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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Stinterp on November 28, 2017, 03:08:23 PM

Title: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Stinterp on November 28, 2017, 03:08:23 PM
Do any of your mechanics have the Linesman/Side Judge or Line Judge/Back Judge change sidelines to start the 3rd period?
If so/if not what is the reasoning?
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 28, 2017, 03:16:10 PM
Thankfully "NO", and hopefully "NEVER", as it's a dumb idea, usually suggested for all the wrong reasons.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: bama_stripes on November 28, 2017, 05:12:49 PM
We do in seven-man, don't in five-man.
Title: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 28, 2017, 07:04:16 PM
We have one crew in our district that does. Why I don’t know.


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Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: FLAHL on November 28, 2017, 08:02:04 PM
We don't do this.
We also don't have the R and U switch positions at halftime.
Title: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 28, 2017, 08:08:23 PM
We don't do this.
We also don't have the R and U switch positions at halftime.
Lol. I may try that


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Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: fudilligas on November 29, 2017, 06:48:57 AM

We also don't have the R and U switch positions at halftime.


why not make it real easy and have the R and BJ switch after every punt....this way neither official has to make a long run to the other end of the field....we can re-invent the old Sherlock Holmes cap with a white bill on one side and the black bill on the other so all the officials have to do is turn the cap around
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: centexsports on November 29, 2017, 08:41:03 AM
How about musical positions.   Rotate clockwise after every home team band song and and end to end/side to side after every visitor song.   But to add a special twist, the head coach and R switch after every UNC. aWaRd
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 29, 2017, 08:55:38 AM
This has been on the docket at the NFHS level before and may be again. NCAA currently does this. I'm against it.

 :)Possibly this could be followed by asking the fans to swap sides of field at halftime and then cheer for that sideline's team.....

 :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: (5-man crew)
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Rulesman on November 29, 2017, 10:45:16 AM
For high school, itís the dumbest thing Iíve ever heard. Many HS officials have a hard enough time mastering keys for one position. Now we want to ask them to master mechanics for another to be used in the same game? 👎👎👎
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 29, 2017, 10:58:04 AM
For high school, itís the dumbest thing Iíve ever heard. Many HS officials have a hard enough time mastering keys for one position. Now we want to ask them to master mechanics for another to be used in the same game?
From what I understand, NCAA passed this by a strong coach support as coaches have a strong majority on their rules committee. The same isn't true on the NFHS committee.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: prab on November 29, 2017, 11:05:54 AM
For high school, itís the dumbest thing Iíve ever heard. 👎👎👎

Having the side officials switch sides at half time may be dumb, but surely it's not the dumbest ever!

Do you remember the infamous 2009 "hash marks bisect the yard lines" flap?  How about the 2014(?) rule saying that the kicking team had to have at least 4 players on either side of the kicker on a free kick "from the RFP"? 

Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: KWH on November 29, 2017, 11:40:55 AM

If this is such a big important thing that the coaches need to see a different wing guy each half then the solution is simple.
Follow the Ralph Damren solution and simply have: The teams trade sides at halftime!

We all keep all our mechanics the same, and the coach gets to yell at both wings! Its a win-win!

Ralph, Need your help!
You will need to enhance this post a little  by explaining to the guys the proper procedure for the fans swapping sides during halftime crowning of the Prom Queen!

I think this procedure needs an experimental state to test it out.  How about Maine???
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Rulesman on November 29, 2017, 12:58:41 PM
Having the side officials switch sides at half time may be dumb, but surely it's not the dumbest ever!

Do you remember the infamous 2009 "hash marks bisect the yard lines" flap?  How about the 2014(?) rule saying that the kicking team had to have at least 4 players on either side of the kicker on a free kick "from the RFP"?
Top 3. 😂
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: riffraft on November 29, 2017, 01:42:53 PM
We have done this for the last two years in Arizona. Personally I HATE IT.

The first year they said we were doing it because the coaches asked for it. Now grant it, I only had a small sample, but none of the coaches I talked to asked for it. And on top of switching the H and L, we also switched the chains, so the mechanic wouldn't change. Believe me the coaches absolutely hated that having the chains moved because of the film being from only one side of the field.

So this year we do not switch the chains and we don't switch the mechanics, except for a few minor modification, which leave the chains unattended during punts (I know hard to believe).

I have heard through the grapevine (so not official), that we will continue to switch sides next season, but you will work H mechanics when you are with the chains and L mechanics when not. So you will have to learn two different mechanics. I know any official should be able to do this, but typically younger officials are L so they are not necessarily seasoned and this will just add to the learning curve.

Other than the higher ups in our organization and the AIA, I have not met any official who agrees with this decision. Many of us have expressed to the powers that be are great displeasure with this, both the first year and the second year of this experiment, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Personally I think it sends the wrong message. Supposedly the coaches wanted this because they didn't think they were getting even treatment from the officials. So by agreeing to switch at halftime you are telling the coaches, You are right you weren't being treated equally so we are fixing it.

Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ia-Ref on November 29, 2017, 06:12:28 PM
I start as the L then at half switch to the LJ.
No big deal for the past 3 seasons.  The coverages are about the same, except for the kicking game.
I heard Iowa almost did it this past season. I hope it happens with Fed. 

I also have NO DOUBT that coaches influence calls to their advantage.
Is there any research on what team the wing official flags the most?
I would certainly like to see it if there is and I would be surprised if it were not the team across the field from the wings.

Having to deal with both sidelines has become part of the game, usually in a positive way.  Sometimes not.

Embrace it, don't fear it.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ump33 on November 29, 2017, 08:23:19 PM

why not make it real easy and have the R and BJ switch after every punt....this way neither official has to make a long run to the other end of the field....we can re-invent the old Sherlock Holmes cap with a white bill on one side and the black bill on the other so all the officials have to do is turn the cap around
Many years ago back when colleges had JV teams, my father was on the ACC JV Officials Roster. He and two officials had a Friday afternoon JV game at Duke. They made arrangement with their HS Booking Agent to assign them in Greensboro for their HS game. My father was the R and the other 2 were U and BJ. Both teams were "airing it out" in the first quarter and the assigned BJ talked the U into switching in the second quarter. Midway thru the second quarter the original U wanted to switch back. Being that both teams were still "airing it out", the original BJ would not switch back.

My father remedied the situation for the second half. When the teams were moving left to right, he would be the R and his partner would be the BJ. After a COP and the teams moved right to left, my father would be the BJ and his partner would be the R. They worked the rest of the game switching between R & BJ. True story.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: bama_stripes on November 30, 2017, 06:10:54 AM
why not make it real easy and have the R and BJ switch after every punt....this way neither official has to make a long run to the other end of the field.

I do this sometimes in JH games when training new Rs.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 30, 2017, 09:51:18 AM
The proposals that I've seen include 5-man crews and larger for this.

Still against it.

Not against swapping positions with "newies" in sub-varsity games.

Time for some lobster chowder.  eAt&
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 30, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Still looking for a logical, practical or even rational reason for doing so.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Stinterp on November 30, 2017, 10:32:21 AM
Statistics show in HS football, the majority of fouls are called on the team on the other side of the field.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: prab on November 30, 2017, 10:34:39 AM
Still looking for a logical, practical or even rational reason for doing so.

I would like to submit a reason, which is neither logical, practical or even rational, but nevertheless may be closer to the truth than we would like to admit:  The NFL went to wide stripes, we (for the most part) went to wide stripes;  NFL went to black pants with a white stripe, we went to black pants with a white stripe;  NFL switches positions at half time, we ............. (fill in the blank).
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: stevegarbs on November 30, 2017, 03:26:33 PM
Illinois experimented with this during the 2017 season, supposedly at the request of the coaches. HL and LJ switched at the half, the chains stayed on the visitor's sideline, so you worked the mechanic based on which sideline you were on.

A survey was sent by the IHSA to the crew chiefs mid-season asking a series of questions about how the change affected officiating. The response was significantly on the side of "didn't help us, may have hurt our ability to officiate the game" so effective starting week 8 of the 9-game regular season crews were allowed to stay in the same wing positions the entire game. Which everyone immediately did! No one expects the experiment to be repeated next season.

My experience as a LJ was that it was no big deal and easy to adapt. I just hate working the chains so I was glad I only had to do it for 7 games!
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ralph Damren on December 01, 2017, 09:59:21 AM
I consider my position on the Rules Committee as representing both my state and that of officials. If a proposed rule improves either the safety or fairness of the game, I support it knowing that it'll require new training and mechanics of officials.

IMHO, both flip-flopping wings and adding the 40 second play clock will add a lot of busy work for officials ,not to mention confusion and consistency ,with very little improvement to our game.

While I'll be an opponent to either, should they pass, I would support adding them to rule 1-7       (the "state's right rule).

 :sTiR:
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: ElvisLives on December 01, 2017, 10:40:54 AM
I would like to submit a reason, which is neither logical, practical or even rational, but nevertheless may be closer to the truth than we would like to admit:  The NFL went to wide stripes, we (for the most part) went to wide stripes;  NFL went to black pants with a white stripe, we went to black pants with a white stripe;  NFL switches positions at half time, we ............. (fill in the blank).

Ah, while the basis of your theory is generally valid, you have the pants issue incorrect.  The NCAA went to black pants with white stripes for "cold weather" (only) in 2010, then full time in 2011.  The NFL did not change to black pants until sometime after that - perhaps as early as 2012.  I recall thinking, "This is the first time the NFL officials have followed the NCAA officials in anything."

But, yes, generally speaking, ideas and concepts tend to flow from the NFL to the NCAA to HS.  There is a reason for that.  The NFL is constantly evaluating and trying new ideas to improve officiating.  The NCAA does this, but to a far lesser degree.

The NFL went to 2" stripes many decades ago (probably over 40 years), when they started to get so much TV exposure.  The 1" stripes were hard to see on the TVs of the time, and
probably created moire patterns, too.  Took a long time, but the NCAA made the change for the same reason.  The 2" stripes look better on TV.


There is a reason the NFL switch sides at halftime, and I believe it was done to give the sideline officials 'equal' exposure to the teams.  The NFL has no issue with seeing the chains, etc.  The Power 5 conferences probably don't really have an issue with seeing the chains either, but the NCAA includes all of FBS, FCS, D2, D3, JCs, etc., for some of which it may be a problem.

Robert
 
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: KWH on December 01, 2017, 11:20:58 AM
Statistics show in HS football, the majority of fouls are called on the team on the other side of the field.
Interesting?  Can you share where, when and how you found these statistics?
I and many others would be interested in reviewing them.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: KWH on December 01, 2017, 11:22:48 AM
Still looking for a logical, practical or even rational reason for doing so.

Many of us are looking with you. Perhaps we need to Follow the Yellow Brick Road!
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Magician on December 01, 2017, 01:46:11 PM
Interesting?  Can you share where, when and how you found these statistics?
I and many others would be interested in reviewing them.
I know I've seen actual studies on this, but I don't remember where or when. It was just online speculation. There was a notable statistic that showed more fouls were called against the team on the opposite sideline by wing officials, but I don't remember that it was significant.

We've been doing it for 3 or 4 years in NCAA. It's not a bad thing and we've never minded it. I just don't see a huge need for it. The biggest issue is when reviewing video and identifying who would have had which key we have to know which half it was. Within the game itself it hasn't been an issue. Would I be heartbroken if we went back? No. Would I throw a fit if HS decided to do this? No.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: ElvisLives on December 01, 2017, 01:49:09 PM
Statistics show in HS football, the majority of fouls are called on the team on the other side of the field.

And here I thought Yoga Berra was dead and gone.  This is kinda like the card that says "See other side." on both sides.

Paraphrasing Yogi:
That restaurant is so crowded, nobody goes there any more.

It ain't over 'til its over.

Those are all I know...
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Rich on December 03, 2017, 02:49:34 PM
I consider my position on the Rules Committee as representing both my state and that of officials. If a proposed rule improves either the safety or fairness of the game, I support it knowing that it'll require new training and mechanics of officials.

IMHO, both flip-flopping wings and adding the 40 second play clock will add a lot of busy work for officials ,not to mention confusion and consistency ,with very little improvement to our game.

While I'll be an opponent to either, should they pass, I would support adding them to rule 1-7       (the "state's right rule).

 :sTiR:

How much weight do you give to the survey (which I've completed)?

My biggest problem with rules committees is that personal preference seems to rule how many people vote.....that and people sit on the committee way too long.

The 40 second clock may take some additional learning to administer, but in my experience as an assigner / observer and also as an R, it's amazing the inconsistency in pace of the R giving the RFP.  I'm quick....and no apologies from me for that.  Others I've watched are downright pokey.  Having a 40 second clock takes that away from the R....and would be a positive change to the game IMO.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: jason on December 04, 2017, 06:26:05 AM
I know I've seen actual studies on this, but I don't remember where or when. It was just online speculation. There was a notable statistic that showed more fouls were called against the team on the opposite sideline by wing officials, but I don't remember that it was significant.

We've been doing it for 3 or 4 years in NCAA. It's not a bad thing and we've never minded it. I just don't see a huge need for it. The biggest issue is when reviewing video and identifying who would have had which key we have to know which half it was. Within the game itself it hasn't been an issue. Would I be heartbroken if we went back? No. Would I throw a fit if HS decided to do this? No.

We tracked fouls with a sideline switch in my local association over the course of two years. Both years had a negligible difference in comparison to the previous two years' fouls. Having said that, some officials had anomalous results, which is not necessarily an indication of anything other than one team simply fouled more.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: jason on December 04, 2017, 06:27:35 AM
How much weight do you give to the survey (which I've completed)?

My biggest problem with rules committees is that personal preference seems to rule how many people vote.....that and people sit on the committee way too long.

The 40 second clock may take some additional learning to administer, but in my experience as an assigner / observer and also as an R, it's amazing the inconsistency in pace of the R giving the RFP.  I'm quick....and no apologies from me for that.  Others I've watched are downright pokey.  Having a 40 second clock takes that away from the R....and would be a positive change to the game IMO.

I understand your point, but new guys usually run the clock. And they screw up far more than they should. Having them try to figure out when it's 25 and when it's 40 would be a nightmare, IMO.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Magician on December 04, 2017, 10:17:50 AM
I understand your point, but new guys usually run the clock. And they screw up far more than they should. Having them try to figure out when it's 25 and when it's 40 would be a nightmare, IMO.
It's not hard at all. For the most part it is set to 40 and started at the end of a play. Unless there is some kind of administrative stoppage (i.e. score, penalty enforcement, change of possession, injury, time out). Then it's 25. We've been experimenting with it in Indiana for the past 2 years and have had almost zero issues. The most common issue we've had is since the R doesn't have to blow his whistle to start the game clock after a first down in bounds, the game clock operator misses it. That seems to be operator specific though because it either happens several times during a game or not at all. But the play clock has rarely been any more of an issue than when it's just 25. We do have visible play clocks in almost every stadium (I've never worked in one that didn't) which I know is not common.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: UTchad on December 06, 2017, 02:57:09 PM
In Utah they make the HL and LJ swap at halftime. Reasoning... coaches wanted to get a different referee on their sideline. My position is HL, so I do the first half as LJ and then second half as HL.  All the officials I know complain about it, but it is a requirement in Utah.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: yarnnelg on January 05, 2018, 10:31:42 PM
When we did this in Semi Pro, the Head Linesman took the chains with him. Our crew trashed the idea. I want one relationship with one Head Football Coach. It's not an open marriage.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: KWH on January 12, 2018, 12:46:58 PM
It's not hard at all. For the most part it is set to 40 and started at the end of a play. Unless there is some kind of administrative stoppage (i.e. score, penalty enforcement, change of possession, injury, time out). Then it's 25. We've been experimenting with it in Indiana for the past 2 years and have had almost zero issues. The most common issue we've had is since the R doesn't have to blow his whistle to start the game clock after a first down in bounds, the game clock operator misses it. That seems to be operator specific though because it either happens several times during a game or not at all. But the play clock has rarely been any more of an issue than when it's just 25. We do have visible play clocks in almost every stadium (I've never worked in one that didn't) which I know is not common.

So Brian -
There are many states that do not have visible play clocks. 
The idea of going to a 40/25 second "INVISIBLE" clock seems not only foolhardy, but a bit askew! 
As such, I would not support this change.
In fairness to you however I agree, with VISIBLE clocks, 40/25 is clearly the way to go.

Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Kalle on January 12, 2018, 01:17:10 PM
The idea of going to a 40/25 second "INVISIBLE" clock seems not only foolhardy, but a bit askew! 

I've had zero problems with running a 40/25 second clock on fields with no visible play clocks. I rarely have to give a 15-second warning, which I give if the offense is still in a huddle and not about to break it. I've absolutely loved it, even though I was against the change.
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: KWH on January 14, 2018, 06:26:12 PM
Still looking for a logical, practical or even rational reason for doing so.

Keep looking,I don't believe anyone can actually produce one!
Title: Re: Switching sidelines at halftime
Post by: Ralph Damren on January 15, 2018, 08:53:53 AM
Keep looking,I don't believe anyone can actually produce one!

"THE GRASS/FIELD TURF ALWAYS LOOKS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE/FIELD"

 tR:oLl :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: tR:oLl(5-MAN CREW)