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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: cbrunnjo on October 12, 2012, 06:44:39 AM
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Does anyone provide the snapper protection when the QB is in shotgun formation?
This is not a scrimmage kick formation.
I am trying to find it in the Rule and Case Book but I can't find it.
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Does anyone provide the snapper protection when the QB is in shotgun formation?
This is not a scrimmage kick formation.
I am trying to find it in the Rule and Case Book but I can't find it.
Snapper gets protection when the offense is in scrimmage kick formation (someone is 7 yards away to receive the snap). In shotgun, the QB is normally LESS than 7 yards.
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That is exactly what I thought but some more seasoned veterans were arguing with me and they say anytime the QB is in shotgun formation we have to provide protection.
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On a side note when a QB is less than 7 yards and tries to punt or quick from that formation he is not in a legal kick formation and roughing the kicker is basically null and void. Had this a couple of years ago and the coach went nuts until I explained it to him. Good way to lose your best player coach.
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well, a kicker is a kicker when he kicks it & will be roughing unless contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.
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he is not in a legal kick formation and roughing the kicker is basically null and void.
Where in the name of Radar O'Reilly did you get THAT interpretation?
Rule: 2-32-8
ART. 8 . . . A kicker is any player who legally punts, drop kicks or place kicks. A player becomes a kicker when his knee, lower leg or foot makes contact with the ball. He continues to be the kicker until he has had reasonable opportunity to regain his balance or until after a free kick, he has advanced 5 yards beyond his free-kick line or the kick has touched the ground or any other player.
the coach went nuts until I explained it to him. Good way to lose your best player coach.
I would have went nuts too. Good way to lose games when the coach figures out he got bluffed and turns your explanation in to the state office/supervisor of officials.
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On a side note when a QB is less than 7 yards and tries to punt or quick from that formation he is not in a legal kick formation and roughing the kicker is basically null and void. Had this a couple of years ago and the coach went nuts until I explained it to him. Good way to lose your best player coach.
"Bobo": "Tampa" and "HL" are right. don't confuse scrimmage kick formation requirements surrounding snapper protection with roughing the kicker protection. A punter does not have to be any required distance behind the LOS to get the protection against contact as described in, and under the limitations of, 9-4-5.
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Good thing I was away from the computer this morning! I would have gone through the screen on this one. Thank you gentlemen for dispelling this nonsense.
Now, had he said a QB quick kicking from less than 7 yards means you can't use the numbering exception, I would be in complete agreement. But a punter than doesn't get protection on RTK because he wasn't in scrimmage kck formation? Wow, where do these things start?
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Good thing I was away from the computer this morning! I would have gone through the screen on this one. Thank you gentlemen for dispelling this nonsense.
I wondered where you were...and knew this would get your attention!
Easy coach; we (officials), as always, have your back ;D
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On a side note when a QB is less than 7 yards and tries to punt or quick from that formation he is not in a legal kick formation and roughing the kicker is basically null and void.
I think you're misapplying what you heard.
If a QB receives the snap, rolls out to the left, looks to run for the first down, but instead kicks the ball on the run, right before being tackled, this is NOT the same protection as a kicker who receives the ball in kick formation and clearly is going to kick the ball.
Much the same as that we allow a QB to get tackled JUST AFTER throwing a pass, if the contact is unavoidable. In this situation there is no flag for roughing the passer.
Similarly, if a player 'all of a sudden' becomes a kicker, when it was not apparent he was going to kick, the protection is similar to that of a passer. A late hit is definitely going to get a flag, but a hit JUST AFTER the kick was kicked, that is unavoidable, would not get the protection as a kicker normally would.
There is a case book play on this, I'll find it.
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I think you're misapplying what you heard.
Not at all. Where in that post did it say anything about a QB rolling out? It said a QUICK KICK from a shotgun. A QB rolling out and then deciding to kick is NOT a quick kick. A quick kick is exactly what it says: the QB receives the snap and immediately (thus the QUICK) punts the ball (thus the KICK) - QUICK KICK.
ANY kicker gets protection unless the contact is unavoidable because it was not reasonably certain a kick would be made. Since the QB's actions in a QUICK KICK are immediatley obvious, his protection would be be like any other kicker.
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ANY kicker gets protection unless the contact is unavoidable because it was not reasonably certain a kick would be made. Since the QB's actions in a QUICK KICK are immediatley obvious, his protection would be be like any other kicker.
A QUICK KICK is meant as DECEPTION. It is NOT OBVIOUS that the QB is going to kick the ball. The play is meant to look like a regular play, but the QUICK KICK is something that 'comes out of nowhere' and would NOT offer regular kicker protection to the QB/K.
A QB rolling out is also a QUICK KICK. I don't understand your definition.
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A QUICK KICK is meant as DECEPTION. It is NOT OBVIOUS that the QB is going to kick the ball. The play is meant to look like a regular play, but the QUICK KICK is something that 'comes out of nowhere' and would NOT offer regular kicker protection to the QB/K.
A QB rolling out is also a QUICK KICK. I don't understand your definition.
'Quick kick' is not a rule-book term, it's a coaching term. I would encourage you to trust a kicking coach regarding the meaning of that term.
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A QUICK KICK is meant as DECEPTION. It is NOT OBVIOUS that the QB is going to kick the ball. The play is meant to look like a regular play, but the QUICK KICK is something that 'comes out of nowhere' and would NOT offer regular kicker protection to the QB/K.
Once the kicker actually kicks the ball, it's obvious to the world he's a kicker, whatever happened before. I might be willing to let contact immediately after the kick slide in a short punt formation or a rugby kick situation. But cleaning the guy's clock after the ball is clearly away and the playrs has a chance to alter course? ^flag All day, any day, regardless of how the kick came to be a kick.
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Snapper gets protection when the offense is in scrimmage kick formation (someone is 7 yards away to receive the snap). In shotgun, the QB is normally LESS than 7 yards.
Back to the original purpose of the post. The kicker must be 10 yards behind the snapper in punt formation or the holder 7 yards behind the snapper with a kicker in position to kick to give protection to the snapper. A QB in the shotgun formation 7 yards behind the snapper does not afford protection to the snapper.
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Back to the original purpose of the post. The kicker must be 10 yards behind the snapper in punt formation or the holder 7 yards behind the snapper with a kicker in position to kick to give protection to the snapper. A QB in the shotgun formation 7 yards behind the snapper does not afford protection to the snapper.
Just discovered something this week while researching a question that came up in one of our meetings. Was asked can the holder catch and place the ball from a crouch ie. knee is not touching ground and never touches the ground and then the kicker legally kick PAT or FG. Posted this on Arbiter Forum along with the only place I found anything in rule book about the holder and his knee was in the definition of a scrimmage kick formation. General consensus was that it would be legal for holder to do this but due to a quirk in the rule it would not qualify as a scrimmage kick formation therefore negating numbering exception and snapper protection. Personally I don't think this was what was intended but instead was phrased as holder with knee on the ground to prevent someone from claiming the standing QB who was 7 yds behind line was actually a holder and the deep back 3 yds behind him was the intended kicker ala A11.
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...Personally I don't think this was what was intended but instead was phrased as holder with knee on the ground to prevent someone from claiming the standing QB who was 7 yds behind line was actually a holder and the deep back 3 yds behind him was the intended kicker ala A11.
You mean "The offense that must not be named?"
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Personally I don't think this was what was intended but instead was phrased as holder with knee on the ground to prevent someone from claiming the standing QB who was 7 yds behind line was actually a holder and the deep back 3 yds behind him was the intended kicker ala A11.
It's EXACTLY what was intended. A holder without a knee on the ground has many more options than a holder with a knee down. The numbering exception is made available to those teams that are willing to give up those options and protect a kicker and the holder. If you want the exception, then you make a choice to have your knee down, forcing you to rise if you want to do anything other than hold.