RefStripes.com

Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bossman72 on December 05, 2017, 03:15:49 PM

Title: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bossman72 on December 05, 2017, 03:15:49 PM
http://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/nfhs-sport-questionnaires/

Let the discussions begin!
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 05, 2017, 04:00:54 PM
poll is down, whatever Surveymonkey 500 is, it's on a break, suggests trying again later.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: FLAHL on December 06, 2017, 09:04:25 AM
It's up and running now.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Rulesman on December 06, 2017, 09:30:20 AM
I am really disappointed in the format. Strictly yes or no answers. We’ve been asking for something free form to provide input. Obviously that is not important to the committee.  ???
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: theunofficialofficial on December 06, 2017, 01:27:58 PM
Starting a 40-second play count when the ball is ruled dead after a down.

Can we also get the clock to start when umpire places the ball after runner goes out of bounds?

I look forward to the results!
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: SouthGARef on December 06, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
I am really disappointed in the format. Strictly yes or no answers. We’ve been asking for something free form to provide input. Obviously that is not important to the committee.  ???

http://www.nfhs.org/RuleChangeProposal

I don't know if this is looked at or not, but it can't hurt.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: ncwingman on December 06, 2017, 09:01:42 PM
I am really disappointed in the format. Strictly yes or no answers. We’ve been asking for something free form to provide input. Obviously that is not important to the committee.  ???

Can we at least get three options?

a) Yes.
b) No.
c) Aww, h-e-double-hockey sticks naw!!
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on December 07, 2017, 07:58:04 AM
I am really disappointed in the format. Strictly yes or no answers. We’ve been asking for something free form to provide input. Obviously that is not important to the committee.  ???
The "free forum" is bending the ear of your state rep. If you find him unavailable / untouchable, you can bend my ear (eyes) and I'll listen (read).
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on December 07, 2017, 08:04:15 AM
Starting a 40-second play count when the ball is ruled dead after a down.

Can we also get the clock to start when umpire places the ball after runner goes out of bounds?

I look forward to the results!

40 second clock ,nah (opposite of ayuh).

RFP after OOB, while not on the questionnaire, may still be a proposed rule change. The hurdle in former years was reverting to old rule in last 2 mins. of half. I haven't heard of any problems with the change of timing in same timeframe from last year's change, which should add support.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on December 07, 2017, 08:12:00 AM
http://www.nfhs.org/RuleChangeProposal

I don't know if this is looked at or not, but it can't hurt.
These proposals must be received by NFHS by November 1st, BUT they must also be submitted through your state association. Developing a good relationship with your state's rules committee rep can be helpful in this procedure. Invite him to speak at one of your meetings.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on December 07, 2017, 08:57:29 AM
"HOW USEFUL IS THE QUESTIONNAIRE ?? "...You might ask. It used to be very valuable BUT limited.
Each state was assigned (somewhat like our Electorial College) a number of votes based on the number of schools playing football. Example : Maine had 3 coach, 5 official, and 1 state vote; any item receiving +50% would go automatically to the final regardless of how the sub-committee felt. This was changed several years ago (when the Curse of the Babe Ruth still haunted the Sox), to allow everyone to vote but no longer would those with +50% going directly to the final vote.

We are supplied with the final votes and the results are taken and discussed in our sub-committees.

YOUR VOTE COUNTS --STAND UP (LOG ON) AND BE COUNTED !!

 tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: tiphat: (34 = NUMBER NEEDED TO PASS A NEW RULE
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: KWH on December 17, 2017, 12:33:38 PM
I am really disappointed in the format. Strictly yes or no answers. We’ve been asking for something free form to provide input. Obviously that is not important to the committee.  ???

 ??? So... Please provide a little more info such as; Who is "We" and to whom did "We" ask?
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Magician on December 22, 2017, 01:30:17 AM
??? So... Please provide a little more info such as; Who is "We" and to whom did "We" ask?

I think the challenge with free form is you would potential have so many comments to read through it would take forever. You would need some sophisticated software to read the answers and try to group them or have someone manually do that for the committee. I have no idea how many responses you get, but I have to think there are at least 40-50k officials and at least that many coaches and administrators who were invited to complete the survey. If only 10% of that group did the survey and provided feedback that would be 8-10k comments for each question. Good luck with that!
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: LAZebra on December 31, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Starting a 40-second play count when the ball is ruled dead after a down.

Can we also get the clock to start when umpire places the ball after runner goes out of bounds?

I look forward to the results!

This is the only way I would be in favor of the 40 second play clock.  I do have a concern that we already have difficulty getting a quality job from play clock operators (who are usually officials in Alabama), adding the element of having to understand a clock that is sometimes 40 and sometimes 25 and sometimes starts on the dead ball and sometimes on the ready, is more than some would be able to comprehend.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: CalhounLJ on January 01, 2018, 01:39:54 PM
agree. I am in favor of starting the clock on RFP after OOB.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: JasonTX on January 01, 2018, 09:13:16 PM
This is the only way I would be in favor of the 40 second play clock.  I do have a concern that we already have difficulty getting a quality job from play clock operators (who are usually officials in Alabama), adding the element of having to understand a clock that is sometimes 40 and sometimes 25 and sometimes starts on the dead ball and sometimes on the ready, is more than some would be able to comprehend.

For what it's worth when Texas went to the 40 / 25 we didn't have any major issues.  Depending on where you are, the clock operators are usually just someone locally the school has been using for years.  Sure they aren't perfect but their mistakes have nothing to do with the 40 being new and usually it's just they are a second or two late on starting it.  Other locations the football officials chapter assigns members to operate the clock and I would expect them to be more sound in operating the clock as they have received better training.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Magician on January 02, 2018, 12:10:33 AM
For what it's worth when Texas went to the 40 / 25 we didn't have any major issues.  Depending on where you are, the clock operators are usually just someone locally the school has been using for years.  Sure they aren't perfect but their mistakes have nothing to do with the 40 being new and usually it's just they are a second or two late on starting it.  Other locations the football officials chapter assigns members to operate the clock and I would expect them to be more sound in operating the clock as they have received better training.
Not an issue in Indiana either the past 2 years. All our schools use some local person for game and play clocks. They are often volunteers or teachers. It's almost always 40 unless there is some kind of administrative stop (i.e. change of possession, time out, score, penalty enforcement). When it needs to be 25 the crew won't start anything until it's set to 25. The biggest issue has been game clock operators not starting the game clock on the wind after a first down because the R generally doesn't blow a whistle when that's done. It wasn't an issue in most games, but there were some clock operators who seemed to space it. The coaches and officials here love it because the pace is so much more consistent.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: ncwingman on January 02, 2018, 10:29:51 AM
The biggest issue has been game clock operators not starting the game clock on the wind after a first down because the R generally doesn't blow a whistle when that's done.

The R doesn't blow the whistle at the RFP after a first down? Wut?
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 02, 2018, 10:43:59 AM
while I support a 40/25 in theory...
It will increase DOG penalties, and since after a DOG the clock is on the snap, it will make 2.75-3hr HS games even longer.

Perhaps, bring in 40/25, but also start the clock on the ready for: OOB, COP. - heck I'll say after incomplete passes also (might as we ll ask santa for the moon and settle for what he gives me).


Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: prab on January 02, 2018, 11:24:56 AM
Question for those of you who are already using the 40/25 system.  Do all of your fields have play clocks that are visible to the QB?  Is the BJ still required to give a visible countdown of the last 5 seconds of the play clock?  Was cost of a major factor in your state's decision? 

Wisconsin has not yet discussed going to a 40/25 system.  However, a proposal to go to a 35 second shot clock for basketball was recently tabled, with cost being a major consideration.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Magician on January 02, 2018, 02:24:07 PM
The R doesn't blow the whistle at the RFP after a first down? Wut?
Not usually no. He's not blowing a ready for play. He's just restarting the game clock. The ball is ready for play when the U steps away from the ball. They are often very close together, but not necessarily the same time. There is nothing that says you can't blow the whistle, but it's not really needed for the players on the field or the coaches. The play clock has already started. If you watch college games, the R is usually winding the game clock before the ball is even down. I haven't seen that much urgency by HS Rs and I don't think it's necessary.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Magician on January 02, 2018, 02:33:43 PM
while I support a 40/25 in theory...
It will increase DOG penalties, and since after a DOG the clock is on the snap, it will make 2.75-3hr HS games even longer.

Perhaps, bring in 40/25, but also start the clock on the ready for: OOB, COP. - heck I'll say after incomplete passes also (might as we ll ask santa for the moon and settle for what he gives me).
We have seen no increase in DOG fouls. Why would you expect that? Our average game time the past 2 seasons was 2:20-2:25 and most were shorter than that. We had a couple longer ones (i.e. 2:45-2:50) that made the average higher. It's really easy for the teams to get into a cadence with the 40-second clock. It's the pace we were supposed to follow with the 25 second clock (12-15 seconds from dead to RFP plus a 25 second clock = 37-40 seconds dead to DOG). Do you have a lot of delays getting the ball rotated back to the middle? Do your R's let the QB go to the sideline to get the play and return to the huddle to call the play before starting the 25-second clock?

I don't feel the HS rules need to start the game clock on OOB and COP. Game time is not an issue in most games.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Magician on January 02, 2018, 02:46:42 PM
Question for those of you who are already using the 40/25 system.  Do all of your fields have play clocks that are visible to the QB?  Is the BJ still required to give a visible countdown of the last 5 seconds of the play clock?  Was cost of a major factor in your state's decision? 

Wisconsin has not yet discussed going to a 40/25 system.  However, a proposal to go to a 35 second shot clock for basketball was recently tabled, with cost being a major consideration.
Almost all HS varsity fields in Indiana have visible play clocks. In 17 seasons I've never worked a HS game at any level without a visible play clock. I'm told there are a couple fields that don't have them, but I'm not sure where they are. Some of the schools did have to pay for a system upgrade to allow the play clock to toggle between 40 and 25. I know some were due for hardware upgrades anyway so they were planned expenses. I didn't hear about too many complaints for costs. But the officials generally wouldn't hear about that anyway.

The BJ doesn't do anything with a visible play clock. From what I've heard though you don't need to have a visible play clock. I've heard those who have the BJ keep the 25-second play clock are fairly liberal with it anyway until the end of a half. I don't know why it would be any different here.

Our state rules rep is the one who drove the initial experiment. His reason for doing it was the incredibly inconsistent time between dead and ready within a game and especially game to game between different crews. There were times it was as quick as 5-6 seconds and other times it was 45-60 seconds. You can coach all you want but you can't monitor it or enforce it consistently with 150 games being played every Friday night. We don't have an exhaustive supervisor or assigner system. This was a great way to implement consistency and the coaches LOVE it! They sometimes travel to border states and have to go back to 25-second clocks and they hate it.

Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 02, 2018, 04:02:52 PM
We have seen no increase in DOG fouls. Why would you expect that? Our average game time the past 2 seasons was 2:20-2:25 and most were shorter than that. We had a couple longer ones (i.e. 2:45-2:50) that made the average higher. It's really easy for the teams to get into a cadence with the 40-second clock. It's the pace we were supposed to follow with the 25 second clock (12-15 seconds from dead to RFP plus a 25 second clock = 37-40 seconds dead to DOG). Do you have a lot of delays getting the ball rotated back to the middle? Do your R's let the QB go to the sideline to get the play and return to the huddle to call the play before starting the 25-second clock?

I don't feel the HS rules need to start the game clock on OOB and COP. Game time is not an issue in most games.
I'm sure every place is difference.
Long games are the norm round these parts.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bama_stripes on January 03, 2018, 05:39:18 AM
I don't feel the HS rules need to start the game clock on OOB and COP. Game time is not an issue in most games.

It is here.  After the 1996 changes, our Friday night start times had to be moved up 30 minutes & the TV highlight shows start 30 minutes later than before.  Most eateries close at 10:00 PM (and I live in a 100,000+ town), leaving only the McDs et al.

I'm not in favor of starting on COP, but starting on INCs and OOBs outside of the last 2 minutes would likely do the trick.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Rulesman on January 03, 2018, 07:57:14 AM
It is here.  After the 1996 changes, our Friday night start times had to be moved up 30 minutes & the TV highlight shows start 30 minutes later than before.  Most eateries close at 10:00 PM (and I live in a 100,000+ town), leaving only the McDs et al.

I'm not in favor of starting on COP, but starting on INCs and OOBs outside of the last 2 minutes would likely do the trick.
:thumbup :thumbup
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bossman72 on January 03, 2018, 08:16:21 AM
It is here.  After the 1996 changes, our Friday night start times had to be moved up 30 minutes & the TV highlight shows start 30 minutes later than before.  Most eateries close at 10:00 PM (and I live in a 100,000+ town), leaving only the McDs et al.

I'm not in favor of starting on COP, but starting on INCs and OOBs outside of the last 2 minutes would likely do the trick.

Just curious, what were the timing rules before 1996?
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: scrounge on January 03, 2018, 08:22:42 AM
Why not just eliminate stopping the clock after first down? With a 40 sec play clock, it seems redundant - and in the case of unusual chain delay, it can always be stopped on an exception basis and resetting to 25 sec. As chains get more experienced with the pace (at least in varsity!), I'd imagine/hope it wouldn't be much of an issue. If coaches insist, it could still be stopped in the last 2 min of each half. Frankly, I think NCAA should eliminate stopping the clock after 1st down in bounds as well - not just from a game length perspective but from a player safety one as well. Over the course of a 12-14 game season, that's a lot of snaps.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: FLAHL on January 03, 2018, 11:43:56 AM

I'm not in favor of starting on COP, but starting on INCs and OOBs outside of the last 2 minutes would likely do the trick.

+1 Bama

We still kick off at 7:30 and it's extremely rare to finish before 10.  Most of the time, we're headed to the dressing room around 10:15 or so.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Magician on January 03, 2018, 12:02:20 PM
+1 Bama

We still kick off at 7:30 and it's extremely rare to finish before 10.  Most of the time, we're headed to the dressing room around 10:15 or so.
Do you think it's because of a lot of scoring, a lot of incomplete passes, or a lot of penalty enforcement. The first two probably have the biggest impact to length of game. I don't think you'll see a huge difference either way in game length with the 40/25 clock. We didn't track that closely before and after, but we have been about the same game time anecdotally. We have tracked game time the last two seasons for  our crew and it was 2:20-2:25, and we had several games under 2:15. The other big time killer is getting out of time outs efficiently and change of possession/score. If you clock these you'll find many of them are 2-3 minutes. If you can consistently make those 1 minute you can cut at least 10-15 minutes in game time.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 03, 2018, 03:09:55 PM
Do you think it's because of a lot of scoring, a lot of incomplete passes, or a lot of penalty enforcement. The first two probably have the biggest impact to length of game. I don't think you'll see a huge difference either way in game length with the 40/25 clock. We didn't track that closely before and after, but we have been about the same game time anecdotally. We have tracked game time the last two seasons for  our crew and it was 2:20-2:25, and we had several games under 2:15. The other big time killer is getting out of time outs efficiently and change of possession/score. If you clock these you'll find many of them are 2-3 minutes. If you can consistently make those 1 minute you can cut at least 10-15 minutes in game time.
In my opinion...here is the evolution of long games since on or about 2002:
1 - Scoring has increased: frequently, there's either blowout games (that do not meet the criteria for a running clock), or games in excess of 60+ points scored between the two teams.
2 - Incomplete passes have increased: I just looked up stats for a state finals game.  Combined the passing was 27/53..or 26 incomplete passes..or time standing still for these plays until the next snap.
2A - Turnovers have increased: a byproduct of more passing.  Or time standing still for COP.
3 - Increased OOB. "back in my day" I never saw Walter Paytin, Barry Sanders, Lynn Swann, etc. dash for the sidelines v getting an extra yard.  Nowadays, a player (emulating NFL/NCAA) sees a sideline they're running for it.  More time standing still.

Not so long ago, when black pants replaced knickers and folks were communnicating their displeasure...but eventually liked the idea of the black pants, it seems the game' rules regarding timing can also evolve to consider the time involved for these contests (at a HS level no-less).

For several reasons, the NFL, and FB overall, has lower viewership.  It seems somewhere on this list of reasons is that folks do not want to sit through a 2.75-hour HS game or a 3.5-hour ncaa/nfl game.

While i'm no fan, for the most popular sport in the world, soccer, games are 2-hours long--even including stoppage time.
A few weeks ago, Manchester United played Manchester City in a regular season contest with nothing "on the line", yet 600 million world-wide was watching. or about 500% more than sees the 4-hour long super bowl world-wide.

The most popular form of racing, F1, has races that are never longer than 2.5-hours...and nascar wonders why viewership is down. Each week, F1 has more viewers world-wide than the "super bowl of nascar"--the Daytona 500.

It would seem reasonable for the football powers that be to look at the big picture and review items 1-3 listed above and do something to get these games moving.

Goodness, I would favor (NFL/NCAA) 25-min running clock quarters (100min) with 'normal' timing the last 2 min of each half. Toss in the normal 20-min halftime.  Rarely would we see a game in excess of 2.5hr.

HS would be 20-min running clock quarters and games would be about 2 hours.

Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: AlUpstateNY on January 03, 2018, 04:34:12 PM
In my opinion...here is the evolution of long games since on or about 2002:

It would seem reasonable for the football powers that be to look at the big picture and review items 1-3 listed above and do something to get these games moving.

Wouldn't argue or dispute your conclusions and observations, but I would place "wasted time after scores" at the top of the list, with the intermission between periods a close second.  NF 3-7-l establishes the intermission between periods and after scores at 1 minute.  Of course it all depends on where the game is being played, but I'd wager the actual interval is closer to 3 minutes, and may exceed to as much as 5 minutes. if what seems to have evolved as the mandatory "coaching clinic/pep talk" is allowed to extend that far.

Following those situations would be the incomplete pass, and the interval between the pass ending and the offense being ready to call the next play.  The 40 second clock has reduced that interval to a consistent 15 seconds, to do whatever you need to do, before the 25 second RFP, which helps. 

A harsh reality is that both of these situations although controllable by the Referee, and the consistency of enforcement of the stated intervals, however, may simply not be as realistically attainable, on as consistent a basis, when dealing with teenagers and less experienced coaches and coaching staffs as they are with well funded Colleges and/or highly skilled and well paid professional athletes and coaching staffs with unlimited resources and greater experience.
 
Sometimes what may work perfectly well at one level, simply does not translate, exactly as intended, to lower levels (for very practical reasons).

Another major time factor is the difference in handling (on-field, interrupting play)potential player injuries, between levels of play.  Available resources, again on a consistent basis, and the general physical condition of players are practical differences as to how issues and concerns are handled.

I'm not sure who determined 2 hours is the ultimately perfect duration of a football game, at any level, but presuming 3 hours would be considered overly lengthy, leaves a lot of room for acceptable adjustment.    It may well be worthwhile seriously considering possibly adjusting timing interruptions and fluidity of play, and practices at other levels may well be instructional and helpful, but may not be automatically convertible at the exact levels applied at higher levels.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bama_stripes on January 03, 2018, 06:20:13 PM
Just curious, what were the timing rules before 1996?

Start on RFP after COP if no other reason to stop. (OOB or Fair Catch)

That, combined with more passing (and particularly more incomplete passes) and moving to 20-minute halftime (plus the 3-minute warmup) are the main culprits in our area.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: ElvisLives on January 03, 2018, 07:09:09 PM
Regardless of the governing code for high schools, the single most significant change in the game in the past 30 years that extends the length of games is the dramatically increased passing game.
As proof of that, we had a couple of games this year in which there only a handful of passes thrown, total, and we knocked those out in under two hours, each, even with 24 minute halftimes.  Nothing else different - still had teams scoring over 40 combined points, etc.
But, when we ran into games with two high passing teams, those games always easily exceeded 2 1/2 hours.
Regarding NCAA, it ain’t anything about the play of the game that is causing games to exceed 3 hours.  The reason is TV.  TV breaks add from 24 to 40 minutes to every televised NCAA game.  Subtract that from even a 3 1/2 hour game, and you get a very reasonable 2:30 to 2:50 game.
The most annoying thing is that it is TV that is pushing the drive to get games (NFL and NCAA) to fit in three hour windows.  They whine about games taking so long, but it is their field producers that squeeze the extra 10-30 seconds out of each media break.  That adds up.
Sadly, only the NFL has the clout the get TV to reduce the amount of commercial break, if they had the will to do so.
So, the game has to suffer to feed TVs insatiable appetite.
Robert
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bossman72 on January 03, 2018, 08:51:18 PM
+1 Bama

We still kick off at 7:30 and it's extremely rare to finish before 10.  Most of the time, we're headed to the dressing room around 10:15 or so.

We kept a foul report when I was the R on a HS crew for 2 years.  Some reports had game time on them, some didn't.  Below are game times and score of the game for the ones that had times on them.  Things to note that affect game time:  we have a 35 point mercy rule.  Once you hit 35, the mercy rule stays in effect the whole game.  We have consistent 20 min halftimes plus 3 min warm up period.  Our crew was very very efficient in penalty enforcement, ball rotation, and managing other down time.  My RFP pace was slightly on the quicker side.  Crew of 6 that works together every week.

Time (Score)
2:08 (47-12)
2:20 (35-20)
2:10 (49-7)
2:17 (35-14)
2:31 (23-21)
1:55 (35-0)
2:40 (38-22)
2:20 (42-7)
2:35 (54-7)
2:13 (10-7)
2:12 (56-0)
2:33 (35-24)
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: NoVaBJ on January 04, 2018, 09:07:58 AM
Just curious, what were the timing rules before 1996?

COP started on the ready unless OOB after COP.

Correction: What Bama Stripes said above.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 04, 2018, 09:32:07 AM
Wouldn't argue or dispute your conclusions and observations, but I would place "wasted time after scores" at the top of the list, with the intermission between periods a close second.  NF 3-7-l establishes the intermission between periods and after scores at 1 minute.  Of course it all depends on where the game is being played, but I'd wager the actual interval is closer to 3 minutes, and may exceed to as much as 5 minutes. if what seems to have evolved as the mandatory "coaching clinic/pep talk" is allowed to extend that far.

Following those situations would be the incomplete pass, and the interval between the pass ending and the offense being ready to call the next play.  The 40 second clock has reduced that interval to a consistent 15 seconds, to do whatever you need to do, before the 25 second RFP, which helps. 

Wasted time after scores is not an issue round these parts and consistent RFP is not either.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 04, 2018, 09:46:17 AM
We kept a foul report when I was the R on a HS crew for 2 years.  Some reports had game time on them, some didn't.  Below are game times and score of the game for the ones that had times on them.  Things to note that affect game time:  we have a 35 point mercy rule.  Once you hit 35, the mercy rule stays in effect the whole game.  We have consistent 20 min halftimes plus 3 min warm up period.  Our crew was very very efficient in penalty enforcement, ball rotation, and managing other down time.  My RFP pace was slightly on the quicker side.  Crew of 6 that works together every week.

Time (Score)
2:08 (47-12)
2:20 (35-20)
2:10 (49-7)
2:17 (35-14)
2:31 (23-21)
1:55 (35-0)
2:40 (38-22)
2:20 (42-7)
2:35 (54-7)
2:13 (10-7)
2:12 (56-0)
2:33 (35-24)

If I read accurately...which could be questionnable..
12 games
6 were 35 point differential
6 were standard-length games.
...of those 6, avg time was 2:24
Curious what these numbers would have looked like in year 2002 or so....of course in 2002 I dont think they invented the mercy rule yet also...
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: yarnnelg on January 05, 2018, 10:38:16 PM
I agree Tampa. In St Pete, we hustled to cut down scoring delays and had the ball boys always at the ready. Besides ... Hooter's, Winghouse and Nickle City were always open late. SFOA
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on January 08, 2018, 01:06:42 PM
In 1996 we passed the rule that started the clock on the snap following COP plays.

In 1997 there was a national squabble over the additional length of games this caused.

In 1998 I attended a game with note pad, stop watch, and a thermos of hot coco. As I recall, my results were approx. :

(1) 4 minutes + from TD > KO;
(2) 35-30 game =9 TDs = 36+ minutes
    (a) player scores TD =  pHiNzuP  pHiNzuP ;
    (b) band plays , cheerleaders prance  tR:oLl tR:oLl ;
    (c) PAT team shows up;
    (d) ball kicked into pucker brush;
    (e) band plays again, cheerleaders do push-ups  tR:oLl pHiNzuP tR:oLl;
    (f) teams huddle on sidelines  while z^ dig out ball;
    (g) kickoff teams show up.

(3) COP rule change had added a little over 10 minutes to the game - remember, incomplete passes and OOB on 4th down would have started on snap anyway and often A didn't use full 25 seconds after RFP.

IMHO,
Wide open offenses have increased scoring which have increased dead-time after scores.

Much more passing then yesteryear = many more incomplete passes then yesteryear.

WTD (what to do)?
Start on RFP if run ends OOB ++++ tiphat:

WELCOME SUGGESTIONS....
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bossman72 on January 08, 2018, 01:51:00 PM
One advantage of the 40/25 is that on first downs gained in bounds, the R can basically wind the clock immediately if he wants to, since it doesn't affect the play clock.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: FLAHL on January 08, 2018, 02:08:36 PM
Our association has 20+ schools under contract.  Exactly 1 has a visible 25 second clock, so I don't see us going to 40/25 any time soon.  The #1 contributor to longer games around here is spread offenses with more passes and more incomplete passes.  Because these teams run the spread, they can't (or won't) move to a running game when they're ahead by 3 or 4 touchdowns either.  Several others have already identified the major things that would help us - start the clock on the ready after OOB and INC until the last 2 minutes of each half.  I bet that would cut 20 minutes from our game times.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 08, 2018, 03:04:02 PM
Our association has 20+ schools under contract.  Exactly 1 has a visible 25 second clock, so I don't see us going to 40/25 any time soon.  The #1 contributor to longer games around here is spread offenses with more passes and more incomplete passes.  Because these teams run the spread, they can't (or won't) move to a running game when they're ahead by 3 or 4 touchdowns either.  Several others have already identified the major things that would help us - start the clock on the ready after OOB and INC until the last 2 minutes of each half.  I bet that would cut 20 minutes from our game times.
Knowing where FLAHL is, I'm betting the one school is a private school.
...and to my knowledge, that other county next to yours has zero playclocks.
I know for a fact 0 schools have a playclock to the North of where FLAHL is..
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 08, 2018, 03:11:48 PM
In 1996 we passed the rule that started the clock on the snap following COP plays.

In 1997 there was a national squabble over the additional length of games this caused.

In 1998 I attended a game with note pad, stop watch, and a thermos of hot coco. As I recall, my results were approx. :

(1) 4 minutes + from TD > KO;
(2) 35-30 game =9 TDs = 36+ minutes
    (a) player scores TD =  pHiNzuP  pHiNzuP ;
    (b) band plays , cheerleaders prance  tR:oLl tR:oLl ;
    (c) PAT team shows up;
    (d) ball kicked into pucker brush;
    (e) band plays again, cheerleaders do push-ups  tR:oLl pHiNzuP tR:oLl;
    (f) teams huddle on sidelines  while z^ dig out ball;
    (g) kickoff teams show up.

(3) COP rule change had added a little over 10 minutes to the game - remember, incomplete passes and OOB on 4th down would have started on snap anyway and often A didn't use full 25 seconds after RFP.

IMHO,
Wide open offenses have increased scoring which have increased dead-time after scores.

Much more passing then yesteryear = many more incomplete passes then yesteryear.

WTD (what to do)?
Start on RFP if run ends OOB ++++ tiphat:

WELCOME SUGGESTIONS....

At a bare minimum, WTD: start on RFP on OOB.
...but as you said, more passing = more incomplete = more time standing still.  also start on RFP after INC.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bossman72 on January 08, 2018, 03:19:41 PM
Exactly 1 has a visible 25 second clock, so I don't see us going to 40/25 any time soon.

As stated many times on this site, that's not a necessity of the 40/25.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 08, 2018, 03:24:18 PM
As stated many times on this site, that's not a necessity of the 40/25.
Agreed, but a big change for BJ....some of which cant get the 25 sec correct now...
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: AlUpstateNY on January 08, 2018, 04:01:53 PM

WELCOME SUGGESTIONS....

After Scores:  Either STRICTLY enforce 1 minute Intermission, or if necessary extend it to a STRICTLY enforced 11/2 minute Intermission (from the completed Try, if after a TD.

Incomplete Pass:  Start the game clock on the Referee's RFP signal (allow for Offensive receivers to return to their side of the LOS before declaring RFP)

COP:  Start game clock on RFP signal (Referees to allow both teams opportunity to replace players)
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bama_stripes on January 08, 2018, 06:14:09 PM
Many of us are fond of saying "Hey, the coaches make the rules -- we just enforce 'em."  But we tend to forget:  Most coaches don't give a dadgum whether the games last 1 1/2 hours or 3 1/2 hours.  It's just not important to them.

In fact, most coaches want to run as many plays as possible.  They get more players in the game, which cuts down on complaints from parents.
Title: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: CalhounLJ on January 08, 2018, 08:06:29 PM
I was just about to ask what’s wrong with a 3 hour football game? We get paid 100 bucks for one down here and that’s still 30 bucks an hour.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: ncwingman on January 08, 2018, 10:44:48 PM
Except that even if the game is 3 hours, you've been working for a lot longer. How long before the game did you arrive at the field? How long before that did you leave home? How long will it be after the game before you get home? You're probably going to add 2 to 3 hours on top of game time before all is said and done.

That being said, I'm not complaining about "long" games either. It's not like there's somewhere else I need to be at 10pm on a Friday and these games are keeping me from it.

Also, the coaches night is a lot longer than ours.
Title: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: CalhounLJ on January 09, 2018, 06:35:11 AM
I typically drive 2 hours to and 2 hours back. Moved out of my district several years ago and couldn’t bear to start over with a different crew. I’m blessed to have Friday’s off, so it’s not a problem. I say that to say this: travel time and total time shouldn’t factor into the equation. We all accept those things when we sign up.  I completely agree with the bottom half of your post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bama_stripes on January 09, 2018, 07:18:35 AM
That being said, I'm not complaining about "long" games either. It's not like there's somewhere else I need to be at 10pm on a Friday and these games are keeping me from it.

That's fine on a Friday night.  But remember -- the same rules apply on Monday, Tuesday & Thursday nights for subvarsity games.  Yes, the clock time is typically reduced in these games to 8 or 10 minute quarters, but that still results in 2 hour games.  And that's on a school night.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: ncwingman on January 09, 2018, 07:47:29 AM
I typically drive 2 hours to and 2 hours back. Moved out of my district several years ago and couldn’t bear to start over with a different crew. I’m blessed to have Friday’s off, so it’s not a problem. I say that to say this: travel time and total time shouldn’t factor into the equation. We all accept those things when we sign up.  I completely agree with the bottom half of your post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm mostly just saying that if you're going to stick a number in there and do math to get to $30/hr, it should be an honest number. Also, $100 game? Lucky.... but yeah, if it wasn't worth my time, as many hours as it is, I wouldn't be doing it.

That's fine on a Friday night.  But remember -- the same rules apply on Monday, Tuesday & Thursday nights for subvarsity games.  Yes, the clock time is typically reduced in these games to 8 or 10 minute quarters, but that still results in 2 hour games.  And that's on a school night.

At least around my area, most coaches also understand that too and encourage a faster game on Thursday than they do on Friday. When talking to coaches pregame, about 75% of the time when asked about timing -- "Conference rules state we have to play 12 minute quarters, but I don't care, we're playing 10". The other 25% of the time, they don't mention the conference rules and just say 10 minute quarters. A couple times a year, a coach asks halfheartedly if halftime can by <10 minutes too.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: FLAHL on January 09, 2018, 09:10:20 AM

WELCOME SUGGESTIONS....

I know this is state-by-state, but how about a mercy rule of 24 points (3 TDs and 3 2-pt conversions)?  In FL, it's currently 35, and when one team gets that far ahead we're doing two things - enforcing safety-related fouls only (especially against the team that is behind) and trying to prevent fights from breaking out.  I can't remember the biggest point differential that I've seen overcome, but I suspect it's not more than 3 TDs.  Some of our schools are simply much better than others so blowouts are going to happen.  Even when schools are more evenly matched, teenagers react differently to being down by 21 than pros.  You can often tell by body language that a team has given up when they're down more than 2 scores.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 09, 2018, 11:49:12 AM
on the topic of mercy rule, for what it's worth in wrestling if you reach 15 point differential the match is terminated.  Baseball games are terminated too.
certainly apples & oranges but both are not state rules but national rules and perhaps a national mercy rule for football..
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: CalhounLJ on January 09, 2018, 03:37:50 PM
on the topic of mercy rule, for what it's worth in wrestling if you reach 15 point differential the match is terminated.  Baseball games are terminated too.
certainly apples & oranges but both are not state rules but national rules and perhaps a national mercy rule for football..

I know absolutely nothing about wrestling, but the run rule in baseball is subject to state association adoption: By state association adoption, the game shall end when the visiting team is behind 10 or more runs after 4˝ innings, or after the fifth inning, if either team is 10 runs behind and both teams have had an equal number of times at bat.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: CalhounLJ on January 09, 2018, 03:39:18 PM
I know absolutely nothing about wrestling, but the run rule in baseball is subject to state association adoption: By state association adoption, the game shall end when the visiting team is behind 10 or more runs after 4˝ innings, or after the fifth inning, if either team is 10 runs behind and both teams have had an equal number of times at bat.
Not that it matters that much. I wish our state would adopt a points differential running clock procedure.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: TampaSteve on January 10, 2018, 08:39:07 AM
I know absolutely nothing about wrestling, but the run rule in baseball is subject to state association adoption: By state association adoption, the game shall end when the visiting team is behind 10 or more runs after 4˝ innings, or after the fifth inning, if either team is 10 runs behind and both teams have had an equal number of times at bat.
really? i swear it was NFHS for mery rule baseball.
I stand corrected and redact that.....drat, sorry fellas.
heck, i dont know of a state that doesnt have a mery rule for baseball.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on January 11, 2018, 08:37:36 AM
I know absolutely nothing about wrestling, but the run rule in baseball is subject to state association adoption: By state association adoption, the game shall end when the visiting team is behind 10 or more runs after 4˝ innings, or after the fifth inning, if either team is 10 runs behind and both teams have had an equal number of times at bat.
The "mercy rule" in baseball (4-2-2) differs slightly than ours in football as the 10 runs is fixed if a state chooses to use it. If football, a state can decide how many points would determine mercy.

PS : I like Connecticut's ,where the coach of the winning team is suspended for one game if his victory exceeds 50 points !!

   aWaRd P_S pi1eOn P_S :thumbup
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: FLAHL on January 11, 2018, 09:25:07 AM

PS : I like Connecticut's ,where the coach of the winning team is suspended for one game if his victory exceeds 50 points !!


I like that too!
I worked a lopsided JV game years ago with one team ahead by a lot and pitching a shutout, but no running clock, in the 2nd half.  The winning team had their 2nd team defense in, and the other team was driving.  One of the coaches on the sideline was yelling "Starting D, get ready" and the head coach said "We will NOT put the starters back in."  Best example of sportsmanship I've seen in a while.
Sadly I have many candidates for worst example, including a game this year with one team ahead 35-0 coming out and starting the 2nd half with an onside kick.  What are these guys thinking?
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: AlUpstateNY on January 11, 2018, 10:05:52 AM
A year after a College team embarrassingly drubbed a Conference opponent, the teams met again and the previously losing HC was asked if he held and ill feelings about the winning HC.  He responded, "Not at all, during the warm up he gave me the "Peace" sign from the opposite sideline, and I promptly gave him, "half of it back".

Sooner or later, what goes around eventually comes around.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on January 11, 2018, 10:21:55 AM
We need to be careful of what we wish for when considering modifications of Rule 3.

Before Maine installed a mercy rule a few years ago, we would use our version of a running clock with the agreement of the coaches. We would start the clock on ALL RFPs if it had stopped for any reason. This would often complete the 2nd half in 30-35 minutes ,if initiated at halftime. I think we can all agree that a game lasting 80-90 minutes is a tad too short.

I am, and will continue to be, a strong proponent of these changes :

3-4-3a ..start on RFP if ball or player with ball goes OOB - NCAA rule for several years without any known problems. Revert to current practice in last  2 minutes in each half. This year's new rule should prove that it can be managed.

3-4-3i..start on RFP after DOG -opponents can request snap under 3-4-7 and many DOGs occur during situations where the team is just tardy and not trying to consume time.

3-4-3j..this was put in when the return kick was eliminated back in 1965, so a free kick after a fair catch wouldn't start the clock until legally touched. 1996 COP rule change corrected that and no longer needed.

Note : I was a NCAA game clock operator when they experimented with starting on RFP on ALL COPs- even 4th down incomplete passes - that experiment didn't last long. IMHO, the OOB>RFP would help considerably.
 
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: prab on January 11, 2018, 12:49:39 PM
Is there any hint yet at what (if any) possible rule changes for 2018 are likely to make it at least to the discussion phase?
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: ncwingman on January 11, 2018, 09:17:51 PM
3-4-3a ..start on RFP if ball or player with ball goes OOB - NCAA rule for several years without any known problems. Revert to current practice in last  2 minutes in each half. This year's new rule should prove that it can be managed.

I have to say that I think the new timing rule after accepted penalties came up once for me -- and in a JV game at that. I'm unconvinced that paying attention to the clock to change rules under 2 minutes has really been tested heavily.

Quote
Note : I was a NCAA game clock operator when they experimented with starting on RFP on ALL COPs- even 4th down incomplete passes - that experiment didn't last long. IMHO, the OOB>RFP would help considerably.

My "favorite" exploit of that rule was Wisconsin being deliberately offsides on kickoffs and running out 24 seconds by having kick off three times since the clock started on the kick, not when it was legally touched. Of course, don't they also have a tack-on option for penalty administration for that now?
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: bama_stripes on January 12, 2018, 06:47:39 AM
 sNiCkErS
3-4-3a ..start on RFP if ball or player with ball goes OOB - NCAA rule for several years without any known problems. Revert to current practice in last  2 minutes in each half. This year's new rule should prove that it can be managed.

 : :thumbup

Since that proposal expands the 2-minute window, lets go ahead and include incomplete passes in that window as well.
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on January 12, 2018, 10:19:13 AM
Is there any hint yet at what (if any) possible rule changes for 2018 are likely to make it at least to the discussion phase?

All questions on the questionnaire are also rule proposals....
  All those proposals are considered hot topics.....
    All those hot topics will be discussed.....
      They are also others ;)...
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: Ralph Damren on January 12, 2018, 10:23:27 AM
I know this is state-by-state, but how about a mercy rule of 24 points (3 TDs and 3 2-pt conversions)?  In FL, it's currently 35, and when one team gets that far ahead we're doing two things - enforcing safety-related fouls only (especially against the team that is behind) and trying to prevent fights from breaking out.  I can't remember the biggest point differential that I've seen overcome, but I suspect it's not more than 3 TDs.  Some of our schools are simply much better than others so blowouts are going to happen.  Even when schools are more evenly matched, teenagers react differently to being down by 21 than pros.  You can often tell by body language that a team has given up when they're down more than 2 scores.

I once watched a Super Bowl where a team was down 25 points and came back to win

 nAnA aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd nAnA       :)

Time for some lobster chowder  eAt& tiphat:
Title: Re: NFHS Questionnaire
Post by: FLAHL on January 12, 2018, 12:03:44 PM
I once watched a Super Bowl where a team was down 25 points and came back to win


Me, right after finishing my lunch.

 :puke: