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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: BoBo on September 28, 2012, 11:08:30 AM

Title: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: BoBo on September 28, 2012, 11:08:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpzsm7p33js&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: Golfdock on September 28, 2012, 11:40:07 AM
Rule 6-1-9 states "The kicker of a free kick may not be blocked until he has advanced five yards beyond his restraining line or the kick has touched a player, an official or the ground." So this doesn't apply. What are your thoughts on the call?
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: Diablo on September 28, 2012, 12:16:15 PM
Rule 6-1-9 states "The kicker of a free kick may not be blocked until he has advanced five yards beyond his restraining line or the kick has touched a player, an official or the ground." So this doesn't apply. What are your thoughts on the call?

I think the crew is calling the hit a personal foul (unnecessary roughness), not an 6-1-9 infraction.

But, I'm not sure about the crew's penalty enforcement.  R announces 15 yard penalty, first down for Utah State (the offending-receiving team).  Play-by-play reads the next down as first and 10 for Utah State at USU-45. 
Shouldn't that penalty be enforced at the previous spot and replay the down?
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: BoBo on September 28, 2012, 12:54:53 PM
live ball treated as dead ball
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TxSkyBolt on September 28, 2012, 01:16:50 PM
No way.  This is a live ball PF during a free kick.  Basic spot is previous spot.  Cannot "tack-off" fouls by receiving team.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: JasonTX on September 28, 2012, 02:01:53 PM
live ball treated as dead ball

No such thing as live ball treated as dead ball when the foul is a personal foul.  7 guys and we can't get the penalty correct?  Go back to basics and walk youreself through this and you'll get it right.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: Kalle on September 28, 2012, 03:38:27 PM
I wonder how they managed to screw this one up. Live ball personal foul by team B during a free kick, enforcement is governed by rule 10-2-2-d-4-a. 15 yards from the previous spot, team A FK from A-50.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: kerryman71 on September 28, 2012, 09:07:44 PM
Did they have a guest student commentator from the chess club or something?  (Not that there's anything wrong with chess)

John
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: NoVaBJ on September 28, 2012, 11:35:51 PM
Did they have a guest student commentator from the chess club or something?  (Not that there's anything wrong with chess)

Chess actually has a thicker rulebook than football, believe it or not.

--Associate National Tournament Director, United States Chess Federation
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: 110 on September 29, 2012, 07:45:25 AM
Chess actually has a thicker rulebook than football, believe it or not.

--Associate National Tournament Director, United States Chess Federation

Used to be a tourney player in my youth. Can't imagine chess having that many rules, to be honest.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: dvasques on September 29, 2012, 10:26:43 AM
I don't know about the rest of the game after that but the video ends right after the officials blow the whole thing dead before the snap...
maybe someone realized what happened and corrected it
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: Kalle on September 29, 2012, 12:35:29 PM
maybe someone realized what happened and corrected it

I hope so - I would assume the team A coach was pretty livid.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: Diablo on September 29, 2012, 02:33:52 PM
I don't know about the rest of the game after that but the video ends right after the officials blow the whole thing dead before the snap...
maybe someone realized what happened and corrected it

This play-by-play
http://espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=322660036&period=4
has Utah St putting the ball in play 1/10 @ their own 45 with 1:43 in the fourth quarter.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on September 30, 2012, 11:38:57 AM
Wonder why this one and all other videos of this play are now UNAVAILABLE on youtube?
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: fencewire on September 30, 2012, 01:17:50 PM
just watched again from the link in the OP with no issues.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on September 30, 2012, 01:24:06 PM
Weird!  That link and everyone like it showed "Unavailable" message awhile ago
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: allen on October 01, 2012, 03:58:22 PM
Mike, what's your take on this?  Good flag?
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on October 01, 2012, 04:40:18 PM
I think the definition of "defenseless player" is getting wider and wider each week.  It certainly does not look like the Team B player led with the helmet although the 2 helmets did make contact.  If that kicker had been on Team B and a Team A blocker hit him like that, would we flag?  If that kicker had been a ball carrier and a tackler hit him like that, would we flag?   

Monday morning QB I say no flag.  At that moment, seeing those helmets hit and with all the pressure on everyone to flag "targeting", I can understand the flag. 
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: Etref on October 01, 2012, 05:30:50 PM
Most coaches have adopted the "defenseless player" is only one of their players. All other teams cannot be a defenseless player................... hEaDbAnG
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: zebra99 on October 02, 2012, 10:20:28 AM
I believe this is a foul.  You don't have to be a defenseless player.  Sure looks like he's using the crown of his helmet to target, especially when he goes upstairs.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on October 02, 2012, 10:26:15 AM
Are you saying that hits with the shoulder, forearm, etc that are high on someone other than a defenseless player are fouls?  I agree 100% if you judge the hitter used his helmet, you have a foul, regardless of who he hits.  But hits, not using the helmet, that happen to be high on a ball carrier, blocker, potenial tackler, etc?
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: zebra99 on October 02, 2012, 10:46:45 AM
Are you saying that hits with the shoulder, forearm, etc that are high on someone other than a defenseless player are fouls?  I agree 100% if you judge the hitter used his helmet, you have a foul, regardless of who he hits.  But hits, not using the helmet, that happen to be high on a ball carrier, blocker, potenial tackler, etc?

Nope - not saying that.  I just think he used his helmet and hit the guy right in the chin. He actually went down a little bit then up into the chin with his helmet instead of staying down.  It doesn't really matter what his hands/arms are doing.  In this day and age "When, in question...".  The fact that we're debating it means it's "in question".  This would be supported by the vast majority of, if not all, the supervisors.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on October 02, 2012, 10:51:35 AM
I have no doubt it would be supported but the other side of that is...if it had NOT been flagged, would the covering officials have received a downgrade?
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: zebra99 on October 02, 2012, 10:53:10 AM
I have no doubt it would be supported but the other side of that is...if it had NOT been flagged, would the covering officials have received a downgrade?

yes, IMHO
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: 110 on October 02, 2012, 11:18:16 AM
Here's my thought on a "defenceless" player. I'd deem that a player who by his own actions, or the actions of another, reduced his ability to sustain contact. I'd NOT deem it so to a player who by his own stupidity isn't ready to play football.

I'm out of touch with NFHS rules some five years, now, but I recall a "centre protection" clause for long snappers. Well, I occasionally have some coach tell his kid to hang their head for the entire play trying to induce a penalty. *facepalm*
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on October 02, 2012, 11:29:40 AM
The Team B player can't go low (it was a kick down).  He has a guy who is trying to get in position to make a play on the onside kick and he is going to keep him from getting in that position.  The kicker, who apparently thinks he is back on the soccer field "protecting the ball", got blown up due to his own lack of preparedness.  If you judge the Team B player used his helmet in the hit, then it has to be flagged.  Agree 100%. But I also know that helmets hit each other and hit other body parts just by the nature of the game at times.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: BankerRef on October 02, 2012, 05:31:24 PM
Is the hit by #51 of Utah State really any different than the hit by #27 of Co State on #7 right after that?  Of course the hit by #27 is clearly illegal under the rules since the kickers were not eligible to touch yet and therefore could not block.
Title: Re: Kicker gets rocked on onside kick
Post by: TXMike on October 02, 2012, 06:48:20 PM
That is a GREAT question!      :thumbup     :bOW
 
Of course I have never done this myself  (   ;D   ) but I wonder if the covering officials were so caught up in 51's blowup that they did not even see the other hit?