of what we do are probably the most complicated of any sport in the world, and you don't learn them in 4 or 5 years to point of your full potential.
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Clear, this is the same discussion we had 20+ years ago when I was young and not nearly and big and could still move pretty good. Simple fact is, an official with 3 or 4 years experience is not ready for 4A and 5A quality football. When you get a game of this caliber with this little experience, you wind up getting scratched by the coaches. I've seen it several times. I think officials at this level of experience are certainly ready for varsity games, but perhaps at the 6 man, private school and lower classifications. After working there for a few years, then yes, time to move up to the higher quality games. You absolutely cannot discount experience when it comes to officiating. Coaches know many of the older officials, feel comfortable with them and want to use them. A good evaluation program may go a long way in helping identify younger/newer officials that really are ready to move up, but that's expensive and time consuming.
Being a gazelle on the field can help and hurt you. I have seen officials that over hustle to perhaps prove something, who knows what (that they can move maybe) and look ridiculous. Patience in officiating is something gained with experience. And, the most problems we have on the football field is when a young official gets on the field with a young coach. You cannot discount experience and patience.
I do agree that if someone is physically unfit to work as an official, they should not be on the field. That has nothing to do with age or experience. I also fully realize that just because one official is older, might have slowed a few steps and put on a few pounds, that does not at all make him a lesser official to the young guy that moves like the wind and hasn't a clue as to what he's doing. The rule book and mechanics of what we do are probably the most complicated of any sport in the world, and you don't learn them in 4 or 5 years to point of your full potential.
I completely respect your opinion and tenure and experience here. I dont disagree with you entirely, but I also dont agree entirely. I think there are just as many D1s and 2s that dont belong on a 4A-5A field but are getting those types of games because of their classification. Are you of the opinion that NO ONE with 4-5 years of experience could hack it at that level? I sure dont. One of the commenters on this board is a D4 that I work with that I think could out-officiate the pants off a few of the D1s that I've seen. I've also worked with D1s that I know are on one of the "better" crews that was blowing IW and downing players on my sideline while he was working at the R in a JV game. THAT'S the problem I have. I'm not advocating a system that lets inexperienced officials get thrown to the wolves before their ready, but the current setup does not adequately reward the best skilled officials. And that is the answer to the original question. People who deserve the recognition and the opportunity(young ones included) are not given the chance until they've "put in their time."
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The system in place really is not that bad. To make it better it will cost a lot of money. Talking to coaches that I currently work with; back in the day they had to take an officiating class in college. I know Houston does a very very limited college outreach. Does anyone else do a college outreach? I did hear through the grapevine that at the last presidents meeting they actually looked at state demographics. I appreciate that they are now atleast looking at data to make a decision. I dont agree that their actions will fix the problem but it is a start. If any of the TASO VIP's are reading this please email me the presentation so I can look at it.
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Hello fellow zebras! New to the board and just finished my first year of officiating. REALLY wished I had done it earlier but oh well, I'm glad to be doing it now.
As a newer official I'll throw my 2 cents in on this topic. Glad to hear that scrimmages will be uncapped now. As a new official I think any opportunity to see AND work live plays, especially the 4A/5A level, is worth at least something. I think what helped me get more comfortable was working the 6 or more scrimmages last fall and see the speed of those 5A guys up close. It really helped slow down the game. I can't wait till the spring ball starts up to get back out on the field more.
The classroom points are great and all, but if I had to choose one over the other I'd keep the uncapped scrimmages for sure.
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Welcome aboard, ATXMike! Hope you enjoy your stay here though you may want to consider a name change lest somebody confuses you with "that other" TXMike of infamous notority on this forum. ;D
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Yep, good chance you will get strung up by some (like those weenie soccer refs) who are so easily offended. They are gonna accuse you of being my alter ego. Maybe we can play good cop-bad cop.
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I would find it disturbing and frightening to find out ATXMike is/was in law enforcement. Say it ain't so... We already have the "...bad cop...". 8]
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Hey as long as he isn't a Fed...
Hopefully it's not "Bad Cop - Worse Cop"!
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Hey as long as he isn't a Fed...
Hopefully it's not "Bad Cop - Worse Cop"!
^flag
Now watch out what you say about Fed's! They still have some pretty good people despite the fact that I'm retired from there. Now if our new member happens to be U. S. Treasury, then I'd be absolutely thrilled to play "good revenuer/bad revenuer" with him! z^
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I have nothing against the Feds in general but it's always fun to poke Mike with a sharp stick. :sTiR:
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Sorry to disappoint you guys but I'm not in law enforcement, I'm in insurance.
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Glad to have you - kinda thunk was that Mike Atkinson??
If he said farmer, etc then I knew.
I would have been amazed if it was Atkinson.
Next thing you would know Mike would be "tweetin".
A lot of guys are in insurance...
Good fella - State Farmer - Ed Thompson from Pearland btw is making a run for the state house as a state rep.
So if any of you guys are down Pearland, Alvin, Brazoria Co. and yse Manvel way you might want to throw some support for a fellow official and mighty good man.. ^good
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Are you of the opinion that NO ONE with 4-5 years of experience could hack it at that level?
This is the exact same thing we ALL said when we were at that level. It isn't that "no one" can handle it, but that in general, its better to not show up at a game with 20K there and have that be one of your first varsity --- or first 11 man varsity -- games. Make no mistake -- that has happened in the past and not with the best of results.
I talked at length last season during a game we were observing with a guy that that came in the same year I have. We've worked together some and he does a good job. He was able to get on a pretty good crew his 3rd year and ended up in a first round playoff game in Texas Stadium. The game was a disaster -- he had TWO inadvertent whistles, the line judge badly missed a 4th down spot that forced a change of possession and effectively ended the game, and neither coach wanted anything to do with that crew again. Honestly, they probably only made about half a dozen mistakes the whole day, but they were all big and most were at the end. My buddy admitted he wasn't ready at the time.
Often it isn't a situation where anyone is keeping you or others down; its more of a situation where they don't want to put you in a position where you are likely to fail.
Bottom line (and I still have to live by this myself): BE PATIENT. Texas football is going to be around for a LONG time and chances are you will be too. In about 5-7 years, you will be writing the post I'm writing with much the same info to someone with 3-4 years of experience, wondering why he hasn't advanced as quickly.
Just as an aside: its a generally accepted view that 5 years of industry experience is what one needs in most professions to do their job at a level of excellence. That's roughly 10,000 hours of work. We work about a third of the year and not really full time, but including meetings, training, games, etc. you end up with about a thousand hours a year or so. Give or take. Anyway, it takes 10 years or so (maybe 12) to reach that 10K level in football. As someone who's right at that level, and has been there in my profession and in officiating other sports, I'd say there is a lot of merit to that view.
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Thank you for the perspective, Joe. It is greatly appreciated.
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....
To me, the best idea not adopted is to allow 1 point for HS subvarsity games. When I needed game points a few years ago, I worked a lot of 7th grade games -- 6 minute quarters and 3 games a night was a cinch. More points and money than the Thursday night JV games -- which I worked anyway -- but not as good for training and experience.
I am joining the discussion late, but this idea has merit. If a new guy wants to learn to call varsity high school football, the best preparation is calling 9th grade, sophomore and JV games – particularly at the 3A, 4A and 5A level. Giving these high school sub-varsity assignments 1 point is a good idea. They are clearly more valuable to the development of newer officials than 7th and 8th grade games.
Good idea!
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This is the exact same thing we ALL said when we were at that level. It isn't that "no one" can handle it, but that in general, its better to not show up at a game with 20K there and have that be one of your first varsity --- or first 11 man varsity -- games. Make no mistake -- that has happened in the past and not with the best of results.
Obviously you missed my point entirely and are now putting words in my mouth. I never said throw a 2nd yr guy in a 20k attended game. Regardless, the original question was asked, I answered it. If you dont like the truth, so be it, but just know the question will continue to be asked until some of those with the ability to do something about it finally do.
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I like the changes!
I work my butt off every single season. However, the games needed for D1/D2 don't really affect me as I'm in the Amarillo Chapter and have been doing varsity games from my rookie year on and I think I already meet the need for D1. (currently a few points away from d2)
I have been over the max points on scrimmages and educational points every year. I do 3-5 spring scrimmages and 4-7 pre-season scrimmages and go all the way to San Antonio and El Paso for camps and make the state meeting all over the State. I also do a TON of sub varsity. (mondays, Tuesdays, and 3 game sets on thursdays as well as Clock/Chains for the college games)
I love the game and want to get better every single year. It's nice to get some additional validation for the efforts.
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Not sure where but, think that 40?? Varsity games is in the deal and 60 for div 1, but there is a sentence that chap board can put you where you need?to be to make thongs kind of mesh.
My numbers don't mesh at all, less than 600 points and nearly 30 yrs, I know of at least 10 where points went away and seems like there was a couple of years where points did not count
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Not sure where but, think that 40?? Varsity games is in the deal and 60 for div 1, but there is a sentence that chap board can put you where you need?to be to make thongs kind of mesh.
My numbers don't mesh at all, less than 600 points and nearly 30 yrs, I know of at least 10 where points went away and seems like there was a couple of years where points did not count
I never thought I'd say this, but can we go back to talking about TASO patches instead of mesh thongs? nAnA
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Points Overhaul
« on: February 20, 2012, 08:36:05 PM »
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We got the word from our chapter secretary today on the TASO Board making some major changes to the points system.
The highlights:
No cap on education points.
The limit on scrimmage points has been removed.
And the biggie: Varsity game requirements to make D2 and D1 have been removed.
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I concur with ETXZebra. That is the information that I received as well.
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We were briefed on this months ago.
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thread about the same thing in February...
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=9044.0
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360 is the same number for Division II as its been for a while. 600 for D1 is new, as it used to be 660. I also did not hear about the change, though I did hear the required number of games was dropped for each.
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Whoever merged these two topics - why?!
They were merged because I chose to merge them. Any more questions?
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Who is we? Chapter? State?
San Antonio and well, Texas of course.
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I think there should be a Division 1A for guys that have reached 2000 points. Way too many D-1's as it stands now. ^no
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If TASO truly has changed to where there is no education max (still can't get an official confirmation on that from anyone associated with TASO or the board) I think that is a good change.
The information I posted months ago came directly from Tommy Moore, the TASO FB Vice President and Executive Secretary of the Houston chapter.
This system could also possibly standardize the Federation and NCAA people. Seems like guys who transfer from out of state get screwed the first few years they are here...
That is something that'll never happen, each state does things differently. The association I came from in California had 5 ratings from Probationary to Championship official and those were determined soley by ratings from your fellow officials. Other states have no ranking systems and only register their officials.
When I moved here, I found the process of getting points to be fair. I know of others that did as well and were not screwed.
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Runswith, I'm not trying to make this a fight, but let me explain the way you are coming across, which might help explain some folks' reaction. Above, you call someone's response an example of complacency. Yet below are paraphrases of some of your comments in this other threads that seem to indicate complacency on your part and have led some to see you as a complainer:
- I can't do anything about chapter leadership.
- I don't want to read manuals; I just want someone to provide me a single-document summary of all changes/decisions that have been made.
- I don't want to email TASO leadership because it didn't work for me in the past.
- I don't want to call TASO leadership and discuss the problems that I see.
- I don't want to ask my district director questions or make him aware of the problems that I see, even though he was at my chapter meeting last night.
- No matter how many people explain that my chapter should be providing this information (along with TASO) I'm not gonna listen.
As I said before, I don't completely disagree with some of your comments on communication. I agree that TASO could and should communicate better. However, you can't post something here and expect suddenly it will be done. I'm sure some of the TASO board read posts on this site but contacting them directly with your concerns is the only way to be sure they are aware of your concerns.
Do you receive the email messages that TASO sends out? One issue is that many people don't because their email providers have at some point kicked a message back to TASO. When that happens TASO no longer sends email to that address due to anti-span requirements. That is one reason communication from your chapter leadership is extremely important. If you are not getting the email messages, check to be sure TASO has your correct email address and ask them to "reset" it to start sending you messages again.
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Runswith, I'm not trying to make this a fight, but let me explain the way you are coming across, which might help explain some folks' reaction. Above, you call someone's response an example of complacency. Yet below are paraphrases of some of your comments in this other threads that seem to indicate complacency on your part and have led some to see you as a complainer:
- I can't do anything about chapter leadership.
- I don't want to read manuals; I just want someone to provide me a single-document summary of all changes/decisions that have been made.
- I don't want to email TASO leadership because it didn't work for me in the past.
- I don't want to call TASO leadership and discuss the problems that I see.
- I don't want to ask my district director questions or make him aware of the problems that I see, even though he was at my chapter meeting last night.
- No matter how many people explain that my chapter should be providing this information (along with TASO) I'm not gonna listen.
As I said before, I don't completely disagree with some of your comments on communication. I agree that TASO could and should communicate better. However, you can't post something here and expect suddenly it will be done. I'm sure some of the TASO board read posts on this site but contacting them directly with your concerns is the only way to be sure they are aware of your concerns.
Do you receive the email messages that TASO sends out? One issue is that many people don't because their email providers have at some point kicked a message back to TASO. When that happens TASO no longer sends email to that address due to anti-span requirements. That is one reason communication from your chapter leadership is extremely important. If you are not getting the email messages, check to be sure TASO has your correct email address and ask them to "reset" it to start sending you messages again.
Well put. Runs, just pick up the phone and call your district director. They can answer almost all of your questions, and that's why they make the big bucks. LOL LOL LOL If you cannot listen to the guys here, whose sage advice you probably need to heed, then confirm for yourself. Many of the posters here are very well connect and some are even in leadership positions within TASO. This is mainly a place to discuss rules and bitch a bit about our sorry lot in life.
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LOL You obviously don't know me very well.
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Yes and no.
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Welpe, I never have argued the information didn't come from a credible source. As I have said, it should come directly from a credible source. You posted on here.
I'm just a lowly zebra in the trenches in my chapter. Where do you think I got the information? I posted it here as a way of sharing the news with my fellow Texas officials that post on Refstripes. Not as an official press release from TASO.
You wanted confirmation. If you want a notarized copy...well...you're gonna have a bad time.
"That is something that'll never happen." Statements like that are the epitome of complacency.
It's not being complacent, it's being realistic. There are far too many autonomous high school officiating organizations for it to be a realistic goal to bring them in under some "national standard".
Each state chooses how to run their high school athletics and officiating within their organization. They do not report to anyone, not even the NFHS.
Each state chooses which mechanics and rules in each sport to use. Not only do I see that changing any time in the future, I don't think it should be that way. Otherwise we wouldn't be playing football under NCAA rules and we wouldn't be using TASO mechanics which is superior to NFHS mechanics IMO.
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I came in late on the discussion but would like to share a few things.
I started as a freshman in college. It was easy money and fun and I learned from some great guys who were patient with me. We could not even count points for the first two years as we considered "trainees".
I remember being a very young D3 and thinking I could do any and all 4A and 5A games and the old, fat, D1's really should retire. I am sure D3's still think the same thing and they could be correct.
I went to every hell hole in the state as I worked in Lubbock, Austin, San Antonio, and East TX chapters. I learned from each of the chapters and have enjoyed some of the friendships to this very day. I have worked the lowest levels and had every 0-9 vs. 0-9 for years. I also screwed up every call possible in some form or fashion. I have mentors who listened, corrected, and I have tried to learn from them and correct my mistakes.
I am sure I still make plenty of mistakes but I try to do it while hustling and letting plays happen as opposed to making things happen.
There will never be a perfect system to keep new guys happy but some patience and willingness to learn will hopefully keep them around long enough to really enjoy what we do.
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I started as a freshman in college.
I had some advance placement, but I started college as a freshman, too. I think almost everybody did.
LOL
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+1 Neckbone