RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => National Football League => Topic started by: TXMike on September 24, 2012, 10:53:50 PM
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Wait till the morning comes...After the Monday night game, fairly or unfairly, the League will have to settle with the refs. This is not going to be pretty.
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We may have just seen the breaking point.
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You'd think maybe the refs would get better every game with practice and all that but no... it's the other way around
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Boy oh boy.
I imagine most of the refstripes community is logging on right about now.
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Let's be perfectly honest...was there 1 mistake made tonight that we have never seen a "real" NFL ref make? I don't think so.
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Situation and game management, I think
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Fair or not, I think there will be a massive outcry from fans, players and coaches after the games from this round. I agree the replacements have been under a much brighter spotlight however the mistakes from this weekend are going to turn the PR battle up to the point where I cannot see the NFL holding out any longer.
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Didn't get to watch the game tonight but was disgusted with the officiating in the Patriots/Ravens Game. Although not a bad as awarding a touchdown for Seattle, there are were at least two phantom defensive holding calls that extended Raven's drives that ending in touchdowns.
Hopefully this will create a atmosphere of compromise on both sides of the dispute.
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If you missed it, the final (well..except for the PAT) play in the Monday night game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTFMD5NX1Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTFMD5NX1Q)
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The final TD play was badly handled by the crew. First, I grant you that PI is rarely called on Hail Mary passes, but a two handed push causing the defender to fall should be called. Second, I really don't see how they could have ruled a simultaneous catch, the GB player clearly completed the catch before the Seattle receiver grabbed the ball. And I'm a Bears fan who always wants GB to lose.
I almost thought that the crew had been bought by the NFLRA to speed up the negotiations...
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The final TD play was badly handled by the crew. First, I grant you that PI is rarely called on Hail Mary passes, but a two handed push causing the defender to fall should be called. Second, I really don't see how they could have ruled a simultaneous catch, the GB player clearly completed the catch before the Seattle receiver grabbed the ball. And I'm a Bears fan who always wants GB to lose.
I almost thought that the crew had been bought by the NFLRA to speed up the negotiations...
My emphasis added above in bold.
Make sure you fully understand the completed portion of your statement above. Just getting your hands on the ball is not a completion. You musty return to the ground in control of the ball. It could be argues that both players had control when they came to the ground. Does anyone know if there is a "when in doubt" ruling for this type of play?
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A catch in the NFL is defined differently than in the NCAA or NFL. I've no idea personally what the correct ruling would be at that level. I guess we'll find out later today from the League office.
These guys have all officiated at a higher level than I likely ever will. No matter what one's personal opinion is about them, they are out there doing the job assigned. I am reluctant to criticize anymore than I want to be critiqued by some fan in the stands this Friday night.
If the players are truly vexed over all this the remedy is simple- don't take the field next Sunday. Declare it a workplace safety issue under their contract and let the lawyers sort it out.
I doubt they will as they want that game check.
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The NFL rule in that situation says that it's only simultaneous possession if both players gain control of the ball at the same time. If one guy gets control first and then maintains it throughout the process of completing the catch, without ever losing his control, it's his ball, full stop, can't ever be simultaneous possession no matter what the other guy does.
What I suspect has happened is that the one guy who ruled TD flashed back in the heat of the moment to the NCAA rule, which doesn't have such a provision, and that's what got him thinking that simultaneous possession was a possible call. There was something else like that during one of the 1pm games on Sunday where a receiver went up for a catch, got one foot down, then kicked the pylon with his other foot and got ruled out of bounds; except in the NFL, the pylon is by rule neither inbounds nor out and what matters is where the foot eventually comes down.
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Actually, now that I think about it, I don't know if the requirement of maintaning possession through the process while going to the ground applies when an opponent is attempting to secure the ball. If so, then it would have been a catch and not an interception. It still should have been OPI.
As to criticizing fellow officials, they gave up that part of the brotherhood advantage when they decided to become scabs.
I really want to hear what the league has to say.
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My two cents worth (if THAT much): This all may have happened on the last play of regulation, but it wasn't the only play in regulation. If I had the MVP of the league last year and the highest scoring offesnse in the league last year and I let that MVP take 8-9 (I lost count) sacks and come up with zero points after 15 minutes of possession in the first half, I'm not in the best position to be criticizing anyone but myself for having to wait until the last play to pull out a victory.
Reminds me of the time my child did sub-par work for a whole semester and failed a course by one point on the final, and tried to blame the teacher for his 'F'.
I personally think whatever the initial call on the field was, the replay would not have overturned it. Which means the call that stood was made without the benefit of 7 different angles at super slo-motion.
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I'm not a professional league ref, and never will be. But every fibre of my being looked at the live ball angle, and saw two things:
a) OPI
b) Interception.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/552132_3825367354522_1258266647_n.jpg)
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As I understand the NFL replay, the call on the field could not be reviewed in either case. And yes, GB had 59:50 minutes to win, but still this was a very bad situation officiating-wise.
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The NFL has spoken so now everyone can shut up and move in..nothing to see here. ;-) Some are saying this supports the way the game ended. All I can say is those folks must be Seahawks fans.
The NFL's statement:
In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.
Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.
While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.
When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.
Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.
Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.
The result of the game is final.
Applicable rules to the play are as follows:
A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.
Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:
A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).
When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:
Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:
Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
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"While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay."
Is this right? I know it wouldnt end the game in NCAA. Not sure about NFL but OPI isn't a loss of down, is it?
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Is this right? I know it wouldnt end the game in NCAA. Not sure about NFL but OPI isn't a loss of down, is it?
No LOD, but time runoff?
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NFL 8-2-b says "If there is a foul by the offense, there shall be no extension of the period. If the foul occurs on the last play of the half, a score by the offense is not counted."
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If you missed it, the final (well..except for the PAT) play in the Monday night game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTFMD5NX1Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTFMD5NX1Q)
Thanks Mike, I saw it about 99 times on Sportcenter this afternoon. They did a whole hour on the refs.
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Thanks, mishatx!
Even though they knew what they were getting in to, I feel bad for the official. Gotta be lousy to have sportscenter putting up a graphic with your name saying that junior college is the highest you'd ever worked before. (On the other hand, I can certainly see the other side of the coin, namely: if you've only done junior college....)
But even at the highschool (and jr college) level, guys should know that on a play like that, with two officials standing over that mass, you gotta have some communication--or at least some eye contact---before you go up with your own signal.
That's the part that confuses me. I can see being confused by some of the different rules/enforcements. Or having trouble adjusting to the speed or the yelling coaches. But making eye contact with a fellow official in the endzone on something like that is is pretty basic at every level.
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I would like to say that the lack of communication might be due to the fact that this crew probably hasn't been together that long, but I can't. Even in games in which you are a last minute replace on a crew with whom you've never worked, it is a basic mechanic to check with other officials - especially one as close to the play as you were. If he disagrees, then that can be discussed, if he agrees, it's a shared decision and more defensible.
Most of the problems I'm seeing with the replacement officials can be attributed to a lack of confidence. They are not accustomed to the stage on which they find themselves (and nothing can prepare you for it in advance). They look like I must have looked on my first Varsity game, during which I kept thinking to myself "Maybe the coach is right and that SHOULD have been a holding call."
The fact that they know they have hardly any support outside of their own replacement ranks is also contributing to this. Only time in this assignment will give them the confidence they lack and the NFLRA (which must be secretly - if not publicly - revelling in this aftermath) may be just the ones to ensure they get the time they need.
Still think the Packers lost the game in accordance with the rules.
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I'm sure the fact that Packers QB was sacked 8 times in the 1sthalf had nothing to do with the loss.
Looks like it is coming to an end, with the "real" refs possibly taking the field this weekend.
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The NFL Rule reference is actually 3-8-2-b. Not Rule 8.
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NBC seems to be beating the drum pretty hard but Costas said on tonight's news it won't be before next week.
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Once the replacements to the replacements return to the field, I give the media 1/2 a quarter before they return to their usual bashing of missed calls. I really hope none of them are cocky. "Move over boys, let us pros show you how it's done." Karma will bite them hard if they have that attitude. Troy Aikman is warming up.
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According to the news reports they are back starting tonight..................
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Yep, no more ref mistakes will be made this season. LOL
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NFL Officiating is a glass house at which the regular refs gleefully threw stones when it was occupied by replacements. Now they have to live in that house. It won't be long until they start whining about how drafty it is in there.
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Unfortunately, those of us in the high school and D3 ranks are the ones that pay the price for the replacement referee situation. Announcers were constantly referring to the referees as 'High School and D3' referees which, while true, makes us the targets of angry NFL fans. I work in WI and did a Freshman football game last night and the anger toward us from the coaches and fans was noticeable from the start. Many grumblings about 'replacement refs' and 'just like Packer game'.... Just another consequence of things out of our control, but it is a little frustrating for me.
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There's people outside the lines talking? ;)
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Yep, no more ref mistakes will be made this season. LOL
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Unfortunately, those of us in the high school and D3 ranks are the ones that pay the price for the replacement referee situation. Announcers were constantly referring to the referees as 'High School and D3' referees which, while true, makes us the targets of angry NFL fans. I work in WI and did a Freshman football game last night and the anger toward us from the coaches and fans was noticeable from the start. Many grumblings about 'replacement refs' and 'just like Packer game'.... Just another consequence of things out of our control, but it is a little frustrating for me.
Yeah, I'm awfully tired of hearing multiple "replacement referee" jokes before the game, then again leaving the game, and from the stands during the game...
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The honeymoon will be over the first time the regs miss one on Sunday.
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Now that he is not working for the NFL, I guess he is free to speak.
http://www.tmz.com/2012/09/27/lance-easley-nfl-replacement-ref/
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--replacement-ref-defends-call.html
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After watching Browns/Ravens last night, I have to say that the game certainly went smoother.
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You mean smooth like the fights they had, or the smooth part where they flagged the coach, or maybe when they were fixing to enforce a penalty wrong and you could see the field communicator tell the wing official to stop them. ( that came from upstairs) or how about the penalty with 2 seconds left that gave Cleveland another chance when the game should have been over. Your right. Much smoother
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Crew on the Green Bay / New Orleans game is receiving a warm welcome back here in the 4th Qtr. I think they were screaming to bring back the replacements.
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You mean smooth like the fights they had, or the smooth part where they flagged the coach, or maybe when they were fixing to enforce a penalty wrong and you could see the field communicator tell the wing official to stop them. ( that came from upstairs) or how about the penalty with 2 seconds left that gave Cleveland another chance when the game should have been over. Your right. Much smoother
The game was definitely a lot smoother than a lot of games in the previous 3 weeks. As far as the final penalty for unnesseacary roughness, the penalty was properly enforced as it was committed while the pass was in the air.