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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: ck4597 on September 27, 2012, 11:27:27 AM
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From a pre-game quiz...
3rd/9 B29. The score is A27-B27. B44 intercepts A16's pass on B's 4 and his momentum carries him into B's end zone where he fumbles. The ball is muffed by A65 on B's 1 and rolls out of bounds in B's end zone. Time expires in the fourth quarter during the down...
Safety and 2 points for B...game over???
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From a pre-game quiz...
3rd/9 B29. The score is A27-B27. B44 intercepts A16's pass on B's 4 and his momentum carries him into B's end zone where he fumbles. The ball is muffed by A65 on B's 1 and rolls out of bounds in B's end zone. Time expires in the fourth quarter during the down...
Safety and 2 points for B...game over???
IMO- this is not a safety (See Exception below). The spot is where the catch was made. Time has expired. We now have OT.
8.5.ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:
a. A runner carries the ball from the field of play to or across his own goal
line, and it becomes dead there in his team’s possession.
EXCEPTION: When a defensive player intercepts an opponent’s forward pass; intercepts
or recovers an opponent’s fumble or backward pass; or an R player catches or
recovers a scrimmage kick or free kick between his 5-yard line and the goal line, and
his original momentum carries him into the end zone where the ball is declared dead
in his team’s possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs
to the team in possession at the spot where the pass or fumble was inter cepted or
recovered or the kick was caught or recovered.
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I agree: this play meets the conditions of the momentum exception.
- Catch/recovery inside the 5 YL,
- Momentum takes runner into EZ,
- Ball becomes dead in team possession in EZ or goes OOB in EZ.
Given the way the NFHS momentum exception is written, the intervening action is irrelevant.
I will point out that, had this play NOT involved momentum, the original case does not have enough info to determine whether you have a safety or TB.
Again, assuming no momentum exception:
- If A65 muffs a grounded fumble, then A's muff imparts a new force, yielding a TB.
- If A65 muffs an ungrounded fumble, then B's fumble is the force that puts the ball in the EZ, yielding a safety (and a game-ending score).
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B fumbles into the field of play and IMO A buts a new force into the endzone - thus a safety???
What is the squiggley lines?
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Is the intent here to reward B if the ball becomes dead in the end zone if the ball remains in the end zone and does not come out? If the ball comes out and A muffs it while grounded, does this not impart a new force? Thus, if B then recovers it would be a touchback.
If the ball comes out of the EZ, then we have to consider force when it returns. I know the momentum exception states "...and his original momentum carries him into the end zone where the ball is declared dead
in his team’s possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone...".
I interpret this as the ball is in the EZ because of the momentum. If the ball comes out of the EZ, and then returns into the EZ, have to consider force. In the case above, I would have to rule this a touchback.
Thoughts?
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I agree with TB....I was getting my teams and goal lines confused!!
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Team A forced a fumble over B's goal line, and the ball went OOB in the end zone. Touchback.
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Is the intent here to reward B if the ball becomes dead in the end zone if the ball remains in the end zone and does not come out? If the ball comes out and A muffs it while grounded, does this not impart a new force? Thus, if B then recovers it would be a touchback.
If the ball comes out of the EZ, then we have to consider force when it returns. I know the momentum exception states "...and his original momentum carries him into the end zone where the ball is declared dead
in his team’s possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone...".
I interpret this as the ball is in the EZ because of the momentum. If the ball comes out of the EZ, and then returns into the EZ, have to consider force. In the case above, I would have to rule this a touchback.
Thoughts?
I agree with all of this if the fumble had been grounded, but the OP does not tell us the status of the ball. The ball is always forced into the EZ. The first time the ball went into the EZ, it was forced in by the run but momentum applied. Momentum expired as soon as the ball came out of the EZ. The second time the ball went into the EZ, it was forced in by B's fumble if the fumble was still in flight or by A's muff it had been grounded. IMHO it would be a safety if the fumble was still in flight when muffed, or it would be a TB if the fumble had been grounded when muffed.
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I agree with all of this if the fumble had been grounded, but the OP does not tell us the status of the ball. The ball is always forced into the EZ. The first time the ball went into the EZ, it was forced in by the run but momentum applied. Momentum expired as soon as the ball came out of the EZ. The second time the ball went into the EZ, it was forced in by B's fumble if the fumble was still in flight or by A's muff it had been grounded. IMHO it would be a safety if the fumble was still in flight when muffed, or it would be a TB if the fumble had been grounded when muffed.
Exactly right. Momentum ended when the ball left the EZ. Now it's an issue of who's force put the ball in the EZ the last time. If B, safety, game over. If A, touchback, and we go to OT.