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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Gorby on October 28, 2017, 05:39:49 PM

Title: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: Gorby on October 28, 2017, 05:39:49 PM
Less than one minute remaining in the game with A trailing and driving inside B's 30 yard line.  A has no timeouts remaining.
 With the clock running A rushes to the LOS and takes the snap and legally grounds the pass to stop the clock.  However, two A players were not set before the snap, resulting in a legal shift at the snap. 

Question:  After the penalty administration, under 3-4-6, should I have started the clock on the ready?  Can A's illegal shift in this situation be interpreted as conversing time illegally? 
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: ncwingman on October 28, 2017, 05:44:21 PM
I would not. The clock stoppage was not due to the foul, it was due to the spike.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: VA Official on October 28, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
Less than one minute remaining in the game with A trailing and driving inside B's 30 yard line.  A has no timeouts remaining.
 With the clock running A rushes to the LOS and takes the snap and legally grounds the pass to stop the clock.  However, two A players were not set before the snap, resulting in a legal shift at the snap. 

Question:  After the penalty administration, under 3-4-6, should I have started the clock on the ready?  Can A's illegal shift in this situation be interpreted as conversing time illegally?

3-4-6 specifically says ďattempts to,Ē meaning there has to be intent to conserve time illegally. That didnít happen in this play.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: VALJ on November 01, 2017, 02:17:19 PM
This seems an "honest mistake" instead of an attempt to illegally conserve time.  Start it on the snap.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 01, 2017, 05:14:38 PM
I agree with everyone else. The foul in this case did not benefit A in any way. It only cost them 5 yards. Now, if they had been ahead, and gained an extra down (and accompanying :25), then it would be a different story. But then they most likely would not have spiked the ball.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 02, 2017, 07:17:56 AM
Welcome, Gorby, to our Forum. May you find it both enjoyable and informative. Four wisemen have already spoken and I share their opinions.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: bama_stripes on November 02, 2017, 07:32:46 AM
Welcome, Gorby, to our Forum. May you find it both enjoyable and informative. Four wisemen have already spoken and I share their opinions.

And I respectfully disagree.

Let's assume that when the play is over there is 0:01 (or 0:02 or 0:03 etc) remaining in the game.  It's obvious that time would have expired before the snap (or during th spike) if A had taken the necessary time to get all players legally set.

Are you really going to allow them to run another play gained by cheating?
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 02, 2017, 07:51:43 AM
And I respectfully disagree.

Let's assume that when the play is over there is 0:01 (or 0:02 or 0:03 etc) remaining in the game.  It's obvious that time would have expired before the snap (or during th spike) if A had taken the necessary time to get all players legally set.

IMHO, 3-4-6 could be applied if just the QB & snapper ran up and snapped/spiked the ball BUT if teammates were trying to get legally set AND the spike was legal, I'd start on snap. 

Are you really going to allow them to run another play gained by cheating?
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: The Roamin' Umpire on November 02, 2017, 08:45:39 AM
And I respectfully disagree.

Let's assume that when the play is over there is 0:01 (or 0:02 or 0:03 etc) remaining in the game.  It's obvious that time would have expired before the snap (or during th spike) if A had taken the necessary time to get all players legally set.

Are you really going to allow them to run another play gained by cheating?

Seconded. If a team is trying to conserve time by hurrying to the line for a spike, they have to do it legally.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: Magician on November 02, 2017, 09:01:49 AM
And I respectfully disagree.

Let's assume that when the play is over there is 0:01 (or 0:02 or 0:03 etc) remaining in the game.  It's obvious that time would have expired before the snap (or during th spike) if A had taken the necessary time to get all players legally set.

Are you really going to allow them to run another play gained by cheating?
I agree with this. I'm starting on the RFP and probably not being diligent about it so the offense has plenty of time to get set. This is exactly the type of play that caused NCAA to make this situation a false start so it could be subject to the 10-second runoff. A team gained an advantage in a bowl game by committing this foul when the entire team couldn't get set for a last second FG attempt. It did cause them to stop the clock for enforcement, but it gave the team plenty of time to get their FG team set and kick the game tying FG. They won in OT. Whether or not they did it intentionally, they still benefit from the foul from a clock perspective so start it on the RFP.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: KWH on November 03, 2017, 01:12:29 PM
And I respectfully disagree.

Let's assume that when the play is over there is 0:01 (or 0:02 or 0:03 etc) remaining in the game.  It's obvious that time would have expired before the snap (or during th spike) if A had taken the necessary time to get all players legally set.

Are you really going to allow them to run another play gained by cheating?

There was a similar Case Book play (it still may be in there)  that had this type of situation and the ruling stated
..."in this situation the Referee shall stop the clock, enforce the penalty, and wind the clock without allowing A the opportunity to snap the football and the game is over.
Thats pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: ncwingman on November 03, 2017, 02:41:27 PM
And I respectfully disagree.

Let's assume that when the play is over there is 0:01 (or 0:02 or 0:03 etc) remaining in the game.  It's obvious that time would have expired before the snap (or during th spike) if A had taken the necessary time to get all players legally set.

Are you really going to allow them to run another play gained by cheating?

Case Play 7.5.2 Situation F., Fouls Prior to "Spike", spells it out pretty clearly. It does come with the comment at the end that the Referee must determine if it was done intentionally or not. We're not going to agree on a generalized hypothetical here because it will vary on a case by case basis. If there's confusion and hurrying and somebody is just out of place at the snap, it's easy to see the cases where it's not intentional. If the QB alone runs up the to the ball, has the receiver snap it to him and spike it immediately without waiting for the rest of the team to catch up (6 bubbas chugging 80 yards down the field slowly, and not even close to the line when it's snapped) -- yeah, THAT'S intentional and I'd wind it on the ready.

Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: VA Official on November 03, 2017, 10:43:13 PM
Case Play 7.5.2 Situation F., Fouls Prior to "Spike", spells it out pretty clearly. It does come with the comment at the end that the Referee must determine if it was done intentionally or not. We're not going to agree on a generalized hypothetical here because it will vary on a case by case basis. If there's confusion and hurrying and somebody is just out of place at the snap, it's easy to see the cases where it's not intentional. If the QB alone runs up the to the ball, has the receiver snap it to him and spike it immediately without waiting for the rest of the team to catch up (6 bubbas chugging 80 yards down the field slowly, and not even close to the line when it's snapped) -- yeah, THAT'S intentional and I'd wind it on the ready.

Like you said, the case play clearly states the referee must determine if it was intentional. With the original play, it is plainly obvious IMO that this is not intentional. Therefore, clock is on the snap. The rule is in place to prevent teams from intentionally abusing the timing rules to gain an advantage. If the intent is not there, we canít invoke 3-4-6. I agree with your second scenario as being intentional, so 3-4-6 should be invoked there.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 04, 2017, 06:50:03 AM
With the original play, it is plainly obvious IMO that this is not intentional. Therefore, clock is on the snap.
I disagree.  Although I do agree that this is a pure judgment call, QB's are coached from the youth levels on "spike" plays to scan the formation, make sure that everyone is set then go.  If, like it appears here, he did not do that trying to hurry and save an extra second or two, that crosses into the intentional category.  Again, a judgment call, but if QB just takes the snap without checking his formation, I'd go on the RFP.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: dch on November 04, 2017, 01:11:00 PM
Judgement is involved with most of what we do.  We shouldn't give the team that fouled an advantage because of the foul. Wind the clock!
Title: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 04, 2017, 01:28:26 PM
What if, instead of not being set, there were not enough on the LOS?


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Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: NorCalMike on November 05, 2017, 10:17:52 PM
Maybe I am missing something here but with the new timing rule this doesn't B get to choose whether the clock starts on the snap or the ready?
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: VA Official on November 05, 2017, 10:34:14 PM
I disagree.  Although I do agree that this is a pure judgment call, QB's are coached from the youth levels on "spike" plays to scan the formation, make sure that everyone is set then go.  If, like it appears here, he did not do that trying to hurry and save an extra second or two, that crosses into the intentional category.  Again, a judgment call, but if QB just takes the snap without checking his formation, I'd go on the RFP.

I respect your reasoning. At the end of the day as you said, this is a judgment call. I can see both sides of the issue and both have standing IMO.

Judgement is involved with most of what we do.  We shouldn't give the team that fouled an advantage because of the foul. Wind the clock!

We also canít create rules that donít exist. 3-4-6 is very clear that we have to judge intent, not advantage gained. If you judge thereís no intent by the offender to abuse the timing rules, even if you donít want to give the team an advantage, you canít invoke 3-4-6. The question isnít ďdoes this team gain an advantageĒ itís ďdid this team intentionally try to abuse the timing rules?Ē

Maybe I am missing something here but with the new timing rule this doesn't B get to choose whether the clock starts on the snap or the ready?

The offended team can choose to start the clock on the snap if it would otherwise start on the ready since this is inside of 2 minutes of a half, as long as they accept the penalty. If we donít invoke 3-4-6, the clock is on the snap so there is no option.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 06, 2017, 06:47:01 AM
Maybe I am missing something here but with the new timing rule this doesn't B get to choose whether the clock starts on the snap or the ready?
The new rule is a "one way street". If the clock is scheduled to start on the ready, the offended team can choose to start on the snap. If the clock is scheduled to start on the snap, there is no choice by the offended but the ref could apply 3-4-6 ,if he ruled intent.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: bossman72 on November 07, 2017, 10:01:28 AM
I have one of my proposed rule changes for this scenario.  I don't really care if it gets passed or not, so this is at the bottom of the list of proposals I have.  But I figured I'd bring it out since it's relevant to the discussion:

3-4-2 The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal on a down beginning with a snap if the clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in Rule 3-4-3 or an untimed down:
          d. If Team A fouls while spiking the ball under rule 7-5-2e-Exception, the clock shall always start on the ready-for-play signal.

3-4-3 The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:
          e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete, unless 3-4-2d applies.

Rationale:
When the offense is spiking the ball, their main objective is to stop the clock to conserve time. I believe this should be executed by the offense free of foul to get the full benefit of the rule. Currently, if Team A is in an illegal formation, illegally in motion, or illegally shifting when they spike the ball, they would be penalized 5 yards, but the clock would start on the snap. This would enable them to run another play or send their field goal team onto the field without the fear of the half ending before they can snap the ball. They have effectively accomplished their goal of stopping the clock even though they did something illegal to do it.

With this rule change proposal, the clock would start on the ready for play signal and effectively neutralize the offenseís advantage in this situation.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: bossman72 on November 07, 2017, 02:57:55 PM
I agree with this. I'm starting on the RFP and probably not being diligent about it so the offense has plenty of time to get set. This is exactly the type of play that caused NCAA to make this situation a false start so it could be subject to the 10-second runoff. A team gained an advantage in a bowl game by committing this foul when the entire team couldn't get set for a last second FG attempt. It did cause them to stop the clock for enforcement, but it gave the team plenty of time to get their FG team set and kick the game tying FG. They won in OT. Whether or not they did it intentionally, they still benefit from the foul from a clock perspective so start it on the RFP.

Here it is:  UNC/TENN Music City Bowl 2010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo-wFI-aCZ4
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2017, 03:25:54 PM
That's not exactly the same thing. the foul in the video was illegal substitution. there were 11 players set for a second.
Plus, that doesn't seem to be intentional. So, help me understand the NCAA rule. Now, if A snaps the ball before A12 gets off the field, it's a 10 second runoff?
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 07, 2017, 05:20:08 PM
I disagree - this play is exactly the same thing.  The QB is looking directly at the mass of players with multiple replacement/replaced players still well in the field of play, looks back at the clock, put his hands on his helmet, immediately goes under center and calls for the snap.  You can't get any more intentional than that.  He intentionally did not wait until there were only 11 players in formation and for those 11 players to be set before calling for the ball.
Title: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2017, 05:26:12 PM
I disagree - this play is exactly the same thing.  The QB is looking directly at the mass of players with multiple replacement/replaced players still well in the field of play, looks back at the clock, put his hands on his helmet, immediately goes under center and calls for the snap.  You can't get any more intentional than that.  He intentionally did not wait until there were only 11 players in formation and for those 11 players to be set before calling for the ball.
But if you count, there were 11 players in the formation and all 11 were set. It’s easy to assume he thought the four running off would be off before the snap, or at least that the risk was worth the possible reward.  I can see a blatant false start being obvious, but these type plays are somewhat more difficult.


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Title: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2017, 05:30:54 PM
FWIW, I hope they don’t make us start taking time off the clock. The logistics of that would be a nightmare around here.


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Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: VA Official on November 08, 2017, 08:18:49 AM
FWIW, I hope they donít make us start taking time off the clock. The logistics of that would be a nightmare around here.


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Having a clock operator out in the country (where they've never even heard of a headset) try to understand what Bubba's trying to signal for zap 10 would be a 20 minute process. Some of the older clocks don't even allow you to set a new time on them until the current time has expired. Would be an absolute catastrophe.
Title: Re: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: SouthGARef on November 08, 2017, 03:44:34 PM
Having a clock operator out in the country (where they've never even heard of a headset) try to understand what Bubba's trying to signal for zap 10 would be a 20 minute process. Some of the older clocks don't even allow you to set a new time on them until the current time has expired. Would be an absolute catastrophe.

But for those of us with the needed equipment, holding back what is a necessary rule change because other areas don't have equipment is a bit puzzling.

The zap-10 rule is a necessary rule needed exactly for reasons like this. Teams gain too much of an advantage from fouling in the closing minutes.
Title: Clock Management - End of Game
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 09, 2017, 07:02:07 AM
Philosophically I agree with you, but from a practical standpoint, how big a problem is it? I can remember once in the past ten years when a rule like this would have made a difference.


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