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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: latinib on November 05, 2012, 06:47:27 PM
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As A breaks the huddle, B realizes they only have 10 players on the field. Prior to the snap, B11 enters the field on A's side of the line and is still on A's side of the line when the ball is snapped. B11 proceeds to B's side of the line without participating but does participate after crossing it. At a minimum, we have live ball illegal substitution. Do we also have illegal participation?
I contend that B11 became a player before he participated due to 2-32-15: "... A team member entering the field to fill a player vacancy remains a substitute until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone." Since he participated as a player, he doesn't meet any of the criteria in 9-6 for illegal participation and all we have is illegal substitution. I'm a relative newbie and have been told that I need to call illegal participation. I welcome your thoughts.
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Do you own a Case Book?
3.7
If an entering substitute is not on his team’s side of the neutral zone at the snap, illegal substitution is considered to have occurred simultaneously with the snap.
If he then participates, it becomes a live-ball foul, illegal participation.
(3-7-6; 9-6-4c)
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Ump, might want to read 3.7.5 Situation B as it is right on point with this scenario. Says nothing about becoming an illegal participation foul.
IMO, I would not call this illegal participation if he was the 11th player
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IMO, I would not call this illegal participation if he was the 11th player
You beat me to it HL. This is NOT "IP"....just "IS"
Rule 2-32-15 describes the OP situation. While the entering sub "remains a substitute until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone", he becomes a PLAYER "when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or official, enters the huddle, is in position in a formation, or participates in the play". Since he became a player (A11) when he participates, his only violation is not being on his side of the neutral zone at the snap = Illegal Substitution (3.7.5B)
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You beat me to it HL. This is NOT "IP"....just "IS"
You are correct about the OP, which clearly states that the illegal sub is the 11th player.
In general, however, it could be either, depending on the situation. This is the point of the COMMENT referenced by FBUmp (and source of confusion).
If the sub is the 11th player (as in the OP), then all you've got is IS, whether he participates or no. His participation as the 11th player is not illegal, though his substitution is, since it was not completed prior to the snap.
If the sub is the 12th player, then you could have either IS or IP. If he does not participate during the down (say, turns and runs off the field), then all you have is IS. If he does participate (occupying a blocker, say), then that violates 9-6-4c. To have 12 participate during the down is IP.
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Wolverine was pretty clear-
B realizes they only have 10 players on the field
None of us do ourselves any favors here by extrapolating off the original posts.
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None of us do ourselves any favors here by extrapolating off the original posts.
I can tie the issue back to the OP: Wolverine was told that the foul in his play was IP. Someone was confused about when a sub running in late is IS and when it's IP.
I believe the discussion has helped to clarify the broader issue in a way that narrowly answering the OP ("No, it's just IS") might not have done.
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I've got a question on this:
Illegal Participation is a spot foul, enforced using the all but one principle.
Illegal Participation does not occur until the substitute player actually participates.
Play 1: A is 1st and 10 on the B15. Player B1 goes on the field at the B40, the ball is snapped. Player B1 is running to the B35, then the QB scrambles around to that side of the field, and B1 instead of continuing towards the B15, blindsides the QB at the B30.
Is the foul for illegal participation enforced from the B30/B32/B40 (wherever B1 decided to 'participate')?
Play 2: A is 1st and 10 on the B15. Player B1 goes on the field at the B40, the ball is snapped. Player B1 is running to the B35, then the QB comes around to that side of the field, the QB gets hit, loses the ball, B1 recovers the ball at the B35, turns around, and scores a touchdown.
Is the foul for illegal participation enforced from the B35?
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Actually bbeagle, its a live ball, basic spot foul. What is your basic spot on the two plays?
Play 1- running play
Play 2- loose ball play
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Actually, bbeagle, in both of your plays the foul is on Team B. Fouls by B are always from the basic spot.
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Actually bbeagle, its a live ball, basic spot foul. What is your basic spot on the two plays?
Play 1- running play
Play 2- loose ball play
Play 1 - running play - where the QB got sacked. B30.
Play 2 - loose ball play - where the QB fumbled the ball. Let's say the B30.
In both those cases, 15 yard penalty from the B30. 1st and 5 for A from the B15.
Is that right?
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Actually, bbeagle, in both of your plays the foul is on Team B. Fouls by B are always from the basic spot.
The 'foul' occurs at the point that B participates, but the foul is ENFORCED from the basic spot.
In Play 1, B 'fouled' at the B30/B32/B40, but it is ENFORCED from the B30.
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Play 1 - running play - where the QB got sacked. B30.
Play 2 - loose ball play - where the QB fumbled the ball. Let's say the B30.
In both those cases, 15 yard penalty from the B30. 1st and 5 for A from the B15.
Is that right?
1) :thumbup
2) :thumbup <corrected 10-3-3b>
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Play 1 - running play - where the QB got sacked. B30.
Play 2 - loose ball play - where the QB fumbled the ball. Let's say the B30.
In both those cases, 15 yard penalty from the B30. 1st and 5 for A from the B15.
Is that right?
What is the basic spot for a foul which occurs during a loose ball play? The previous spot!
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What is the basic spot for a foul which occurs during a loose ball play? The previous spot!
No. If it's a loose ball incomplete pass, then it's the previous spot.
Otherwise it's the end of the run before the loose ball (where we mark the bean bag).
Am I forgetting a loose ball behind the line of scrimmage - is this different?
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Curious- bb is correct, I cited the rule in my correction in the post. Foul is enforced from the end of the related run which is why we carry that white/blue/black/orange (name your state's color here) beanbag.
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Curious- bb is correct, I cited the rule in my correction in the post. Foul is enforced from the end of the related run which is why we carry that white/blue/black/orange (name your state's color here) beanbag.
What?!!!!!!!
A loose ball play is defined as a free or scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass, illegal kick or fumble made by A behind the neutral zone prior to a COP. It includes the run(s) that precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.
The basic spot for a foul during a loose ball play is the previous spot (except PSK fouls or RTP). The all-but-one tells us that all fouls are enforced from the basic spot except fouls by A behind the basic spot. In these plays, the fouls are by B - and in #2, it is during a loose ball play; so they are enforced from the basic (previous) spot. See 10.4.2A and 10.4.2D
I don't care what color bean bag you throw...........
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ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.
Previous spot was B15, fumble at B30. That is NOT in or behind the NZ.
ART. 3 . . . The end of the run is:
a. Where the ball becomes dead in the runner's possession.
b. Where the runner loses possession if his run is followed by a loose ball
ART. 4 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2.
You might not care what color it is but you better have it down 'cause this is why we carry the thing.
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Previous spot was B15, fumble at B30. That is NOT in or behind the NZ.
It's not? A starts at the B15, retreats to the B30 and fumbles?
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It's not? A starts at the B15, retreats to the B30 and fumbles?
If A starts on B's 15 and ends up on B's 30, that seems like behind the line of scrimmage to me...If it were A's 15 and fumbled on A's 30, THAT would be beyond the LOS, right?
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Ah crap, A's and B's and I need a friggin road map hEaDbAnG.
Play 2- Previous spot
Had it right the first time til I edited myself. >:(
And now why I remember hating reading case plays and word problems in math.
A train leaves Los Angeles with a load of apples at ten o'clock. Another train leaves Chicago with a load of oranges at nine o'clock. How many bananas did the monkey eat?
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Ump, might want to read 3.7.5 Situation B as it is right on point with this scenario. Says nothing about becoming an illegal participation foul.
IMO, I would not call this illegal participation if he was the 11th player
3.7 says it's IP and 3.7.5 says nothing about IP.
So we are supposed to ignore 3.7?
If he's on A's side when the ball is snapped and tackles the QB for a sack, you don't have IP?
To me, there's some contradiction here as I don't see anything that says 3.7 doesn't apply to this play.
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3.7 says it's IP and 3.7.5 says nothing about IP.
So we are supposed to ignore 3.7?
If he's on A's side when the ball is snapped and tackles the QB for a sack, you don't have IP?
To me, there's some contradiction here as I don't see anything that says 3.7 doesn't apply to this play.
FBUmp, I was confused too, until I looked up the rule reference in the 3.7 COMMENT: 9-6-4c concerns the 12th man.
So, again, if the sub is the 11th player and he participates (including sacking the QB), you still have IS, but no IP. Provided that he enters prior to the snap, he simply hasn't violated any provision of 9-6-4.
If the sub is the 12th player and he participates, then you have a violation of 9-6-4c.
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IF that's there reasoning, it should be spelled out better in the Case Book plays. As it is now, there's a contradiction.
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Ah crap, A's and B's and I need a friggin road map hEaDbAnG.
Play 2- Previous spot
Had it right the first time til I edited myself. >:(
Thank God! You guys had me thinking I was losing my mind... cRaZy
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Ump see 3.7.5 B, that's as direct as you will get.
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A couple of technical questions regarding Wolverine's OP and, assuming that in his plays, bbeagle means the entering sub is B11:
1. Does the sub actually enter during the down?
2. Does it matter (when he enters) for IP and/or IS - and why or why not?
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I had a play that "almost" happened.
On a try, team B has a late running sub and the ball is snapped before he gets on his side of the neutral zone. Kick is good.
We can put this on the kickoff, correct?
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We can put this on the kickoff, correct?
Correct. Foul occurred during a scoring play.
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FBUmp was absolutely correct in his original post regarding the original play. Illegal substitution at the snap if the entering team B substitute (11th man) is on the field but not on his side of the line of scrimmage. Then also illegal participation if he participates on either side of the line of scrimmage. Case Book 3.7-4 is certainly clear about this.
Case Book 3.7.5 Situation B only covers the first part of the play It doesn't continue on to include anything about the the 11th man then participating in the play.
Some of the variations of the original play that have been discussed would result in the illegal substitution foul being more advantages for Team A than the subsequent illegal participation foul (because of the basic spot differences if the running play ends way behind the line of scrimmage).
Illegal Substitution and Illegal Participation fouls are often confusing and misinterpreted -- but we should not make them worse than they are. Case Book 3.7.4 is clear and consistent with the rules -- we should go with that.
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There is no Case Play 3.7.4 in the 2012 Case Book. It goes from 3.7.3 Situation D to 3.7.5 Situation A.
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There is no Case Play 3.7.4 in the 2012 Case Book. It goes from 3.7.3 Situation D to 3.7.5 Situation A.
He's talking about 3.7 COMMENT, point #4, which is the same passage FBUmp has quoted.
dch, I will repeat what I told FBUmp. If you look up the rule citation in that passage (9-6-4c), you will see that this provision of the IP rule applies to 12 players (or more). It would NOT apply if the sub running on the field were the 11th player. Furthermore, NO provision of the IP rule would apply to that player running onto the field prior to the down and then participating. It simply is not IP (though is still IS).
3.7 COMMENT is an attempt to apply the rules in a helpful way, and does not provide any additional prohibitions beyond what you find in 9-6-4.
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He's talking about 3.7 COMMENT, point #4,
Ah, got it now. Agree he's the 11th player, don't think he can illegally participate.
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Ump see 3.7.5 B, that's as direct as you will get.
I've seen it. While 3.7.5 addresses the 11th player, 3.7 says nothing about the sub being the 11th or 12th player. Still think there needs to be further clarification as to how they want it called.
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Reddings Guide indeed says its illegal participation. Sorry it took so long to drag it out. Haven't had it with me.
Pg. 135: Wrong Side of Neutral Zone-No Participation
"Encroachment restrictions apply only to players and not to substitutes or replaced players. A team member who is entering the field to fill a player vacancy (when the team has less than 11 players on the field) must be on his team's side of the neutral zone prior to the snap or free kick. If the snap or free kick occurs while such a team member is on his opponent's side of the neutral zone he is considered to be a substitute, not a player. As a result (1) If he does not participate, it is a live-ball foul for Illegal Substitution simultaneous with the snap (previous spot enforcement), a five yard penalty (3-7-5); or (2) if he participates in any way by hindering an opponent, drawing coverage or touching the ball, it is a live-ball foul for illegal participation(9-6-3)"
Pg 138 "Example 10-24 Second and ten on Team B's 20 yard line. As Team A leaves their huddle and comes to the line, Team B realizes they have only 10 players on the field. B31 then enters the field and is on Team B's 25 yard line when the ball is snapped. During the play B31 (a) begins to participate while on Team A's side of the neutral zone, (b) doesn't begin to participate until he is on his side of the neutral zone, or (c) simply continues to run towards his side of the neutral zone but doesn't participate at all in the play.
Ruling In (a) and (b), because B31 participated, he is guilty of illegal participation, a 15 yard live-ball foul. In (c), B31 is flagged for a live-ball, five yard foul for illegal substitution because he was on the wrong side of the neutral zone at the snap and didn't participate in the play."
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I knew my stubbornness would come in handy eventually! nAnA
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Ah, I've got it now. 9.7 COMMENT #4 references the wrong rule. It should be 9-6-3, not 9-6-4c.
The operative part of 9-6-3 is that it prohibits a substitute from participating. The 11th man remains a substitute until he is on his side of the NZ. 2-32-15
Thus, if he fails to get to his team's side of the NZ prior to the snap, he remains a substitute (never becomes a player) and thus is prohibited from participating throughout the down.
HLinNC, thanks for following up on this point.
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Maven,
That is a good way to explain it. The "remains a substitute" vs being a player helps clarify the rules instead of just relying on the Case Book. Thanks.
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Maven,
That is a good way to explain it. The "remains a substitute" vs being a player helps clarify the rules instead of just relying on the Case Book. Thanks.
You're welcome. Just putting 2 and 2 together.
I make a living from explaining obscure concepts to people. The NFHS football rules are in my wheelhouse! :)
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Thus, if he fails to get to his team's side of the NZ prior to the snap, he remains a substitute (never becomes a player) and thus is prohibited from participating throughout the down.
OK, this is where this reasoning falls apart. The NZ doesn't disappear at the snap. In fact, it may even expand.
I agree, if he fails to get to his side of the NZ before participating, then yes, you have an IP foul, I get that, he never became a player. But if he gets to his side of the NZ, even if it is after the snap, he still got there and became a player rather than a sub. There is nothing in 2-32-15 that says he has to be on his side BEFORE the snap, only that he remains a sub until he gets to his side of the NZ.
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OK, this is where this reasoning falls apart. The NZ doesn't disappear at the snap. In fact, it may even expand.
I agree, if he fails to get to his side of the NZ before participating, then yes, you have an IP foul, I get that, he never became a player. But if he gets to his side of the NZ, even if it is after the snap, he still got there and became a player rather than a sub. There is nothing in 2-32-15 that says he has to be on his side BEFORE the snap, only that he remains a sub until he gets to his side of the NZ.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the substitute can "legalize" his participation by coming across the LOS to his side AFTER the snap but BEFORE to participating. He is, after all, still an illegal sub. And according to RR (quoted a few posts above by HLinNC), the play you're envisioning is still IP.
Pg 138 "Example 10-24 Second and ten on Team B's 20 yard line. As Team A leaves their huddle and comes to the line, Team B realizes they have only 10 players on the field. B31 then enters the field and is on Team B's 25 yard line when the ball is snapped. During the play B31 (a) begins to participate while on Team A's side of the neutral zone, (b) doesn't begin to participate until he is on his side of the neutral zone, or (c) simply continues to run towards his side of the neutral zone but doesn't participate at all in the play.
Ruling In (a) and (b), because B31 participated, he is guilty of illegal participation, a 15 yard live-ball foul. In (c), B31 is flagged for a live-ball, five yard foul for illegal substitution because he was on the wrong side of the neutral zone at the snap and didn't participate in the play."
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Hey, nobody ever answered my earlier questions about sub "B11"..............
A couple of technical questions regarding Wolverine's OP and, assuming that in his plays, bbeagle means the entering sub is B11:
1. Does the sub actually enter during the down?
2. Does it matter (when he enters) for IP and/or IS - and why or why not?
Hint: when does a down begin?
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And according to RR (quoted a few posts above by HLinNC), the play you're envisioning is still IP.
In that case, by the wording of the rule, I think Rogers (actually, George Demetriou) is wrong. The rule says he's a sub until he reaches his side of the NZ. It says nothing about having to do so BEFORE the snap.
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In that case, by the wording of the rule, I think Rogers (actually, George Demetriou) is wrong. The rule says he's a sub until he reaches his side of the NZ. It says nothing about having to do so BEFORE the snap.
It might: failure to complete the substitution prior to the snap is a foul. The substitution is illegal because it was not completed by the "deadline," and thus not completed at all. A sub who never becomes a player is still a sub.
On your reading, a team can complete a substitution AFTER the snap by having the sub cross the NZ to his own side. The rule does not say that either.
I agree that there is some ambiguity here (can a sub become a player after the snap?). However, RR's reading squares with the unrestricted scope of 3.7 COMMENT in a way that yours does not.