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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Ralph Damren on February 08, 2019, 11:35:29 AM

Title: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 08, 2019, 11:35:29 AM
NOT HERE YET .....

SORRY GUYS, I COULDN'T RESIST  :puke:. Have a good weekend, as we enter that void between the NFL and the NFHS press release.  tR:oLl
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 08, 2019, 11:48:24 AM
I'm the biggest sucker in the world... I'm thinking all the time, "They are not here yet.." while at the same time, irresistibly moving my mouse pointer closer and closer to the click.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: stevegarbs on February 08, 2019, 12:34:16 PM
 :'(
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: SCline on February 08, 2019, 01:14:34 PM
Good news is the AAF kicks off (not literally though because there are no kickoffs in the league) this weekend
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 09, 2019, 10:49:08 AM
Good news is the AAF kicks off (not literally though because there are no kickoffs in the league) this weekend
While "kickoff" may not be PC, it is probably better than some alternatives : "snap off", "hike off" and certainly "playoff"'

Per chance we should consider other sports that have lived beyond terms that are not literally true ....

Basketball : "top of the key" - the foul lane once resembled a keyhole;
                  " cager" - early BB was often played on a stage with a cage as a safety net to prevent players from falling off.

Baseball : "bullpen" - Bull Durham Cigars used to provide an add behind where pitchers warmed up;
               "on deck & in the hold" - a nautical term first used in Belfast, MAINE.

Football : "gridiron".......well, I'm sure you guys can think of a few more  tiphat:

I don't believe the AAF adopted the 4-point field goal via drop kick, so my TV will be turned to Law And Order reruns.... tR:oLl tR:oLl
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: the clown on February 09, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
Pebble beach is all I have till pitchers and catchers report.  I have one more Hoop game tonight before playoffs.  I did 15 weeks of football and 12 weeks and counting of basketball.  The golf course is calling and I'm seriously thinking of turning down playoff assignments.... Not quite the right attitude for success when your more interested in then the clock then the game. 
Basketball: "Court"  I told a player the other night that its called a "Court" because there are three judges, two Lawyers, ten defendants and no jury.  If he's found guilty 5 times he's going away...
Golf: Links, club.. Take a club and go on a wild goose chase to earn a cold beer at the end.
Football: Cow pasture.. Andy Griffith said it best in "What it was was football"  I still tell the players during the coin toss that we are going to "Commence an odd man"
Baseball:  PARK.  by far the best name.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 11, 2019, 07:53:16 AM
               "on deck & in the hold" - a nautical term first used in Belfast, MAINE.

I always heard/saw it as "in the hole" instead of "hold". The person next on the ladder to reach the deck, would be sitting in a hole... somebody in the "hold" sounds like he's locked up in the brig.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Regno71 on February 11, 2019, 10:50:15 AM
http://nfhs.org/articles/40-second-play-clock-postseason-instant-replay-among-football-changes/
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 11, 2019, 11:05:46 AM
Thanks, Regno, for beating me to the post on this  :).  Well, here you have it guys. Some changes you will like and some you will not BUT they are our changes and we need to try to treat them positively. That being said, let the ranting >:( :( :o 8] ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( :puke: begin.......

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (5-man crew)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: JasonTX on February 11, 2019, 11:06:31 AM
I think all those changes align with NCAA rules.  You guys will soon be using an NCAA book if you keep changing rules. ;D
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2019, 11:12:03 AM
I quickly scanned through the rules changes and one  really stood out for me and that was a tackle by grabbing the jersey by the name plate is now a personal foul.  I saw tackles like this several times last year and they were often very bad looking with the player being dragged back ackwardly and in  one instance a ball carrier was injured . I couldn’t throw a flag because it wasn’t a true horse collar.  I think this will make the game safer as tacklers learn to avoid this.   ^good
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 11, 2019, 11:23:16 AM
I think all those changes align with NCAA rules.  You guys will soon be using an NCAA book if you keep changing rules. ;D
Don't say that, Jason :(, then I won't have any meeting to go to in January  :) !
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 11, 2019, 11:44:15 AM
I quickly scanned through the rules changes and one  really stood out for me and that was a tackle by grabbing the jersey by the name plate is now a personal foul.  I saw tackles like this several times last year and they were often very bad looking with the player being dragged back ackwardly and in  one instance a ball carrier was injured . I couldnít throw a flag because it wasnít a true horse collar.  I think this will make the game safer as tacklers learn to avoid this.   ^good
This, plus adding a foul for tripping the runner were our two safety rule changes. Several "bandage" approaches were proposed regarding kickoffs but not passed. An interesting study was provided by the Ivy League that moved up K's free kick line and increased touchbacks from 20% to +50%. This allowed for an onside kick attempt along with providing the kickoff basics. The "states rights" on replays allows a state to allow replay at any level/period of the season without asking to do an experiment. We should like flagging 5 backs and not 6 linemen, as many have pushed for that for several years. IK & IB are reduced to 10 with the feeling that they were not safety issues. OUR new 40" clock will be a learning curve for many, but I believe we can handle it. 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: VALJ on February 11, 2019, 11:58:58 AM
I think after an adjustment period, we'll be fine with the 40-second clock.  Will just take some getting used to,

I LOVE that we're going to more than 5 in the backfield, rather than less than 7 on the line.  Even though I've been working downfield for years, I've hated seeing the offense have a big Bubba forget to go out, snap with 10, and get flagged for it.  Playing with 10 is its own penalty.

Another year, another jersey issue.  Is what it is.  Not much we can do on the field to enforce the number size anyway; that's a state issue.

I'm neutral on the tripping the runner, though I guess it's consistent for every player now. Don't think I've ever seen a tackle by the nameplate, so that is what it is.

Ralph, has there been discussion of changing DPI to 15 yards or the spot of the foul, whichever is less?  That's the one biggie for me - I hate penalizing a team 15 yards when the pass only goes 5 yards.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2019, 12:15:37 PM
what will the mechanics look like for linesman on this rule change of 5 on the line of scrimmage.  Who will be responsible for counting?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 11, 2019, 12:32:06 PM
what will the mechanics look like for linesman on this rule change of 5 on the line of scrimmage.  Who will be responsible for counting?

Both LOS officials should always be aware of the number of backs.

This will eliminate most "3rd base coach" signals for unbalanced line, etc.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 11, 2019, 12:38:16 PM
Good changes.  I like all of them as long as NFHS didn't do anything quirky with their wording just to be different than NCAA.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2019, 12:46:12 PM
Both LOS officials should always be aware of the number of backs.

This will eliminate most "3rd base coach" signals for unbalanced line, etc.

so as linesmen we will still need to cross signal,  glance at the backfield and quickly add.  If there are more than 6 then it is an illegal formation penalty at the snap because the offense always has the opportunity to correct the formation. 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 11, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
I think after an adjustment period, we'll be fine with the 40-second clock.  Will just take some getting used to,

I LOVE that we're going to more than 5 in the backfield, rather than less than 7 on the line.  Even though I've been working downfield for years, I've hated seeing the offense have a big Bubba forget to go out, snap with 10, and get flagged for it.  Playing with 10 is its own penalty.

Another year, another jersey issue.  Is what it is.  Not much we can do on the field to enforce the number size anyway; that's a state issue.

I'm neutral on the tripping the runner, though I guess it's consistent for every player now. Don't think I've ever seen a tackle by the nameplate, so that is what it is.

Ralph, has there been discussion of changing DPI to 15 yards or the spot of the foul, whichever is less?  That's the one biggie for me - I hate penalizing a team 15 yards when the pass only goes 5 yards.

I don't believe, VALJ, that making DPI a spot foul if less than 15 has ever been on the final docket. It has been discussed informally before with the following majority opinion :

(1) If a change was made, a spot foul should include fouls beyond 15 also.
(2) Not all catchable passes are caught in high school, with or without DPI.
(3) This would be an exception.
(4) Exceptions aren't popular.

I would like to see an awarded first down reinserted back in the code for intentional DPI. A though could be to add AFD to the intentional (and never called) DPI. That could put the damper on the intentional act when the foul itself would NOT create a new series (goal-to-go situations) . Anyone for that ???
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: riffraft on February 11, 2019, 01:35:51 PM
so as linesmen we will still need to cross signal,  glance at the backfield and quickly add.  If there are more than 6 then it is an illegal formation penalty at the snap because the offense always has the opportunity to correct the formation.

If there more than 4 in the backfield
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 11, 2019, 01:37:12 PM
so as linesmen we will still need to cross signal,  glance at the backfield and quickly add.  If there are more than 6 then it is an illegal formation penalty at the snap because the offense always has the opportunity to correct the formation.
The way the rule change is worded it is still a foul for more than 4 in the backfield.

From the NFHS post link above:  "A change in the definition of a legal scrimmage formation was approved. A legal scrimmage formation now requires at least five offensive players on their line of scrimmage (instead of seven) with no more than four backs. The committee noted that this change will make it easier to identify legal and illegal offensive formations."
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2019, 02:04:29 PM
thank you Riffraft and NVFOA_UMP.   This is a stupid question but  I glanced through our rules book and I could not find the definition of backfield.  What is 'backfield'?  Is it anybody behind the quarterback no matter where they are on the field?  Because I have seen some receivers line up pretty far from the LOS and would they be considered 'in the backfield'? 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 11, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
Derek, you might take a look at NFHS 2-32-3.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Regno71 on February 11, 2019, 02:58:12 PM
They've released the rules update, in addition to the article linked above.

http://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/football-rules-changes-2019/

Includes 2019 Points of Emphasis:

1 - Proper Procedures for Weather Delays
2 - Expanded Neutral Zone as it Applies to Run or Pass Options
3 - Free-Blocking Zone and Legal Blocking
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2019, 03:01:24 PM
Derek, you might take a look at NFHS 2-32-3.

ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing? 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Badger1 on February 11, 2019, 03:07:52 PM
I am having trouble understanding this part of the new rule for timing, "Beginning next season, in addition to the above situations when the 25-second count is used, the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."  Could someone describe a situation that illustrates that part of the rule?

Also, say Team A runs 30 or more yards downfield and makes a first down with the ball dead inbounds.  Officials stop the clock (Official's time out) to move the chains and signal first down.  The RFP is then 25 seconds?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: kyfbref88 on February 11, 2019, 03:21:07 PM
My first post to this forum, although I have followed for years and appreciate all the posts and conversations.

One of the questions I have regarding the new 40 second rule is whether or not the defense will be permitted time to substitute players in response to the offense substituting players?  The wording of the press release states "...the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."

I believe in other levels, when the offense substitutes, an official stands behind the center and doesn't allow the snap until the defense has a reasonable chance to perform its respective substitutions.  I wonder if we will have a similar mechanic in NFHS - if the offense substitutes players, does the umpire hold the ball until receiving a signal from the referee to place the ball on the ground and move into position, thus allowing the defense to substitute?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 11, 2019, 03:22:43 PM
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?

With the new wording for 2019 You could "legally" have only 5 men on the LOS and as few as 1 other player on team A.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: colorado_lines on February 11, 2019, 03:34:46 PM
I am having trouble understanding this part of the new rule for timing, "Beginning next season, in addition to the above situations when the 25-second count is used, the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."  Could someone describe a situation that illustrates that part of the rule?

Also, say Team A runs 30 or more yards downfield and makes a first down with the ball dead inbounds.  Officials stop the clock (Official's time out) to move the chains and signal first down.  The RFP is then 25 seconds?

Colorado was one of the experimental states for the past few years and if the NFHS rules for the 40 second clock are the same that we had, then the 40 second clock is still used following a first down, the referee will just give a silent wind to start the game clock while the back judge has had the play clock going.  On very long plays, there is a bit of an art to this and on some plays that were really long, the back judge would delay starting the play clock for a couple seconds to give people a tiny bit of time (3 or 4 seconds) to start moving downfield.  I can think of one time that it was ever an issue after a long first down and that was in a freshman game where the teams really didn't know what they were doing anyway.  The officials timeout thing in our rule set was for penalties.  After penalty enforcement the referee would blow the ready for play and that would signal the start of the 25-second clock.

In regards to the poster who asked about defensive matchups, if they are using the same rule set as we used there is no provision for defensive matchups.  I'm sure there are some teams out there on offense that will use it to their advantage but I can't recall a case in the past 3 years where a defensive coach in one of my games seemed bothered by the lack of a matchup rule and I can't recall a case where the defense struggled to get the people they wanted on the field for any reason than their own disorganization.

Once again, this is all assuming that NFHS intends to use the same rules that we experimented with.  Here they were a great success and varsity teams took about 3 games to get it 90% figured out; subvarsity sometimes took the whole first season.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 11, 2019, 03:58:16 PM
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?

You might well be Derek, from what I can gather (without seeing any actual rule revisions) is that the new definition states, "A legal acrimmagw formation now requires AT LEAST 5 offensive players on their LOS (instead of 7) with NO MORE than 4 "Backs", which suggests if a team wants to play with 9 people, they can do it.  I wouldn't expect a lot of teams will exercise that option, but it appears to be available to them should they wish to.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on February 11, 2019, 06:14:43 PM
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?

You either meet the requirements for being a lineman or the requirements for being a back.  If youíre in ďno-manís landĒ, itís an illegal formation.  For 2019, there can be no more than 4 backs, or fewer than 5 linemen to constitute a legal formation.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on February 11, 2019, 06:19:43 PM
Ralph:

Alabama allowed IR during the regular season last year, as well as the postseason.  Will that option still be available by state adoption?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: js in sc on February 11, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?
Previous rules required 7 men on the line with no more than 4 in the backfield.  If A came out with 10 players, 6 on the line, they were penalized.  So in addition to being short handed, they were penalized for illegal formation.  Now, if they come out with less than 11, as long as there are 5 linemen and no more that 4 in the backfield, no harm no foul.  Also, a lot of private schools can not field more than 9 players.  This makes the rules consistent for them also.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: 1Cor9:25 on February 11, 2019, 07:38:39 PM
I imagine the 5 on the line remains with the numbering requirements. I'm curious what the impact will be on the 8-9 player rules. Or 6 for that matter.

I like the consistency of the 40 second play clock for varsity games, I'm concerned about the challenge in subvarsity games with smaller crews.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Rich on February 11, 2019, 10:35:38 PM
You either meet the requirements for being a lineman or the requirements for being a back.  If youíre in ďno-manís landĒ, itís an illegal formation.  For 2019, there can be no more than 4 backs, or fewer than 5 linemen to constitute a legal formation.

Blade of grass philosophy has pretty much eliminated the "no man's land" where I work.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on February 12, 2019, 05:31:24 AM
Blade of grass philosophy has pretty much eliminated the "no man's land" where I work.

In other words, you let Ďem cheat.  Iím seeing way too many OTs trying to emulate the college & pro players by starting in ďno-manís landĒ (or worse).
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2019, 06:03:26 AM
In other words, you let Ďem cheat.  Iím seeing way too many OTs trying to emulate the college & pro players by starting in ďno-manís landĒ (or worse).

Thatís easy. If heís not clearly on the line heís off. If heís not on it doesnít matter if heís in no mans land or in the backfield, its gonna be a foul.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: HLinNC on February 12, 2019, 07:12:54 AM
Quote
Don't think I've ever seen a tackle by the nameplate, so that is what it is.

Happens quite a bit and the coaches would go apoplectic when you would explain that the tackler didn't grab the inside collar of the jersey or shoulder pad.  This just make the rule what coaches thought it was/should be.

As to tripping the runner, I can recall maybe two occurrences in my 25 years of officiating.  Not sure it was necessary but I think it gives us good cover for continuing to make hurdling illegal.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 12, 2019, 07:27:48 AM
Ralph:

Alabama allowed IR during the regular season last year, as well as the postseason.  Will that option still be available by state adoption?
Yes, under 1-7 (state's rights) IR can be used at any time and in any form with your state's adoption.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: FLAHL on February 12, 2019, 08:14:56 AM

This will eliminate most "3rd base coach" signals for unbalanced line, etc.

Exactly.  And itís about time!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 12, 2019, 08:41:14 AM
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing? 

To make it easy:

We already have a rule that says you need 5 linemen numbered 50-79 to have a legal formation.  I think that's what the press release meant by the 5 linemen part.

So basically, as long as you have 5 linemen 50-79, and you have 4 or fewer backs, you're good.

You rarely see less than 5 linemen 50-79, so really, all you are counting is backs in the backfield.

The only signal we should be using now as LOS officials is the "punch off" the widest player on the LOS.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 12, 2019, 08:43:50 AM
My first post to this forum, although I have followed for years and appreciate all the posts and conversations.

One of the questions I have regarding the new 40 second rule is whether or not the defense will be permitted time to substitute players in response to the offense substituting players?  The wording of the press release states "...the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."

I believe in other levels, when the offense substitutes, an official stands behind the center and doesn't allow the snap until the defense has a reasonable chance to perform its respective substitutions.  I wonder if we will have a similar mechanic in NFHS - if the offense substitutes players, does the umpire hold the ball until receiving a signal from the referee to place the ball on the ground and move into position, thus allowing the defense to substitute?

If you think about it, there was nothing preventing teams from doing that with a 25 sec clock, so no need for a match-up rule.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 12, 2019, 09:34:04 AM
My first post to this forum, although I have followed for years and appreciate all the posts and conversations.

One of the questions I have regarding the new 40 second rule is whether or not the defense will be permitted time to substitute players in response to the offense substituting players?  The wording of the press release states "...the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."

I believe in other levels, when the offense substitutes, an official stands behind the center and doesn't allow the snap until the defense has a reasonable chance to perform its respective substitutions.  I wonder if we will have a similar mechanic in NFHS - if the offense substitutes players, does the umpire hold the ball until receiving a signal from the referee to place the ball on the ground and move into position, thus allowing the defense to substitute?

Welcome, KYFBREF, to our forum. I hope you'll find it both enjoyable and informative. Bossman answered your question well. While we've adopted the 40" clock basics, there are differences between our code and others. One of the underlying reasons for it's passage was that the pace of game should be controlled by the offense and not the officials. Once the offense is up to the line and ready, the defense is expected to be ready,too.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 12, 2019, 11:30:11 AM
I always heard/saw it as "in the hole" instead of "hold". The person next on the ladder to reach the deck, would be sitting in a hole... somebody in the "hold" sounds like he's locked up in the brig.
My bad, NCwingman, it is "hole" not "hold". Not to be confused with a chant from my daze of youth : "Hey, batter; your bat's got a HOLE in it".

A noteworthy POE is "Proper Procedures for Weather Delays."
While still in draft form, the crux is :

If Thor ,the Greek God of Lightning, arrives close to halftime you can .....
(1) resume the end of 2nd quarter 30 minutes after he leaves AND proceed with halftime after he leaves, by mutual agreement of the coaches  the halftime can be shortened to 10 minutes;
(2) by mutual agreement of the coaches and referee, the 2nd qtr. could be ended and the weather delay could be considered halftime;
(3) CAN'T CONSIDER THE DELAY HALFTIME AND STILL FINISH 2ND QTR. AFTER.

 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: markrischard on February 12, 2019, 12:02:27 PM
My bad, NCwingman, it is "hole" not "hold". Not to be confused with a chant from my daze of youth : "Hey, batter; your bat's got a HOLE in it".

A noteworthy POE is "Proper Procedures for Weather Delays."
While still in draft form, the crux is :

If Thor ,the Greek God of Lightning, arrives close to halftime you can .....
(1) resume the end of 2nd quarter 30 minutes after he leaves AND proceed with halftime after he leaves, by mutual agreement of the coaches  the halftime can be shortened to 10 minutes;
(2) by mutual agreement of the coaches and referee, the 2nd qtr. could be ended and the weather delay could be considered halftime;
(3) CAN'T CONSIDER THE DELAY HALFTIME AND STILL FINISH 2ND QTR. AFTER.

Interesting. (3) is exactly how we handled a weather delay in a JV game this past season.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Morningrise on February 12, 2019, 12:03:28 PM
Colorado was one of the experimental states for the past few years and if the NFHS rules for the 40 second clock are the same that we had, then the 40 second clock is still used following a first down, the referee will just give a silent wind to start the game clock while the back judge has had the play clock going.

The NCAA mechanic has no silent winds. The R blows his whistle whenever *either* clock needs to start, i.e. when winding the GC or when the PC is 25.* It'll be interesting to see if Fed recommends the same.

I also find the absence of a Fed "matchup" rule surprising, but that's a separate issue from a 40/25 play clock. I'm new to this Fed thing, so let me ask: Suppose it's 4th down and Team A sends out the punt unit. Team B responds by sending out the return team. Is there nothing in the rules that prevents Team A's punt team from sprinting to the line and snapping before Team B is ready?

* (or when the PC is 40 following a Team B injury/helmet - NCAA rule)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 12, 2019, 12:57:37 PM
Thatís easy. If heís not clearly on the line heís off. If heís not on it doesnít matter if heís in no mans land or in the backfield, its gonna be a foul.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I generally take the opposite approach (depending on situation). If you're not clearly a back, then you're on the line.

This tends to avoid formation fouls at the expense of illegal man downfield... if it's a running play or screen pass, then it's not a foul and you give the kid a talking to to make sure he's on or off later when it might matter.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2019, 01:02:48 PM
If you think about it, there was nothing preventing teams from doing that with a 25 sec clock, so no need for a match-up rule.

I believe as the new rule evolves, we will see a match-up requirement. It happened at the NCAA level because offenses were taking advantage of the :40 by snapping the ball as quickly as possible. They would have a sub ready, as soon as the ball was dead they would sub out, and the defense wasn't having time to match up. It won't be long before HS teams will do the same thing. Coaches will start crying, and we will have the match up rule..
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2019, 01:06:19 PM
The NCAA mechanic has no silent winds. The R blows his whistle whenever *either* clock needs to start, i.e. when winding the GC or when the PC is 25.* It'll be interesting to see if Fed recommends the same.

I also find the absence of a Fed "matchup" rule surprising, but that's a separate issue from a 40/25 play clock. I'm new to this Fed thing, so let me ask: Suppose it's 4th down and Team A sends out the punt unit. Team B responds by sending out the return team. Is there nothing in the rules that prevents Team A's punt team from sprinting to the line and snapping before Team B is ready?

Not any more. Used to the WH could withhold the READY FOR PLAY until both teams were READY FOR PLAY..
Also, I think the match up rule in the NCAA was a direct result of the 40 second play clock. Because the ball was deemed ready for play just as soon as it was spotted, offenses were taking advantage of quick substitutions to mismatch the defense. Hence the "match-up rule."
* (or when the PC is 40 following a Team B injury/helmet - NCAA rule)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2019, 01:11:24 PM
I generally take the opposite approach (depending on situation). If you're not clearly a back, then you're on the line.

This tends to avoid formation fouls at the expense of illegal man downfield... if it's a running play or screen pass, then it's not a foul and you give the kid a talking to to make sure he's on or off later when it might matter.

I feel ya, but I kinda take 'Bama's approach. I think we let way too many OT's line up way too deep. I see some very bad formations on Hudl every week. I would rather throw a quick flag on A early because the guy "wasn't quite on the line" than to have to deal with him off the line all night.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Kalle on February 12, 2019, 01:47:56 PM
Also, I think the match up rule in the NCAA was a direct result of the 40 second play clock. Because the ball was deemed ready for play just as soon as it was spotted, offenses were taking advantage of quick substitutions to mismatch the defense. Hence the "match-up rule

Sorry but no. The 40/25 play clock was instituted in 2008 and the match-up rule was a 2000 change.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2019, 01:52:15 PM
Sorry but no. The 40/25 play clock was instituted in 2008 and the match-up rule was a 2000 change.
Really? Well I'm confused. I admit I'm not a student of NCAA rules. But I was under the assumption that by "match-up" we were talking about the umpire standing over the ball with the WH holding his hands outstretched, holding up the snap until the defense had the opportunity to substitute. That rule was just instituted in the last year or so, right? Because the offense was subbing and then snapping before the defense could react?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Kalle on February 12, 2019, 02:06:25 PM
Really? Well I'm confused. I admit I'm not a student of NCAA rules. But I was under the assumption that by "match-up" we were talking about the umpire standing over the ball with the WH holding his hands outstretched, holding up the snap until the defense had the opportunity to substitute. That rule was just instituted in the last year or so, right? Because the offense was subbing and then snapping before the defense could react?

What has changed since 2000 is that nowadays team A is not allowed to snap the ball. Back in 2000, the action by team A was immediately a foul and got penalized 5/15 yards. This got changed in 2004 and the rule has been the same since then.

2000 rule language:

"While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage and snapping the ball with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. The following procedure will be applied [5/15 yard penalties]"

2004 change:

"When Team A sends in its substitutes, the officials will not allow the ball to be snapped until Team B has been given an opportunity to substitute. While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play. Team B must react promptly with its substitutes."
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Kalle on February 12, 2019, 02:15:00 PM
What has changed since 2000 is that nowadays team A is not allowed to snap the ball. Back in 2000, the action by team A was immediately a foul and got penalized 5/15 yards. This got changed in 2004 and the rule has been the same since then.

If I remember correctly, the 2000 change was prompted by teams waiting on a 4th down for the play clock to start and then mass substituting either the FG unit or back to the regular offense, and NCAA wanted to get rid of it as being unfair.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2019, 02:18:00 PM
Gotcha, learn something new every day. So in regard to the :40, what brought about the "Iron cross" signal from the WH and the Umpire (now the C) delaying the snap? Was that just a mechanics inserted to ensure this rule was enforced?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Kalle on February 12, 2019, 02:48:29 PM
Gotcha, learn something new every day. So in regard to the :40, what brought about the "Iron cross" signal from the WH and the Umpire (now the C) delaying the snap? Was that just a mechanics inserted to ensure this rule was enforced?

Yes. I think this predates the use of O2O radios in NCAA, so a clear signal from the wings to R and U was needed.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Regno71 on February 12, 2019, 05:07:13 PM
Ralph, is there a draft or some thoughts you can share on the POE for Expanded Neutral Zone with an RPO?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on February 12, 2019, 05:18:26 PM
Interesting. (3) is exactly how we handled a weather delay in a JV game this past season.

And, exactly how I handled a ďlights outĒ delay several years ago.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 13, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
Permanently implementing the 40-second play clock is a good addition. We've been experimenting with it for 3 years and it's been a huge success. Nobody (coaches or officials) wanted to go back to the 25-second play clock.

As others have stated the sub matchup rule and 40/25 have nothing to do with each other. The ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation. The U usually has the ball down at 28-32 and steps away (now the RFP) 2-3 seconds later. That means ready for play is often 10-15 seconds after the previous play which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation. Teams that want to go faster than that generally aren't substituting. Even if they sub-right away the defense is only given 3 seconds to match up so their sub is usually done before the ball is ready for play anyway. I've always thought the sub matching should exist regardless of play clock used so maybe it will be added to NFHS eventually.

The formation rule change makes so much sense. Most wings I know were already just counting backs after verifying we had 11. That was much easier than trying to count linemen who are hard to see from the wing because they block each other out. If R/U only had 10 then you had to make sure there were no more than 3 in the backfield. It was a silly foul for the offense already playing at a disadvantage.

I'm curious to see the RPO/ENZ POE update. There has been confusion over the wording since 2 different provisions of the rule mention ineligible linemen can be 2 yards downfield and another states they can be there if they engage with a defender at the LOS. Does one overrule the other. I'm assuming this POE clarifies that and let us know which one should be enforced. If it requires a block being initiated at the LOS it will all but end RPO.

Overall good set of changes this year by the committee. No head scratchers.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Patrick E. on February 13, 2019, 11:03:02 AM
It looks like the Editorial Changes clean up some of the spillage in aisle 5 from last year regarding the penalty option for fouls by the kicking team.

Also, the Editorial changes reference 2-6-2d.  There isn't such a rule.  The correct reference is 2-6-2b.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 13, 2019, 01:36:49 PM
Permanently implementing the 40-second play clock is a good addition. We've been experimenting with it for 3 years and it's been a huge success. Nobody (coaches or officials) wanted to go back to the 25-second play clock.

As others have stated the sub matchup rule and 40/25 have nothing to do with each other. The ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation. The U usually has the ball down at 28-32 and steps away (now the RFP) 2-3 seconds later. That means ready for play is often 10-15 seconds after the previous play which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation.

Can I ask a question? I'm having trouble with the :40, and I admit a lot of that is lack of understanding. You say that it was a big success in the experiment, and I admit you can't argue with experience. My question is what is it about the :40 that makes it such a big success? Especially in light of the comments you made after that referring to "the ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation." If the :40 didn't change the time frame, exactly what did it change? Also, the "which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation" is confusing as well. If that's true, and I think it is, it seems like the :40 doesn't change that either. It seems to me that either way, the pace of play is dictated by the ability of the crew to get the ball spotted regularly, and whether there are extra seconds on a play clock ticking doesn't factor in. Somebody help me please..
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: centexsports on February 13, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
As a Texas Referee who was skeptical when introduced, the 40/25 change has been a good change.   It hasn't shortened any of my games but for the crews that used to run long, it has helped.   You haven't gotten to the NCAA stage yet but when you do it should be easier.  After a touchdown no RFP just line up.   After a kickoff no RFP, just line up (I also announce to the teams that the ball is in play if needed).   Unless there is an administrative stoppage, no RFP.   This change has added 5 years to my right shoulder. All schools here have the 40/25 clock but they have broken several times.   My BJ has the belt clip timer and stays on top of it when needed.   Good crews will not have any problems with this.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 13, 2019, 02:17:29 PM
So the major benefit of the :40 is to make it easier on the WH? Why do the coaches like it so much then? Because I'm sure that thought never crossed their minds..  :sTiR:
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Regno71 on February 13, 2019, 02:57:13 PM
I'm guessing, but this comes from my experience: In our state the varsity crews are assigned from a pool every game, I rarely work with the same individual over the course of a season. Some are great - efficient, hustling, consistent. Some... not so much. Part of my pregame is spent stressing the dead ball intervals and 12-15 seconds to RFP, but with some guys I STILL find that part of my game is spent talking to crew members and telling them to hustle, focus, get the ball set so I can blow the RFP, and a stern talking at halftime. Let's face it, some officials can be chatty cathy's and slow things down.  hEaDbAnG

I doubt the participants on this forum (I mean, really, we are in the offseason talking here, I'd love to work with y'all) and those who have strong crews that stay together through the season are going to be affected by this. It shouldn't make much of a difference, just new mechanics. But if this change helps speed up the slower crews and keeps them focused, that's a great step up. I imagine most coaches get irritated watching a crew take their time between plays, resulting in delayed RFPs.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: toma on February 13, 2019, 03:16:13 PM
When meeting with the HC's before the start of a game I tell them we try to be rhythm, the quicker you get your plays into the QB the more plays you will run during the course of the game. Giving HC more time to think up a play? doesn't make sense.
 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 13, 2019, 04:36:35 PM
I'm guessing, but this comes from my experience: In our state the varsity crews are assigned from a pool every game, I rarely work with the same individual over the course of a season. Some are great - efficient, hustling, consistent. Some... not so much. Part of my pregame is spent stressing the dead ball intervals and 12-15 seconds to RFP, but with some guys I STILL find that part of my game is spent talking to crew members and telling them to hustle, focus, get the ball set so I can blow the RFP, and a stern talking at halftime. Let's face it, some officials can be chatty cathy's and slow things down.  hEaDbAnG

I doubt the participants on this forum (I mean, really, we are in the offseason talking here, I'd love to work with y'all) and those who have strong crews that stay together through the season are going to be affected by this. It shouldn't make much of a difference, just new mechanics. But if this change helps speed up the slower crews and keeps them focused, that's a great step up. I imagine most coaches get irritated watching a crew take their time between plays, resulting in delayed RFPs.

I get all that and agree with u 100 percent that we need to hustle and spot the ball as quickly as possible. Iím missing the connection regarding how a 40 second clock achieves that goal. The way I see it, a slow, lazy official can be just as slow and lazy with 40 seconds on the play clock as he can with 25.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 13, 2019, 07:58:36 PM
Can I ask a question? I'm having trouble with the :40, and I admit a lot of that is lack of understanding. You say that it was a big success in the experiment, and I admit you can't argue with experience. My question is what is it about the :40 that makes it such a big success? Especially in light of the comments you made after that referring to "the ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation." If the :40 didn't change the time frame, exactly what did it change? Also, the "which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation" is confusing as well. If that's true, and I think it is, it seems like the :40 doesn't change that either. It seems to me that either way, the pace of play is dictated by the ability of the crew to get the ball spotted regularly, and whether there are extra seconds on a play clock ticking doesn't factor in. Somebody help me please..
Great question. The normal pace from dead to RFP is 12-15 seconds no matter which play clock you are using. But sometimes it may be quicker or longer. The benefit of the 40 is it doesn't matter if the ball is ready for play in 7 seconds or 20 seconds, the offense still has 40 seconds from dead to DOG. With a 25-second clock that could vary from 32 to 45 seconds. Many people incorrectly think that a 40-second play clock causes the officials to hurry up and teams will hurry up and be able to snap the ball a lot faster and that's not true. There will be times when the ball will be set and the U steps away a little quicker but teams are rarely ready to go that fast. Teams appreciate the consistent pace from dead to DOG especially when the other team is trying to burn time near the end of a half. They won't feel like the crew is delaying the start of the play clock and allowing them to burn more time.

Another benefit is what centxsports mentions in regards to winding the clock a lot less often. It's also a benefit to the ears as you are blowing your whistle a lot less too. It's one less thing to worry about for the R between plays - starting the play clock.

A final benefit is you have the ability to start the game clock a little quicker after first downs in bounds. Because it's a silent wind you can start it as the umpire is getting ready to place the ball rather than waiting until he steps away. Don't push it too much though, especially near the end of a half.

We also took advantage of a recommended mechanic of having team balls for both teams on both sides. That way we have quicker access to footballs regardless of which side the pass is thrown. It makes ball mechanics a little more efficient. That's not a required mechanic, but we did it in almost every game the past 3 years.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 14, 2019, 05:42:43 AM
Thanks Magic. Iím beginning to get the picture now. The consistency of the :40 is that coaches know they have exactly :40 to execute a play after the previous down. I knew it had to be more than just trying to get the zebras to hustle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on February 14, 2019, 06:07:47 AM
Quote from: Magician
We also took advantage of a recommended mechanic of having team balls for both teams on both sides. That way we have quicker access to footballs regardless of which side the pass is thrown. It makes ball mechanics a little more efficient. That's not a required mechanic, but we did it in almost every game the past 3 years.

Since our state is adamant about allowing ball boys on the field, what adjustments do you recommend?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 14, 2019, 08:16:47 AM
Since our state is adamant about allowing ball boys on the field, what adjustments do you recommend?

We've done ball rotation like Magician described in Western PA for many years.  At least 10.

You start the game with 2 balls from each team on the press box side (4 total), and 1 from each team on the sticks side (2 total).

All changes of possession come from the LJ / press box side.

So, the offensive team will have one ball in play and one ball on each sideline.

-Pass goes incomplete to the LJ side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the HL side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the middle - we usually use the far hash as the line of demarcation.  Anything past the far hash (opposite press box) rotates in from the HL side.  All others are from LJ side.
-Run ends near the sideline, you can spot the current ball at your feet and rotate a ball in from the ball boy if you wish.
-Ball boys shag the incomplete passes OOB.  2 ball boys are required on the LJ side and 1 on the HL side.

It's a great system.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bawags06 on February 14, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
We've done ball rotation like Magician described in Western PA for many years.  At least 10.

You start the game with 2 balls from each team on the press box side (4 total), and 1 from each team on the sticks side (2 total).

All changes of possession come from the LJ / press box side.

So, the offensive team will have one ball in play and one ball on each sideline.

-Pass goes incomplete to the LJ side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the HL side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the middle - we usually use the far hash as the line of demarcation.  Anything past the far hash (opposite press box) rotates in from the HL side.  All others are from LJ side.
-Run ends near the sideline, you can spot the current ball at your feet and rotate a ball in from the ball boy if you wish.
-Ball boys shag the incomplete passes OOB.  2 ball boys are required on the LJ side and 1 on the HL side.

It's a great system.

Bossman, I always find it interesting how different your mechanics are than what we use. (For the record, I generally like yours better.) It's funny because I'm in Western PA too, but in the Erie County region. At the varsity level, we use 5-man mechanics until we go to 7 for playoffs.

I have question about the ball boys... Does the home team provide all three?  As an LJ, I feel like I'm constantly training a new ball boy every game, including late in the season. I can't even imagine getting them to keep track of which team's ball to give me.

As a side note, with a 5-man crew, we don't place a whole lot of emphasis of rotating balls in unless the teams are throwing a lot. We don't have many strong passing teams, so we have a lot of runs between the hashes.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: refjeff on February 14, 2019, 11:31:18 AM
OK, "The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds (a) prior to a try following a score."

Why?  Why not continue to use the 40 second clock for the PAT?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 14, 2019, 11:33:33 AM
Interesting. (3) is exactly how we handled a weather delay in a JV game this past season.
IMHO, this becomes a safety issue as prescribed "rest time"  should not be heeded. When the "near the end" of the first half, some referees could consider that 2:00. others could assume 1:00 and the like. I had a big debate with the home's AD a couple of years ago and authored a POE for the manual last year.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 14, 2019, 11:37:53 AM
OK, "The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds (a) prior to a try following a score."

Why?  Why not continue to use the 40 second clock for the PAT?
While the NCAA expanded their 40" rule to this, it was not in the experimental rules by the states involved. We adopted their rule as those states had wrote it.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: prab on February 14, 2019, 11:38:04 AM
Is anyone aware of a 40/25 timing device similar to a Ready Ref?  If not, what kind of timing device have you used in areas where the 40/25 procedure has already been in use.  Does the BJ (in a 5 person crew) still visibly count down the last 5 seconds of either a 40 or 25?  In 4 man mechanics, who keeps the 40/25 clock? 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 14, 2019, 11:47:58 AM
Ralph, is there a draft or some thoughts you can share on the POE for Expanded Neutral Zone with an RPO?
At the end of our voting session the floor is open for suggestions for POEs. An extensive list is then compiled with the most floor votes choosing the top three. I believe the ENZ POE dealt with continuing contact with B by ineligible A, but have not discussed it with any members of the Executive Committee, who write the final draft.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: refjeff on February 14, 2019, 11:54:07 AM
"The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds ... (e) following an officialís time-out, with a few exceptions."

The Rules Book lists 12 types of official's time outs.   Could someone who knows for sure post which ones are the exceptions?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 14, 2019, 12:05:29 PM
"The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds ... (e) following an officialís time-out, with a few exceptions."

The Rules Book lists 12 types of official's time outs.   Could someone who knows for sure post which ones are the exceptions?

Here's the rule (2017 book).  The only one that will be 40 sec is a first down.

Easy way to think about it is if we interrupt the natural flow of the game (administrative stoppage), it goes to 25.  So if the team can't snap the ball because we as officials are doing something, then it's 25.

a. For measurement of a possible first down.
b. When a first down is declared.
c. Following a change of team possession.
d. When captains and coaches are notified of the time remaining.
e. For a player in need of equipment repair.
f. To dry or change the ball.
g. For unusual heat or humidity which may create a health risk to the players.
h. When a coach-referee conference concerning the misapplication of a rule
results in the referee altering his ruling. (3-5-1 1 )
i. After a foul, to administer the penalty.
j. For any unusual delay in getting the ball marked ready for play.
k. For a TV/radio time-out that is permitted and granted as authorized by state
association policy.
l For a one-minute intermission between the first and second and the third
and fourth periods and following a try, successful field goal or safety and
prior to the succeeding free kick.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 14, 2019, 12:08:03 PM
Is anyone aware of a 40/25 timing device similar to a Ready Ref?  If not, what kind of timing device have you used in areas where the 40/25 procedure has already been in use.  Does the BJ (in a 5 person crew) still visibly count down the last 5 seconds of either a 40 or 25?  In 4 man mechanics, who keeps the 40/25 clock? 

I heard you can get your readyref reprogrammed for $18 which includes shipping.

If you're a wristwatch guy, you have 2 choices:
1) Just use the stopwatch function to count up.
2) Keep it at 40 for the count-down timer.  You just have to know that 0:15 = 0:00 if you're in a 25 sec clock situation.

You'll never be able to fidget with the watch correctly if you're flipping back and forth between 40 and 25 with a count down timer.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 14, 2019, 12:11:58 PM
I have question about the ball boys... Does the home team provide all three?  As an LJ, I feel like I'm constantly training a new ball boy every game, including late in the season. I can't even imagine getting them to keep track of which team's ball to give me.

Typically home team has 2 ball boys and the visitors bring 1, and that's the perfect scenario.  Each person only holds footballs for one team.

On backwards fields (where the home team goes opposite press box), we usually just get one of the extra home team ball boys to go to the other sideline if the visitors don't have an extra ball boy they can wrangle up.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Kalle on February 14, 2019, 03:37:32 PM
Casio makes a watch model which can be set to eg. 15-10-15 with vibrating alarms at each interval, so you can easily run 40/25 seconds.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Morningrise on February 14, 2019, 04:00:17 PM
Can I ask a question? I'm having trouble with the :40, and I admit a lot of that is lack of understanding. You say that it was a big success in the experiment, and I admit you can't argue with experience. My question is what is it about the :40 that makes it such a big success? Especially in light of the comments you made after that referring to "the ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation." If the :40 didn't change the time frame, exactly what did it change? Also, the "which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation" is confusing as well. If that's true, and I think it is, it seems like the :40 doesn't change that either. It seems to me that either way, the pace of play is dictated by the ability of the crew to get the ball spotted regularly, and whether there are extra seconds on a play clock ticking doesn't factor in. Somebody help me please..

When I was a new white hat in MA (which used 25 only, as an exception to NCAA) I always heard two things from veteran umpires and clock operators:

1. Take your time before the RFP. We don't want a dozen cheap delay-of-games. If it's crunch time, start being more strict and tell the coach "remember, you got 25 seconds."

and

2. Come on, kid, hurry up and wind the clock on first downs. We like white hats who keep the clock moving.

So now with the 40/25, I don't have to deal with that contradictory "advice" anymore. Because even though I'm not a new WH anymore, I know the other officials are still thinking it: "why won't he wind it earlier?" So now I can wind it without worrying that I just pulled a "quick pitch" on Team A to the tune of 10-12 seconds.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Morningrise on February 14, 2019, 04:02:36 PM
I heard you can get your readyref reprogrammed for $18 which includes shipping.

If you're a wristwatch guy, you have 2 choices:
1) Just use the stopwatch function to count up.
2) Keep it at 40 for the count-down timer.  You just have to know that 0:15 = 0:00 if you're in a 25 sec clock situation.

You'll never be able to fidget with the watch correctly if you're flipping back and forth between 40 and 25 with a count down timer.

How about this - just get a second watch. One on each arm. Make one red and one green and pretend you're a wrestling ref! Okay but seriously, if I get any BJ gigs this year, I might actually do this.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Morningrise on February 14, 2019, 04:06:13 PM
Another benefit is what centxsports mentions in regards to winding the clock a lot less often. It's also a benefit to the ears as you are blowing your whistle a lot less too.

One time I cracked a rib while ice skating and had a game at WH the next week, and let me tell you, I became ACUTELY aware of how often the WH has to blow his whistle.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 14, 2019, 05:17:21 PM
Since our state is adamant about allowing ball boys on the field, what adjustments do you recommend?
If they are OK with it, it still works. I assume your R made sure the ball boy was clear before blowing the RFP. Now the U needs to stay on the ball until the ball boy clears. Nothing really has to change.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 14, 2019, 05:20:54 PM
Typically home team has 2 ball boys and the visitors bring 1, and that's the perfect scenario.  Each person only holds footballs for one team.

On backwards fields (where the home team goes opposite press box), we usually just get one of the extra home team ball boys to go to the other sideline if the visitors don't have an extra ball boy they can wrangle up.
For us each usually provides at least 2. We have had a few occasions where the visiting team asks if they can send one of their ball boys over to the home side to make sure they aren't doing anything unethical with their footballs. As long as they are OK with it so are we. We also let the home team coach know about it. We monitor it for any issues, but there hasn't been any in the games where it's happened. It's always best to have at least 2 on each side though. Each has one team's balls so they don't get confused on which ball to give you. Plus one can chase the long incomplete pass while the other gets to the new ball in. You can make it work with one but unless they are exceptional it can be a nightmare.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 14, 2019, 05:25:57 PM
Thanks Magic. Iím beginning to get the picture now. The consistency of the :40 is that coaches know they have exactly :40 to execute a play after the previous down. I knew it had to be more than just trying to get the zebras to hustle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct. So much of the focus now and when we did our experiment and when we added it in NCAA was about the start of the RFP when that doesn't really change (it will still be usually 12-15 seconds after dead ball but sometimes 7-20). It's more about the time an offense has to get the ball snapped before a DOG. It's now consistent! You may have a few snaps per game a little quicker because the U steps away before the R would have previously blown his whistle. I had to white hat a middle school tournament this winter that didn't use our local experiment and it was a pain to remember when to start the 25. I had various things I was always doing during dead balls, and I wasn't always watching the U to know when it was 3-5 seconds after he placed the ball. I did forget entirely a couple times. It made me really appreciate the 40-second clock even more. I just didn't have to worry about it most of the time.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
I heard you can get your readyref reprogrammed for $18 which includes shipping.

If you're a wristwatch guy, you have 2 choices:
1) Just use the stopwatch function to count up.
2) Keep it at 40 for the count-down timer.  You just have to know that 0:15 = 0:00 if you're in a 25 sec clock situation.

You'll never be able to fidget with the watch correctly if you're flipping back and forth between 40 and 25 with a count down timer.

In the past, I've been coming up with interesting solutions to use my countdown timer to handle the 25 second clock and the 45 second timeout. Usually, I have it set to 20 seconds so I start signalling for the last five... so 45 seconds on a timeout is 20+reset time+20+wait two/three seconds... obviously less crucial if the tweets come at 44 or 46 seconds. We're not trying to time a commercial break or anything that precise.

In other news, I just got one of them fancy "smart" watches and I wonder how hard it would be to program an app-thingy that can hopefully toggle easier... (aka famous last words)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Regno71 on February 15, 2019, 12:33:23 PM
In other news, I just got one of them fancy "smart" watches and I wonder how hard it would be to program an app-thingy that can hopefully toggle easier... (aka famous last words)

I reprogrammed my RefSmart last night to hit the 25/40. But I was also looking at smart watches and found this - it looks interesting.  Disclaimer, I have not downloaded it or used it, so if anyone is using it I would be interested in a review. It is for Android:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.refereetimer.TimerMyActivity&hl=en_US&fbclid=IwAR0O3MrC1Dn1JwXqugsgqyWoWvQxltLvrmbpyRxDv_92-pDJJkFQ2Nyk-o0 (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.refereetimer.TimerMyActivity&hl=en_US&fbclid=IwAR0O3MrC1Dn1JwXqugsgqyWoWvQxltLvrmbpyRxDv_92-pDJJkFQ2Nyk-o0)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 15, 2019, 03:38:16 PM
My watch isn't *that* smart... and if it was, I'm not sure I'd want to take it out on a football field. The one I have is a Garmin GPS meant for running, but you can program apps and widgets. Workout timers and the like are pretty common, but nothing that meets exact needs seems to be available.

Also, that one costs $5. That's like $5 more than I ever feel like spending on an app... I'll just program my own, it'll be cheaper and easier, right?

If I do succeed, I'll post a link in case anybody else wants to use it, but no promises.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 16, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
I'm hearing creative suggestions from some of my local zebras ,non of which I would  really support, but I'll throw 'em out for your opinions  :sTiR:....,

(1) If the clock is running AND the BJ is facing it, mentally record the 40" off the clock. If not running, hit the TO switch on ReadyRef and give 'em 45.

(2) Hit 25" on ReadyRef and could last 15" down after buzzer goes off.

(3) Do it the ole' fashioned way from the pre-Ready Ref era and do it with a quick glance at your watch.

We mammals are the most creative critters on the planet and am sure we'll find a way....possibly even buying a new ReadyRef  pi1eOn.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: prab on February 16, 2019, 12:08:24 PM
2019 EDITORIAL CHANGES
2-6-2d, 5-2-2, 5-2-4, 6-5-4, 7-2-5a, 8-5-2 EXCEPTION, 9-3-8 PENALTY, 10-4-2c EXCEPTION, 10-5-1j,

The change itself is not detailed.  However, could it be that the word "down" has been removed? 

Recall that when the 2018 changes were listed on the NFHS web site the new rule called for most Fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick to fall under the "Special Enforcement Rules".   However, when the rule book was published it was changed to during a "kick down".  We generally agreed that "kick" and "kick down" had different definitions.  If the word "down" has been removed, the rule will read as most of us thought that it should have been.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 18, 2019, 07:37:42 AM
2019 EDITORIAL CHANGES
2-6-2d, 5-2-2, 5-2-4, 6-5-4, 7-2-5a, 8-5-2 EXCEPTION, 9-3-8 PENALTY, 10-4-2c EXCEPTION, 10-5-1j,

The change itself is not detailed.  However, could it be that the word "down" has been removed? 

Recall that when the 2018 changes were listed on the NFHS web site the new rule called for most Fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick to fall under the "Special Enforcement Rules".   However, when the rule book was published it was changed to during a "kick down".  We generally agreed that "kick" and "kick down" had different definitions.  If the word "down" has been removed, the rule will read as most of us thought that it should have been.
Where I'm not on the Editorial Committee, editorial changes are beyond my pay grade. We'll all have to wait for our new rule books to arrive to know for sure.

PS : WITH THIS POST (#92) WE HAVE SURPASSED "SUNGLASSES" AS THE MOST POSTED TOPIC IN THE MODERN ERA 8] 8] 8] 8] 8] (5-MAN CREW)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 18, 2019, 10:19:32 AM
Something that stuck me as I'm away from my rule book at the moment (somebody should double check if the verbiage is correct).

Assuming that the editorial change is removing "down" from "kick down", the rule would then allow for fouls "during a free or scrimmage kick". It would stand to reason that this removes fouls after the end of the kick from tacking on.

However, does "during the kick" include the entirety of the loose ball play, which encompass all action prior to the loose ball (10-3-1)? This is moot in the case of a free kick since the kick starts the down, but does the illegal formation prior to a scrimmage kick still have the tack on option? I would argue that it *should*, but also thinking that there's some other random arbitrary word in a different rule that prevents that.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 18, 2019, 02:56:31 PM
Something that stuck me as I'm away from my rule book at the moment (somebody should double check if the verbiage is correct).

Assuming that the editorial change is removing "down" from "kick down", the rule would then allow for fouls "during a free or scrimmage kick". It would stand to reason that this removes fouls after the end of the kick from tacking on.

However, does "during the kick" include the entirety of the loose ball play, which encompass all action prior to the loose ball (10-3-1)? This is moot in the case of a free kick since the kick starts the down, but does the illegal formation prior to a scrimmage kick still have the tack on option? I would argue that it *should*, but also thinking that there's some other random arbitrary word in a different rule that prevents that.
That's exactly what it should do. The idea is to remove the option of only enforcing the penalty on a scrimmage kick at the previous spot. To over simplify this with the intent of this type of rule, what the change last year was doing was giving the receiving team the option to tack on the foul by the kicking team if previously the only option was to enforce from the previous spot assuming they were going to put the ball in play next with a regular scrimmage down. Of course with HS rules they also have the option to tack on to try or free kick if they return the kick for a TD. I think that's a silly provision but whatever. It's not likely to happen anyway so I don't worry about it.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 18, 2019, 07:30:34 PM
Of course with HS rules they also have the option to tack on to try or free kick if they return the kick for a TD. I think that's a silly provision but whatever. It's not likely to happen anyway so I don't worry about it.

This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 18, 2019, 09:48:16 PM
This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.

Right.  "Succeeding spot" gets a little murky in this play:

Team A is in an illegal formation at the snap.  Team B returns the punt to the A25.  Time expires for the 2nd qtr during the down.

So do they get to tack on 5 from the 25 and have B 1/10 @ A20 with an untimed down?

Or, does "succeeding spot" imply "live treated as dead" and the 5 yards goes on the 2nd half kickoff?

I think the former is how we should be enforcing it (because if, say, B roughs the kicker, we'd offset these fouls.  Can't do that if it's a true "succeeding spot" foul).

However, "succeeding spot" wording causes some confusion.

Similar to "kick down" vs "kick play".
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 18, 2019, 10:17:51 PM
This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.
I agree but in that case they should either have the option to decline the penalty or enforce previous spot. They will always choose to decline because they'll want the score. Giving them the option to enforce on the try is silly.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 18, 2019, 10:20:00 PM
Right.  "Succeeding spot" gets a little murky in this play:

Team A is in an illegal formation at the snap.  Team B returns the punt to the A25.  Time expires for the 2nd qtr during the down.

So do they get to tack on 5 from the 25 and have B 1/10 @ A20 with an untimed down?

Or, does "succeeding spot" imply "live treated as dead" and the 5 yards goes on the 2nd half kickoff?

I think the former is how we should be enforcing it (because if, say, B roughs the kicker, we'd offset these fouls.  Can't do that if it's a true "succeeding spot" foul).

However, "succeeding spot" wording causes some confusion.

Similar to "kick down" vs "kick play".
Common sense says you extend the period for one play if they accept which is what the rules say. They may choose to decline the penalty to allow the half to end. You extend the period if an accepted penalty occurs during the down. R has the option of 5 yards previous spot or 5 yards succeeding spot since they will be the ones to next put the ball in play.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 19, 2019, 01:40:04 PM
I agree but in that case they should either have the option to decline the penalty or enforce previous spot. They will always choose to decline because they'll want the score. Giving them the option to enforce on the try is silly.

Agreed. The entire "take the score and the foul" addition is silly in my book, but unfortunately it's reality. In this particular instance, I can't think of any reason why R can't keep the score and have the penalty enforced on the try.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bigjohn on February 20, 2019, 09:33:43 AM
https://ready-ref.com/nfhs-rule-change/nfhs-rule-change-personal-timers/

Or now you should wear 2 ready refs! More toys on the tool belt!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 20, 2019, 11:48:15 AM
This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.
When we added bridge fouls (8-2-3) in 2003, the concern was to carry over fouls that could have been cheap shots that occurred when a touchdown was apparent. It was then felt that if the foul occurred prior to COP, the fouling player wouldn't have known there was an apparent touchdown by the opponents was soon to happen. This prompted us to apply a bridge foul only if it occurred after COP. With that in mind, it would be hard for me to understand that if we had an IF on K and a TD return by R, the IF could be bridged over. I have a call in to the author and have the solution soon.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 20, 2019, 02:29:31 PM
https://ready-ref.com/nfhs-rule-change/nfhs-rule-change-personal-timers/

Or now you should wear 2 ready refs! More toys on the tool belt!

Glad to see that you are still up and about, Big John. I hope your interest in Ready Ref shows an interest in joining the ranks of  z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ (5-man crew) ! Your post was the 100th on this topic as it enters rare air.

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:  X   10   pHiNzuP
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 20, 2019, 04:22:57 PM
When we added bridge fouls (8-2-3) in 2003, the concern was to carry over fouls that could have been cheap shots that occurred when a touchdown was apparent. It was then felt that if the foul occurred prior to COP, the fouling player wouldn't have known there was an apparent touchdown by the opponents was soon to happen. This prompted us to apply a bridge foul only if it occurred after COP. With that in mind, it would be hard for me to understand that if we had an IF on K and a TD return by R, the IF could be bridged over. I have a call in to the author and have the solution soon.

From a fundamental enforcement perspective, I agree with NOT allowing bridging for fouls prior to COP. In any other situation, if A fouls prior to a COP, B must decline the foul if they wish to keep the ball. It wouldn't make sense that they'd get to enforce the foul if they scored a TD, but not if he gets tackled at the 2.

I think this will be hard to fix without creating more exceptions and loopholes, but a definitive case play just so we're all on the same page would be nice at least.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 21, 2019, 09:28:17 AM
From a fundamental enforcement perspective, I agree with NOT allowing bridging for fouls prior to COP. In any other situation, if A fouls prior to a COP, B must decline the foul if they wish to keep the ball. It wouldn't make sense that they'd get to enforce the foul if they scored a TD, but not if he gets tackled at the 2.

I think this will be hard to fix without creating more exceptions and loopholes, but a definitive case play just so we're all on the same page would be nice at least.
I don't think it would be hard. Just make it a requirement that the tack on option only applies if K fouls prior to the end of the kick and R will be next to snap the ball in a regular scrimmage play. That would eliminate the ability to tack on to a try or kickoff.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 21, 2019, 11:43:34 AM
I don't think it would be hard. Just make it a requirement that the tack on option only applies if K fouls prior to the end of the kick and R will be next to snap the ball in a regular scrimmage play. That would eliminate the ability to tack on to a try or kickoff.

Ooh... hypothetical pot stirring time. K commits a foul prior to the end of the kick. What if R fair catches the kick and elects to put the ball in play by fair catch kick? Do they have to decline the foul because they don't put the ball in play via snap or in a "regular scrimmage play"?

There's also the issue of changes of possession after the end of the kick. K is in an illegal formation for a punt. R catches the ball, fumbles, K recovers, K blocks in the back, K fumbles and R recovers and is downed (ignoring possible TD enforcement for the moment). Can R enforce the IF foul from the succeeding spot, but not the block in the back? They should have to decline the BIB to keep the ball after that COP, but they don't have to do that for fouls prior to the end of a scrimmage kick? -- Or do they because the enforcement spot for the IF foul *should* be the end of R's initial run (spot of R's fumble), not the dead ball spot. (I don't think it is, but it should be).

Yeah, that won't happen, but it's high school football... crazy things happen on punt plays.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 21, 2019, 12:55:10 PM
After further review from the replay official (author). ....

If the tack-on rule is to be applied, it is at succeeding spot. If there is a TD, the succeeding spot is the PAT. If the play ended at K's 2, the tack-on would be half the distance to K's 1.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 25, 2019, 05:36:52 PM
Ooh... hypothetical pot stirring time. K commits a foul prior to the end of the kick. What if R fair catches the kick and elects to put the ball in play by fair catch kick? Do they have to decline the foul because they don't put the ball in play via snap or in a "regular scrimmage play"?

There's also the issue of changes of possession after the end of the kick. K is in an illegal formation for a punt. R catches the ball, fumbles, K recovers, K blocks in the back, K fumbles and R recovers and is downed (ignoring possible TD enforcement for the moment). Can R enforce the IF foul from the succeeding spot, but not the block in the back? They should have to decline the BIB to keep the ball after that COP, but they don't have to do that for fouls prior to the end of a scrimmage kick? -- Or do they because the enforcement spot for the IF foul *should* be the end of R's initial run (spot of R's fumble), not the dead ball spot. (I don't think it is, but it should be).

Yeah, that won't happen, but it's high school football... crazy things happen on punt plays.
If you want to keep it simple then don't allow the tack on if they decide to do the fair catch kick. We probably had 4 or 5 tack on enforcements on scrimmage kicks this year. I doubt we've had 4 or 5 fair catch kicks collectively on this board for our entire careers. I think we aren't going to create too many issues by keeping that simple.

You could write it either way as far as I'm concerned. R could lose the right to tack on any foul if they lose possessions after the kick ends (simplest option). Or if they at least have possession at the end of the down and didn't commit a foul before the last gaining possession, then they can have the tack on option for fouls prior to the end of the kick.

Doing bridge enforcements for non-UNS and non-PF is silly as is. To do it as a kick tack on is ridiculous. The idea of the tack on is to give the receiving team the option to enforce the penalty without having to rekick. If they are going to snap the ball at least they get some of that yardage. If they score, decline the penalty and move on.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 25, 2019, 09:21:56 PM
If you want to keep it simple then don't allow the tack on if they decide to do the fair catch kick. We probably had 4 or 5 tack on enforcements on scrimmage kicks this year. I doubt we've had 4 or 5 fair catch kicks collectively on this board for our entire careers. I think we aren't going to create too many issues by keeping that simple.

I would disagree with this. Allow it for a fair catch kick, because the penalty yardage might encourage the kick.

You could write it either way as far as I'm concerned. R could lose the right to tack on any foul if they lose possessions after the kick ends (simplest option). Or if they at least have possession at the end of the down and didn't commit a foul before the last gaining possession, then they can have the tack on option for fouls prior to the end of the kick.

Doing bridge enforcements for non-UNS and non-PF is silly as is. To do it as a kick tack on is ridiculous. The idea of the tack on is to give the receiving team the option to enforce the penalty without having to rekick. If they are going to snap the ball at least they get some of that yardage. If they score, decline the penalty and move on.

IMHO, what needs to happen is that the basic spot for any of the "tack on" fouls can be a) the previous spot, b) a spot of first touching (if allowed as a succeeding spot) or c) the end of the related run immediately after the kick. If R loses possession of the ball, and then regains possession, after the kick, they can't enforce from the succeeding spot -- just as if it were any other scrimmage down.

As you were saying, if R scores on the return, since the foul happened prior to the COP, they must decline the foul.

Obviously that's not what the rule states, but in the world where I have a vote, that's what I would propose.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 26, 2019, 08:22:59 AM
I would disagree with this. Allow it for a fair catch kick, because the penalty yardage might encourage the kick.

IMHO, what needs to happen is that the basic spot for any of the "tack on" fouls can be a) the previous spot, b) a spot of first touching (if allowed as a succeeding spot) or c) the end of the related run immediately after the kick. If R loses possession of the ball, and then regains possession, after the kick, they can't enforce from the succeeding spot -- just as if it were any other scrimmage down.

As you were saying, if R scores on the return, since the foul happened prior to the COP, they must decline the foul.

Obviously that's not what the rule states, but in the world where I have a vote, that's what I would propose.

You can't use first touching spot because acceptance of a live ball foul cancels first touching.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 26, 2019, 09:40:48 AM
You can't use first touching spot because acceptance of a live ball foul cancels first touching.

This is actually no longer universally true because of the 10-4-2 exception. If K commits a foul during a punt play, then downs the punt, R has the option to enforce the foul from the spot of first touching (the succeeding spot).

That being said, I might amend my wording slightly, and might have to think about exactly how to do it. I would want to preserve the rationale behind the rule you said. I wouldn't want K to commit first touching of a punt, R picks up the ball, runs downfield, fumbles and K recovers.... R can take the ball at the spot of first touching, but any during-the-kick fouls should be declined at that point.

However, this is creating loopholes and subclauses...
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 26, 2019, 03:41:50 PM
This is actually no longer universally true because of the 10-4-2 exception. If K commits a foul during a punt play, then downs the punt, R has the option to enforce the foul from the spot of first touching (the succeeding spot).

If you down the punt, that's not really first touching.  I mean, it is technically, but it's also the end of the kick.  So it's meaningless.  You tack on from the end of the play.  You're not enforcing from the first touching spot, you're enforcing from the end of the play.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on February 26, 2019, 05:28:14 PM
This is actually no longer universally true because of the 10-4-2 exception. If K commits a foul during a punt play, then downs the punt, R has the option to enforce the foul from the spot of first touching (the succeeding spot).

That being said, I might amend my wording slightly, and might have to think about exactly how to do it. I would want to preserve the rationale behind the rule you said. I wouldn't want K to commit first touching of a punt, R picks up the ball, runs downfield, fumbles and K recovers.... R can take the ball at the spot of first touching, but any during-the-kick fouls should be declined at that point.

However, this is creating loopholes and subclauses...
I think you are trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. bossman is right about the exception. It's not being enforced there because it's the spot of first of first touching. It's being enforced there because it's the end of the kick. Fouls by K that would have previously been required to be enforced from the previous spot now have the option of previous spot or where R next snaps the ball. That may be an over simplification but that's ultimately the intent of the rule. If K scored on that play previously they would have declined the foul. If they had a long return they also might have declined it, but now they can tack it on the end of the run. If R lost possession and K recovered they would have accepted the penalty at the previous spot because it would be to their advantage. That would still be true.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 27, 2019, 08:42:06 AM
If you down the punt, that's not really first touching.  I mean, it is technically, but it's also the end of the kick.  So it's meaningless.  You tack on from the end of the play.  You're not enforcing from the first touching spot, you're enforcing from the end of the play.

In that scenario, R never has possession of the ball before it is dead. R is only awarded the ball because of the first touching. Yes, we're nitpicking rule word choice, but in general we can't say "Yes, the rule explicitly says X, but we all know it means Y"

Quote
Rule 6-2-5: The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is cancelled [...] if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down

If we enforce the penalty (a live ball foul), then the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching, where K gains possession and the down ends, is cancelled. K had possession of the ball at the end of down, which means that without any other influence, they would be the next to put the ball in play and the tack-on exception is void. The only remaining enforcement spot is the previous spot because of the loose ball play.

Or

We acknowledge the logic of the situation and how we've all been enforcing it last year, and state that 10-4-2 also makes an exception to the cancellation of first touching in 6-2-5 and we *can* enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot AND award the ball to R due to the first touching.

My main point is that "It is, but it isn't, but you know what I mean!" isn't exactly a strong argument to make to a coach in any situation.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on February 27, 2019, 09:48:45 AM
Quote
If we enforce the penalty (a live ball foul), then the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching, where K gains possession and the down ends, is cancelled. K had possession of the ball at the end of down, which means that without any other influence, they would be the next to put the ball in play and the tack-on exception is void. The only remaining enforcement spot is the previous spot because of the loose ball play.

If your logic is true, then we would never have PSK when K downs the ball.  Acceptance of an R foul would cancel first touching and make the previous spot the only enforcement option.

I think we're all more or less on the same page.  I just don't think you can say that you can enforce tack on fouls from first touching spot, because that would let officials think that we could enforce from actual bean bag touches, which we can't do.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 27, 2019, 11:50:09 AM
When you are sitting around waiting for something to happen that hasn't yet, you may....

(1) Read the sports page (done it).
(2) Read the obits to see if you are still alive (done it).
(3) Watch a sports show (Ole' Dell can't do it).
(4) See how the responses to this topic compares to those of the past.... You may (not) find my following facts interesting...or not. :) :o ??? ::)

This is post #114 of this topic. The following topics have exceeded this:

2-22-2017     "the new rules are here"     132 posts
4-4-2016         "     "      "      "     "         148 posts

The first recorded topic was on 8-26-2010...Bugolathe was the author and LarryW60 was the last responder.
The topic had something to do about holding (I think) I don't think there were many responses.

 :puke: If I find anymore useless knowledge before my scheduled client arrives, I'll let you know!   :puke:


Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on February 28, 2019, 08:58:06 AM
Are you trying to suggest there's something else to do in the off season than pour over every word in the rule book?

That's just crazy talk!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 08, 2019, 10:00:46 AM
This afternoon is our annual gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards or whatever. I present the new rules to our fellow officials at our favorite facility (watering hole). I expect a multitude of gripes and groans on the passing of the 40" clock. I expect that  somehow we will make it work. Another round sometimes changes the gripes  >:( and groans  :( to grins  ;D and naughty  >:D thoughts about the waitress  >:D. Football isn't back on the field but is getting back in the mind  8] .

Do any of you guys have similar sessions  ??? ?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: prab on March 08, 2019, 10:11:24 AM
We never gripe, moan or groan about rule changes.  We accept with blind faith that the rule makers are all knowing, all wise and all powerful.  We accept that they know what is best for the game even when we are not knowing enough or wise enough to see it immediately.  After the second or third round at the watering hole, we appreciate them even more!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ncwingman on March 09, 2019, 02:59:30 PM
This afternoon is our annual gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards or whatever. I present the new rules to our fellow officials at our favorite facility (watering hole). I expect a multitude of gripes and groans on the passing of the 40" clock. I expect that  somehow we will make it work. Another round sometimes changes the gripes  >:( and groans  :( to grins  ;D and naughty  >:D thoughts about the waitress  >:D. Football isn't back on the field but is getting back in the mind  8] .

Do any of you guys have similar sessions  ??? ?

We don't, but I would also argue that we don't really have the new rules. We have a press release saying what rules have been altered and a rationale for the rule change, but not the actual wording of the new rule. This is even worse for the editorial changes -- for example the 10-4-2c EXCEPTION that we were discussing for many a page earlier. We *assumed* it was the removal of the word "down", but we don't actually know for certain.

Granted, *you* might have actual text of the new rules, but the rest of us do not.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 11, 2019, 10:00:33 AM
We don't, but I would also argue that we don't really have the new rules. We have a press release saying what rules have been altered and a rationale for the rule change, but not the actual wording of the new rule. This is even worse for the editorial changes -- for example the 10-4-2c EXCEPTION that we were discussing for many a page earlier. We *assumed* it was the removal of the word "down", but we don't actually know for certain.

Granted, *you* might have actual text of the new rules, but the rest of us do not.
I have the successful proposals that were voted in which are pretty much covered in the press release . I also had the Illinois version of their 40" experimental rule. The press release + IL rule were discussed. We also discussed such items of interest as the World Series, Super Bowl, and such .  :)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: dieter on March 12, 2019, 12:47:41 PM
I have the successful proposals that were voted in which are pretty much covered in the press release . I also had the Illinois version of their 40" experimental rule. The press release + IL rule were discussed. We also discussed such items of interest as the World Series, Super Bowl, and such .  :)

Wasn't Illinois unless our NFHS rep proposed some version of the rule. We have never experimented with anything in Illinois. We are mostly a by-the-book state.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 12, 2019, 01:00:09 PM
Wasn't Illinois unless our NFHS rep proposed some version of the rule. We have never experimented with anything in Illinois. We are mostly a by-the-book state.

My bad, ISHSAA is Indiana  pi1eOn.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 12, 2019, 04:20:30 PM
My bad, ISHSAA is Indiana  pi1eOn.
One too many Ss in there...IHSAA. Illinois is IHSA. I heard the CO mechanic is the one adopted which is good. Our commissioner had us signal both stop clock or incomplete pass and then the dead ball signal if applicable. This made us look like we were doing the macarena and was ridiculous. I'm really hoping he follows the fed mechanic. He's always adamant that we follow the fed mechanic on everything else (to a fault) so hopefully he doesn't change his message here. He doesn't feel the clock operators will know that all 3 signals can start the 40. He's never officiated though so a lot nuances of officiating are beyond him.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 13, 2019, 07:43:14 AM
One too many Ss in there...IHSAA. Illinois is IHSA. I heard the CO mechanic is the one adopted which is good. Our commissioner had us signal both stop clock or incomplete pass and then the dead ball signal if applicable. This made us look like we were doing the macarena and was ridiculous. I'm really hoping he follows the fed mechanic. He's always adamant that we follow the fed mechanic on everything else (to a fault) so hopefully he doesn't change his message here. He doesn't feel the clock operators will know that all 3 signals can start the 40. He's never officiated though so a lot nuances of officiating are beyond him.
I chose Indiana's as it stated that it shouldn't be used in sub-varsity unless you had a 5-man crew. In Maine , all sub-varsity games are with 3-man crews with R & 2 wings. R often spots the ball. Spotting the ball and getting out of town before the snap is beyond their paygrade . In Maine, we currently have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. I'm told that, with our new rule, we will have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. This brought up a question that I didn't have an answer for but felt you might :

 Incomplete pass sails into puckerbrush.
40" clock starts by BJ with his spiffy retrofitted Readyref.
Ball boy has fallen in love with head cheerleader.
Wing digs ball out of puckerbrush.
Ball isn't spotted until after 20" has elapsed.
The big boys (NCAA) would reset to 25" play clock.
Without a play clock, without game clock running, and even with our spiffy retrofitted Readyref...HOW WOULD WE KNOW  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-MAN CREW)

HELP....... 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 13, 2019, 08:23:44 AM
If you're handicapped with a readyref, then you just have to take an educated guess.

If you have a watch, it's no problem.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: JasonTX on March 13, 2019, 11:02:10 AM
If you're handicapped with a readyref, then you just have to take an educated guess.

If you have a watch, it's no problem.

I'm surprised ready ref hasn't added a warning feature for the 20 or 25 second warning depending on rule code.  It already gives you a 10 second warning followed by the 5 second count down. 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 13, 2019, 12:24:42 PM
I'm surprised ready ref hasn't added a warning feature for the 20 or 25 second warning depending on rule code.  It already gives you a 10 second warning followed by the 5 second count down.
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit. Without any play clocks and the game clock off caused concern. I'm speaking at a coaches clinic this Friday and don't plan to bring this administrative reset up. Hopefully we will have this solved , and have a BJ demo , before the pre-season meetings that include both officials and coaches.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Kalle on March 13, 2019, 01:06:42 PM
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit. Without any play clocks and the game clock off caused concern. I'm speaking at a coaches clinic this Friday and don't plan to bring this administrative reset up. Hopefully we will have this solved , and have a BJ demo , before the pre-season meetings that include both officials and coaches.

Like Bossman said, ReadyRef is suboptimal for games without a visible play clock. With a wrist watch play clock (Casio and whatnot where you can have almost any number of alerts during the 40s time) it has been a nonissue for me, and I'm willing to be that most of my games are in worse conditions than in Maine.

My Casio has been set up to do 15-10-15 second intervals, so if I get the first vibration before the ball is spotted, I can pump the play clock back to 25, and a bit after the second warning I can either raise my hand (if BJ) or yell "10 seconds" (if R). If it is a 25 second play clock, I'll do that at the first vibration.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on March 13, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
I noticed on the ready ref site they off a lacrosse model with a :20 alarm. Does anybody know if that particular setting has a :05 warning buzz? If so it could be used to signal the CO to start the :25, giving teams an idea of the last :25 countdown on the :40. Assuming of course you are at a school with a :25 clock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 13, 2019, 01:34:22 PM
I chose Indiana's as it stated that it shouldn't be used in sub-varsity unless you had a 5-man crew. In Maine , all sub-varsity games are with 3-man crews with R & 2 wings. R often spots the ball. Spotting the ball and getting out of town before the snap is beyond their paygrade . In Maine, we currently have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. I'm told that, with our new rule, we will have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. This brought up a question that I didn't have an answer for but felt you might :

 Incomplete pass sails into puckerbrush.
40" clock starts by BJ with his spiffy retrofitted Readyref.
Ball boy has fallen in love with head cheerleader.
Wing digs ball out of puckerbrush.
Ball isn't spotted until after 20" has elapsed.
The big boys (NCAA) would reset to 25" play clock.
Without a play clock, without game clock running, and even with our spiffy retrofitted Readyref...HOW WOULD WE KNOW  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-MAN CREW)

HELP....... 
First of all, I STRONGLY recommend disposing of the archaic mechanic of not allowing the officials to get a new ball from the sideline. That will avoid this issue entirely. In nearly 20 years of high school officiating I have never been stuck with using only one ball for an entire series if we requested a new ball.

But if you are going to do that, the B will know if the play clock is below 20. He'll blow his whistle and give a one-handed fist bump to indicate the play clock needs to be reset. The R will acknowledge and blow the RFP. The B will start the 25 second clock on his watch. However, if the offense is ready to go and will likely snap the ball in the next 10 seconds don't worry about it. If they take a little longer than the original 40 seconds be very liberal with your flag. You have a lot more flexibility in those situations without a play clock so you have a benefit. Those of us with visible play clocks have to be much more technical.

In 3 years of experiment 40 second clock I think we may have reset the play clock to 40 because it took long no more than 3 times. It's pretty rare to even be under 25 if you have good ball mechanics and OK ball boys.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: HLinNC on March 13, 2019, 09:01:29 PM
Quote
First of all, I STRONGLY recommend disposing of the archaic mechanic of not allowing the officials to get a new ball from the sideline. That will avoid this issue entirely.

I don't think too many of us have that issue.  It is as Ralph says, things beyond our control- long pass lands beyond the track you have and  8 year old ballboy, a teen ballboy oggling the cheerleaders, two different ballboys fire balls out when you call for one.  Most ballboys here look at me like I've got 3 heads when I ask before the game if they have a towel. 

As I said previously, for those of you who work areas that have ballboys straight from the University of Alabama, bully for you.  For most of us, that luxury doesn't exist.  There's going to need to be some adjusting.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 13, 2019, 10:55:32 PM
I don't think too many of us have that issue.  It is as Ralph says, things beyond our control- long pass lands beyond the track you have and  8 year old ballboy, a teen ballboy oggling the cheerleaders, two different ballboys fire balls out when you call for one.  Most ballboys here look at me like I've got 3 heads when I ask before the game if they have a towel. 

As I said previously, for those of you who work areas that have ballboys straight from the University of Alabama, bully for you.  For most of us, that luxury doesn't exist.  There's going to need to be some adjusting.


We have kids as our balls almost every game and many of them are far from professional. If you do a little coaching/reminding before each game and work with them during the game, they usually don't cause too many issues.

I go back to the argument I've heard for the need to not need the 40-second play clock. It was a solution looking for a problem. If getting the ball set within 15-18 seconds is a problem today then you aren't as consistent as you say you are. If you aren't that consistent then that's the problem. If some plays allow a team to burn 50-60 seconds because you can't get a ball and some are only 35 seconds because it was a short run up the middle, that's a bad consistency. If you watch a live stream of your crew with a 25-second clock you will find out even a very good crew probably varies 5-10 seconds on most plays. That doesn't include the outliers of a ball that disappears.

Either you were already very consistent and this will not be much of a transition at all or you weren't consistent and you need this rule more than you realize.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 14, 2019, 07:28:39 AM
When you are sitting around waiting for something to happen that hasn't yet, you may....

(1) Read the sports page (done it).
(2) Read the obits to see if you are still alive (done it).
(3) Watch a sports show (Ole' Dell can't do it).
(4) See how the responses to this topic compares to those of the past.... You may (not) find my following facts interesting...or not. :) :o ??? ::)

This is post #114 of this topic. The following topics have exceeded this:

2-22-2017     "the new rules are here"     132 posts
4-4-2016         "     "      "      "     "         148 posts

The first recorded topic was on 8-26-2010...Bugolathe was the author and LarryW60 was the last responder.
The topic had something to do about holding (I think) I don't think there were many responses.

 :puke: If I find anymore useless knowledge before my scheduled client arrives, I'll let you know!   :puke:

This post brings this topic into a tie for 2nd place for the "HOTTEST TOPIC AWARD" with 17 more needed for  aWaRd . I figured our new rules would  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: yEs: (5 man crew)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 14, 2019, 08:57:30 AM
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit.

Maybe this will help (see attached).  I have not personally confirmed this works, but someone else said it does.

(https://i.ibb.co/xjZsWMM/Ready-Ref-change-for-40-second-play-clock.jpg)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 14, 2019, 09:05:08 AM
Thanks, Bossman, fiddling with new fangled gadgets is way beyond my paygrade  :) but I'll pass it on to those that are so inclined. As a white hat that has requested not to work any 4-man crews, I'll be relying that the back judge will be ready to roll.

t
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 14, 2019, 11:42:46 AM
Tomorrow night I address the coaches at their Spring clinic. I'm sure a  portion of the meeting will be regarding the 40" clock and will be as ready as I can for that. An even hotter topic will be Maine's decision to have an 8-man football division. The 10 schools involved will be allowed to :

(1) Continue to use 300' X 160' field (all 10 have them;

(2) Modify to 240' X 120' field (none have 'em - no new schools, only schools dropping to 8);

(3) Keep @ 240' but reducing to 120' wide.

Any opinions from you 6-8-9 football guys regarding the size of fields and other aspects that may arise ????? Moving sidelines sounds much easier then moving end zones...ie...moving goal posts. I believe the schools involved all aspire to return to 11 some day.

                                                     
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on March 14, 2019, 12:43:40 PM
There are a few 8-man teams in my neck of the woods. They all play on a regular field.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: HLinNC on March 14, 2019, 07:25:59 PM
The only 8 man FB I ever worked was at our state school for the deaf and we played on regular field.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 15, 2019, 08:14:39 AM
Tomorrow night I address the coaches at their Spring clinic. I'm sure a  portion of the meeting will be regarding the 40" clock and will be as ready as I can for that. An even hotter topic will be Maine's decision to have an 8-man football division. The 10 schools involved will be allowed to :

(1) Continue to use 300' X 160' field (all 10 have them;

(2) Modify to 240' X 120' field (none have 'em - no new schools, only schools dropping to 8);

(3) Keep @ 240' but reducing to 120' wide.

Any opinions from you 6-8-9 football guys regarding the size of fields and other aspects that may arise ????? Moving sidelines sounds much easier then moving end zones...ie...moving goal posts. I believe the schools involved all aspire to return to 11 some day.                                                     
The key thing you'll hear from them is about how they want the officials and chain crew to move quickly because they plan to snap the ball at 35 seconds. Trust me it won't happen. I've been through this twice now both in NCAA and our experimental state. They may be able to go a little bit faster sometimes but almost every snap will still be under 25 seconds and most will be under 20. And they will only go as fast as you allow them. You still control when it's ready for play to ensure all the officials are in place.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: KWH on March 15, 2019, 02:13:24 PM

For clarification of what Magician just said...
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 16, 2019, 07:21:52 PM
For clarification of what Magician just said...
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!
We still make sure one or the other is set, but it really doesn't take that long. I can't remember very many times that's why I delayed stepping away from the ball. Maybe a couple times per game at most. You wouldn't blow the RFP until one or the other was set previously so this is not much different. If they are delayed enough causing the play clock to run below 20 (or enough to put the offense at a disadvantage to be able to snap the ball) you can always reset it to 25 and try again. Most of the time one of them is there and ready to go within a couple seconds of the umpire placing the ball.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: KWH on March 17, 2019, 12:14:20 PM
We still make sure one or the other is set, but it really doesn't take that long. I can't remember very many times that's why I delayed stepping away from the ball. Maybe a couple times per game at most. You wouldn't blow the RFP until one or the other was set previously so this is not much different. If they are delayed enough causing the play clock to run below 20 (or enough to put the offense at a disadvantage to be able to snap the ball) you can always reset it to 25 and try again. Most of the time one of them is there and ready to go within a couple seconds of the umpire placing the ball.

With all do respect Brian, we have some "issues" to resolve with some chain crews intentionally holding up the game, thus, "We" will NOT be waiting to "...make sure one of the other is set..."
Don't get me wrong, there will be some common sense inserted here (eg; 90 yard pass play, ect.) However, the days of the chain crew crawling to their position as (unofficially) instructed by the Home Head Coach officially ended with the insertion of the 40 second clock! In the extremely unlikely event they are not set when the snap is imminent, the H simply drops his bean bag, and the chain crew sets up on the bean bag.
As one example, for the last several years, under the 25 second clock, my crews have been informing the chain crew this is the mechanic.  While many may consider it a miracle, but the chains crews gain some superhuman speed, AND the most important part, in 4 years time, my H, has yet to drop his bean bag for them, NOT EVEN ONCE!
You gotta work with them, you gotta be professional, you gotta respect them, but they gotta put out a little effort now and then.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 18, 2019, 07:44:20 AM
The coaches had their Spring Clinic this past Friday and I presented the new rules. There are three sessions running concurrently and usually the rules session is the lowest attended. NOT TONIGHT--the room was packed. There was little care for the jersey restrictions in 4 years or IB & IK penalties reducing to 10 yards BUT there was much debate regarding the 40" clock. I tried to explain that this is a learning curve for us, too. I gave an analogy of a full-time substitute teacher that I once officiated with. When I asked how he could teach freshman math one day, senior history and next and sophomore science the third, he responded :

"I try to act like I know what I'm doing. I stay one chapter ahead of the students. They then think I know what I'm doing !"

I asked : "We will do our best to learn the system and get the kinks out, will you accept that  ??? ? "

They responded : " YES  yEs: ! "

I then asked : " Would have have your booster's club have continuous bake sale and raise several thousand $$$ for visible play clocks   :P ? "

They responded : " NO ! "

.......the meeting then ended...the bar then opened... tR:oLl
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bbeagle on March 18, 2019, 08:08:40 AM
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!

So, why are we stopping the clock when a first down is gained? Just for show?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 18, 2019, 08:18:40 AM
So, why are we stopping the clock when a first down is gained? Just for show?

It is required under 3-5-7b (official's TO) . To remove it would require a rule change. 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bbeagle on March 18, 2019, 09:22:28 AM
It is required under 3-5-7b (official's TO) . To remove it would require a rule change.

That's not what I meant by my comment.

Yes, we are required to stop the clock on a first down. The reason behind this is to allow time to set the chains.

If we are going to ignore the reason for 3-5-7b by just starting the clock when the ball is spotted, then you're basically ignoring the reason for rule 3-5-7b.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 18, 2019, 09:45:36 AM
That's not what I meant by my comment.

Yes, we are required to stop the clock on a first down. The reason behind this is to allow time to set the chains.

If we are going to ignore the reason for 3-5-7b by just starting the clock when the ball is spotted, then you're basically ignoring the reason for rule 3-5-7b.

One benefit of the 40-second play clock is you'll be able to start the game clock again before the ball is ready for play. It's a silent wind of the game clock. The standard mechanic for us has been with 32-25 seconds remaining on the play clock unless time in the half if a factor. The NCAA philosophy is even quicker (35-37 seconds).
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 18, 2019, 10:00:34 AM
The coaches had their Spring Clinic this past Friday and I presented the new rules. There are three sessions running concurrently and usually the rules session is the lowest attended. NOT TONIGHT--the room was packed. There was little care for the jersey restrictions in 4 years or IB & IK penalties reducing to 10 yards BUT there was much debate regarding the 40" clock. I tried to explain that this is a learning curve for us, too. I gave an analogy of a full-time substitute teacher that I once officiated with. When I asked how he could teach freshman math one day, senior history and next and sophomore science the third, he responded :

"I try to act like I know what I'm doing. I stay one chapter ahead of the students. They then think I know what I'm doing !"

I asked : "We will do our best to learn the system and get the kinks out, will you accept that  ??? ? "

They responded : " YES  yEs: ! "

I then asked : " Would have have your booster's club have continuous bake sale and raise several thousand $$$ for visible play clocks   :P ? "

They responded : " NO ! "

.......the meeting then ended...the bar then opened... tR:oLl

I'm not sure if our wings ever use the bean bag mechanic, but I've heard that as a possibility. There aren't that many plays in a HS season that go so far the box guy or chain crew can't get there in a reasonable amount of time for the umpire to leave his spot over the ball and make the ball ready for play. Again, if you had issues with this previously then you were likely very inconsistent in the amount of time given to teams from play to play and game to game. What the 40-second play clock provides is that consistency. But it's flexible enough you can deal with delays if they exist. If they become persistent problems you need to address it just like you would if you had issues with clock operators, ball personnel, security, etc. They aren't all perfect but if you work together they usually don't create too many delays. If you have that rare 90-yard play and everyone isn't down there and ready before the play clock hit about 20 then reset it to 25, let the officiating crew (including chains) get ready and wind it.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: JasonTX on March 18, 2019, 10:34:09 AM
At some of our schools they will use two down boxes.  One on each side.  The one on the home side will stay put at the previous spot.  The visitors side box man will take off as soon as the ball is dead.  Once the dust settles the home side box moves to get lined up.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 18, 2019, 11:42:37 AM
 tiphat: HATS OFF TO JasonTX, while he wandered off the ranch to add a suggestion, HE moved this topic into "rare air"  tiphat:

His post was the 149th on this topic which exceeded the previous longest of 148 on April 4, 2016. That topic also dealt with new rules. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys, from a rule perspective, I can only compare this with 1981. That year, both coaches and officials were all in a tizzy with the birth of the free blocking zone. IMHO, the 40" clock will impact we officials much more than the coaches. It's our new rule and we WILL MAKE IT WORK.

Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 18, 2019, 12:04:52 PM
tiphat: HATS OFF TO JasonTX, while he wandered off the ranch to add a suggestion, HE moved this topic into "rare air"  tiphat:

His post was the 149th on this topic which exceeded the previous longest of 148 on April 4, 2016. That topic also dealt with new rules. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys, from a rule perspective, I can only compare this with 1981. That year, both coaches and officials were all in a tizzy with the birth of the free blocking zone. IMHO, the 40" clock will impact we officials much more than the coaches. It's our new rule and we WILL MAKE IT WORK.

I have been through rolling out the 40-second clock twice now, first in NCAA and then as an experimental state. The items you have mentioned were all concerns in both instances before they were started but neither became issues once we were rolling. Everyone realized, "hey this is easier." But there will be anxiety and plans by teams to go as fast as they can. They'll realize pretty quickly you can't get a play called and run as fast as you thought you could.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: sir55 on March 19, 2019, 01:17:04 PM
Do you have any additional information on the POE dealing with the expanded neutral zone? What was the problem and what is the suggested fix?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 19, 2019, 02:39:26 PM
Do you have any additional information on the POE dealing with the expanded neutral zone? What was the problem and what is the suggested fix?

I know one point of confusion was do you expand the NZ for Offensive linemen going down field?  Do they get 2 yards to roam, or does that just apply when they engage someone at the LOS?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on March 20, 2019, 07:11:34 AM
Are we not stopping the clock so we can set the chains?  Also, I thought the :40 clock was implemented to give consistency between play, not to speed up the snap interval?

If thatís the case, thereís no harm or foul in waiting for the chains to be set.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 20, 2019, 07:26:12 AM
I know one point of confusion was do you expand the NZ for Offensive linemen going down field?  Do they get 2 yards to roam, or does that just apply when they engage someone at the LOS?
I think Bossman has the basics of it. There was a discussion around the expanded NZ being for only A/K linesmen driving B/R linesman back and not a roaming ground for big ole' Bubba,

Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 20, 2019, 07:34:06 AM
I'm assembling, by chronology, my top ten list of : "OH NO, THE SKY IS FALLING " rule changes that I'm seen occur since my start with NFHS in 1971. I'm sure each one of you has some, so let's share. As Chicken Little found out, the sky didn't fall (game didn't crumble) and play moved on after many changes that we felt would ruin it.

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (7-man crew)
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ElvisLives on March 20, 2019, 07:54:20 AM
Are we not stopping the clock so we can set the chains?  Also, I thought the :40 clock was implemented to give consistency between play, not to speed up the snap interval?

If thatís the case, thereís no harm or foul in waiting for the chains to be set.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Speaking from experience from the NCAA side of things, when the 40-second clock was introduced - yes, for the primary purpose of gaining greater consistency in getting the ball declared ready for play - the side effect was that, suddenly, teams knew that, officially, because the play clock was running, they could snap the ball the moment the ball was placed on the ground.  Teams saw that they could develop a really high-paced offense, and that's exactly what happened.  I know that we weren't waiting on the chains, at all - not necessarily even the box man.  But we started getting more mobile box men that could get to the succeeding spot before the next snap, so it wasn't really a big problem.  The chains could get there soon enough afterward and get set off the box man.  Yes, it has tended to breed a bit more youthful and mobile chain crews, which is what you will need to address with your member institutions.   
Advance a couple of years, and, due to issues with substitution, officials were directed to stay on the ball to prevent the snap, if A was making subs (to give B the chance to match up), which happens very frequently at the FBS level, but not nearly so much for HS.  That helps to provide additional time to get the box and chains set.  And note that, as long as an official is holding the snap, officially, the ball is not ready for play.

Of course, do what your governing body tells you to do.  But, with the 40-second clock beginning automatically, teams have an expectation of being able to snap the ball quickly, and run high-paced offenses, which means the chain crews are going to have get much better.

Another thing.  If you haven't been used to raising a hand to signify "dead ball" at the end of a down, you will have to get some practice at that before your first real games.  In the absence of a time-out signal (for out of bounds, or to award a news series to Team A), an incomplete pass signal, or a score signal, that is what signals the PCO to start the 40-second clock for the next down.

It will be OK.  In a few years, you won't miss the previous process.

Robert
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on March 21, 2019, 07:32:09 AM
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Dropping beanbags to spot the box?  Who retrieves them?  How many will H need to carry??

Finding more ďyouthful and mobileĒ chain crews?  Good luck with that!  We have some games where home management has to beg to even get three ó and on occasion a visiting parent has to fill in.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 21, 2019, 08:39:45 AM
Here are some "the sky is following" rule changes that I've seen, and we're still playing football.....

YEAR     RULE#   RULE                                                                      PHOBIA
-----      -------    ------------------------------------------------               --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1972     2-21-1   player OOB if touches goalpost                                 No one will dare to go into end zone.
1976     7-1-1     B/R DB encroachment if in NZ                                  A/K will use this to draw opponents in.
1981     2-2-2     no BBW outside of FBZ                                            BLOCKING SCHEMES RUINED - GAME HAS BECOME 2-HAND TOUCH.
1982     2-5        coach can go to huddle on TO                                  He'll only want to argue, not coach.
1982     2-17-2   # exceptions report to U                                          Not a good idea (it changed next year).
1989     1-5-3n   no knots on jerseys                                                 How will we ever see that?
1992     6-1-9b   KO OOB has choice of 25 yd. award                          Everyone wants to see a kickoff return.
1995     7-5-2d   Spike to ball to stop the clock                                   Allowing QB to cheat will ruin game.
1996     3-4-3b   Clock on snap after COP                                           Games will last forever.
2003     2-16-2g PSK                                                                        Too complex, officials will never be able to handle.
2004     2-6-2a   no # limit to sideline huddle                                     Crowd to big for one official to handle.
             3-5-2a  head coach can call TO                                            How will we be able to see/identify him?
2009     2-14-2  new definition of scrimmage kick formation                 Too complex, we can't keep track.
2011     2-6-1    teams to sidelines during injuries                                Subs & coaches may push for revenge.
2013     1-6       communication devices expanded                               Rich schools have 'em, poor schools won't.
            7-5-10  LOD @ AFD gone from PI                                           Coaches will use this on goal to go.
2014     2-20-2  Targeting added                                                        How can we tell intent?
            6-1-3b  free kick formation requirements                                 How are ever going to tell?
2017    2-24-10 pop-up kick outlawed                                                   "      "     "       "      "   "
2019                 40' clock                                                                   WE WILL ADJUST !!!

SPECIAL MENTION : 1976...9-5-5  Prohibits a member of the passing team to bat a backward pass forward. In 1975 ,U-Maine used this as a trick play to beat arch-rival UNH. It received national acclaim and was outlawed the following year by NCAA & NFHS.

Those are mine, guys, let's hear yours and your opinions of mine.....

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:           
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: JasonTX on March 21, 2019, 01:40:18 PM
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Dropping beanbags to spot the box?  Who retrieves them?  How many will H need to carry??

Finding more ďyouthful and mobileĒ chain crews?  Good luck with that!  We have some games where home management has to beg to even get three ó and on occasion a visiting parent has to fill in.

The box guy will pick it up and give to the H when he gets there.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 21, 2019, 02:37:59 PM
SPECIAL MENTION : 1976...9-5-5  Prohibits a member of the passing team to bat a backward pass forward. In 1975 ,U-Maine used this as a trick play to beat arch-rival UNH. It received national acclaim and was outlawed the following year by NCAA & NFHS.     

You'll have to explain this play, as I'm having trouble visualizing or seeing how this could be "tricky".
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: KWH on March 21, 2019, 03:50:17 PM
You'll have to explain this play, as I'm having trouble visualizing or seeing how this could be "tricky".


4th Period 0:03 on clock
U-Maine trails be 2
U-Maine ball 4th and goal on the B5 yard line.
U-Maine uses its last timeout and brings in the Field Goal Team
U-Maine snapper snaps the ball directly to the kicker who bats the "backward pass" forward,
and the ball flutters like a wounded duck into the endzone.
The Gun operator fires his BLANK into the air.
The UNH players jump in the air for joy thinking they just won the game, when.....

...wait....

The U-Maine snapper falls on the ball in the endzone??? 

 The officials gather, put their heads together and ^good - Touchdown! - Game over!
Maine Blackbears win - Maine Blackbears win - Maine Blackbears win

NCAA adds rule 9-4-2
NFHS adds rule 9-7-3

...and now you know the rest of the story...
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: KWH on March 21, 2019, 03:53:12 PM
Ralph -

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe the snapper left the field in the arms of the Prom Queen???
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on March 22, 2019, 07:44:52 AM
We were right about the 1996 clock change, although itís only part of the reason games now last up to three hours.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on March 22, 2019, 08:27:25 AM
Speaking from experience from the NCAA side of things, when the 40-second clock was introduced - yes, for the primary purpose of gaining greater consistency in getting the ball declared ready for play - the side effect was that, suddenly, teams knew that, officially, because the play clock was running, they could snap the ball the moment the ball was placed on the ground.  Teams saw that they could develop a really high-paced offense, and that's exactly what happened.  I know that we weren't waiting on the chains, at all - not necessarily even the box man.  But we started getting more mobile box men that could get to the succeeding spot before the next snap, so it wasn't really a big problem.  The chains could get there soon enough afterward and get set off the box man.  Yes, it has tended to breed a bit more youthful and mobile chain crews, which is what you will need to address with your member institutions.   
Advance a couple of years, and, due to issues with substitution, officials were directed to stay on the ball to prevent the snap, if A was making subs (to give B the chance to match up), which happens very frequently at the FBS level, but not nearly so much for HS.  That helps to provide additional time to get the box and chains set.  And note that, as long as an official is holding the snap, officially, the ball is not ready for play.

Of course, do what your governing body tells you to do.  But, with the 40-second clock beginning automatically, teams have an expectation of being able to snap the ball quickly, and run high-paced offenses, which means the chain crews are going to have get much better.

Another thing.  If you haven't been used to raising a hand to signify "dead ball" at the end of a down, you will have to get some practice at that before your first real games.  In the absence of a time-out signal (for out of bounds, or to award a news series to Team A), an incomplete pass signal, or a score signal, that is what signals the PCO to start the 40-second clock for the next down.

It will be OK.  In a few years, you won't miss the previous process.

Robert
The ball is not ready the instance the umpire/CJ puts the ball down. He/she still has to wait for the U/C to step away. We still control pace. If our officials (which includes the chain crew) is not in position the U/C doesn't step away. I remember my first game I was stepping away immediately and my wings screamed at me to make sure they were in position. We slowed it down in the second half. They were still able to snap at 25-30 on many plays, but I was stepping away at 34-36 in some cases.

We didn't find the chain crews needed to be significantly more mobile in NFHS but we went at a fairly consistent pace before. If a crew was VERY lenient with the chain crews and waited 20-30 seconds for the chain crew to saunter down, this will be a change. But they are one of the key reasons this change probably came about. Massive inconsistency with dead ball time from play to play affects the flow of the game and the rhythm the teams try to be in from a timing standpoint.

I would say it will be OK in a week or two for most crews. We have a lot of bad crews in our state and they were fine (at least no worse than they were before).
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 22, 2019, 08:34:53 AM
You'll have to explain this play, as I'm having trouble visualizing or seeing how this could be "tricky".
KWH was on the right track, but being at the game, here was my murky memory :

Homecoming vs UNH with the winner receiving the Brice Memorial Musket (said to have been used by some guy named Brice in the War of 1812). It was pouring rain (and beer in the frat houses). No score, 4th qtr., Maine with 4th down on UNH's 20, when....

(1) Maine lined up for a field goal;
(2) Maine's kicker was a better volleyball player;
(3) holder took snap and lobbed ball into air- a backward pass;
(4) kicker batted backward pass toward end zone;
(5) lone UNH player felt it was a lousy kick;
(6) Maine TE knew that it wasn't;
(7) he scooped up ball and waded into end zone;
 ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (only 5-man crew then);
(8) our section all leaped up - some fell -alcohol may have been a contributing factor;
(9) our kicker missed the PAT - remember he was better at volleyball;
(10) final score = 6-0, Brice musket stays in Maine;
(11) frat house bars stayed open longer;
(12) homecoming queen- remember, this is college - and kicker/volleyball player could not be found.

This made  NFL Highlights the next day, it also made new rule proposals for both NCAA & NFHS shortly thereafter.

.....and now you really know the rest of the story... aWaRd
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 22, 2019, 08:43:34 AM
We were right about the 1996 clock change, although itís only part of the reason games now last up to three hours.
For several years after this was a major gripe at the rules meeting. A study showed :

(1) With expansion of passing game = more passes = more incomplete passes = more dead time;

(2) Higher scores = TD = dead time = PAT = dead time to KO = ave. 4:20 dead time between scores;

(3) Snap on COP = 10:00 per game - remember, inc. pass, OOB & FC on turnovers were snap clocks, anyway.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: KWH on March 22, 2019, 10:12:26 AM

.....and now you really know the rest of the story... aWaRd

...Somehow, Ralph always tells a story better than me.
Maybe its the language barrier...
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: AlUpstateNY on March 22, 2019, 10:19:09 AM
All 3 are reality, but #2 is a real (correctable) problem.  Wasted time between a Try and the subsequent KO has become predictably laughable. 

It seems no matter how many scores happen during a game, somehow a redundant strategy clinic is required to determine how to next put the ball in play.  Even when the same 11 players (from either team) comprise the KO formation, each seems to require detailed, and personal, instructions on where/how to line up and what their function should be.  Despite all the personal reviews, and repetition, somehow "stragglers" are a fairly consistent occurrence.

Unfortunately, that nonsense is on "US", for allowing it to happen.  No telling what difference a consistent DOG requirement might produce, or bad habits it might reduce. The entire officiating crew is lined up in position, the chain crew is patiently waiting on the sideline, waiting for players to enter the field and a subsequent (and prompt) RFP whistle.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 22, 2019, 11:05:29 AM
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Dropping beanbags to spot the box?  Who retrieves them?  How many will H need to carry??

Finding more ďyouthful and mobileĒ chain crews?  Good luck with that!  We have some games where home management has to beg to even get three ó and on occasion a visiting parent has to fill in.

I spoke at the Maine Football Coaches Clinic last weekend. 40" clock was their prime attraction. Regarding the chain crew/ball boys , I said this : "We officials will do our best, BUT it will YOUR responsibility to insure that we have a chain crew that is active and mobile AND ball boys that are attentive to action on the field, not up in the stands. Will you relay this to your game management ?" They agreed. They then gave me a tee-shirt that read : MAINE FOOTBALL COACHES ASSOCIATION. Not sure where to wear it, but it is the color of my penalty flag

 ^flag
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 22, 2019, 11:17:17 AM
All 3 are reality, but #2 is a real (correctable) problem.  Wasted time between a Try and the subsequent KO has become predictably laughable. 

I agree.  I notice that officials aren't keeping the teams on schedule.  They let the teams dictate when they want to go out for the kickoff by being laissez faire with the issue.  We can do a better job of hitting whistles and being "annoying" to get them out on the field and keeping the game on schedule.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 22, 2019, 11:26:00 AM
KWH was on the right track, but being at the game, here was my murky memory :

Homecoming vs UNH with the winner receiving the Brice Memorial Musket (said to have been used by some guy named Brice in the War of 1812). It was pouring rain (and beer in the frat houses). No score, 4th qtr., Maine with 4th down on UNH's 20, when....

(1) Maine lined up for a field goal;
(2) Maine's kicker was a better volleyball player;
(3) holder took snap and lobbed ball into air- a backward pass;
(4) kicker batted backward pass toward end zone;
(5) lone UNH player felt it was a lousy kick;
(6) Maine TE knew that it wasn't;
(7) he scooped up ball and waded into end zone;
 ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (only 5-man crew then);
(8) our section all leaped up - some fell -alcohol may have been a contributing factor;
(9) our kicker missed the PAT - remember he was better at volleyball;
(10) final score = 6-0, Brice musket stays in Maine;
(11) frat house bars stayed open longer;
(12) homecoming queen- remember, this is college - and kicker/volleyball player could not be found.

This made  NFL Highlights the next day, it also made new rule proposals for both NCAA & NFHS shortly thereafter.

.....and now you really know the rest of the story... aWaRd

Fantastic.  I always like to know the "why" behind the rules so that we can understand the rules better.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Curious on March 22, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
Hey Ralph, was there any discussion this year about allowing the passer to spike the ball from the shotgun formation?  What do you think that this adoption will EVER be made?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: AlUpstateNY on March 22, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Hey Ralph, was there any discussion this year about allowing the passer to spike the ball from the shotgun formation?  What do you think that this adoption will EVER be made?

Let's hope NOT.  Doing so would likely seriously reduce the timing clarity ("immediately") of the NFHS 7-5-2-e Exception 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on March 22, 2019, 07:30:59 PM
Let's hope NOT.  Doing so would likely seriously reduce the timing clarity ("immediately") of the NFHS 7-5-2-e Exception 

Only for people without common sense...
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 23, 2019, 11:03:43 AM
Hey Ralph, was there any discussion this year about allowing the passer to spike the ball from the shotgun formation?  What do you think that this adoption will EVER be made?
It once again made it to a floor vote. It once again failed. IMHO, there were three strikes against it :

(1) Gives passer a wider range of vision of possible receivers;
(2) a bad airborne snap could be spiked to prevent sack;
(3) NFL feels the same and restricts a snap under snapper to spike.

When we put 7-5-2d EXP in back in 1995, #1 & 2 was our main concern. It still is. This proposed rule lost some steam a couple of years age when word from NFL came that they had same concerns.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 23, 2019, 11:32:22 AM
Fantastic.  I always like to know the "why" behind the rules so that we can understand the rules better.
 
There have been many rule changes that were prompted by wild occurrences. Here are some from just the past 10 years :

YEAR     RULE     CHANGE AND WHY........
____    ______   __________________________________________________________

2015    5-1-1b    Added authority for R to correct down ONLY during that series - became a big problem in a championship game.
2014    2-24-9    Status of ball unchanged after IK- B player kick airborne forward pass..once grounded was it a fumble?
2010    3-7-1     Replaced player has 3" to leave - some were flagging if he didn't start to move off when incoming sub arrived.
2009    2-14-2   New definition of scrimmage kick....Alpha XI....need I say more ?
2008    3-5-1     Unused TOs gone in OT...2nd OT..K for FG try...R uses 4 unused TOs to spook K...KICK WAS GOOD!

I've many more, if you guys are interested.....

I'M NOW INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE U-MAINE BLACK BEARS AT THE BIG DANCE. AS OUR WOMEN TAKE ON NC STATE tR:oLl

ESPN II @ 1:30 EDT. PREDICTION : Game will be tied at starting jump and will be 0-0 before it starts :P.

Men's Big Dance has 2 states that have never sent a team. Who can name 'em ??? :puke:
   
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: GA Umpire on March 23, 2019, 04:12:03 PM
 
I'M NOW INTERESTED IN WATCHING THE U-MAINE BLACK BEARS AT THE BIG DANCE. AS OUR WOMEN TAKE ON NC STATE tR:oLl

ESPN II @ 1:30 EDT. PREDICTION : Game will be tied at starting jump and will be 0-0 before it starts :P.

Men's Big Dance has 2 states that have never sent a team. Who can name 'em ??? :puke:


Don't go too far out on a limb, Ralph.  Unfortunately, I see they lost.

STATES:
Alaska and Wyoming?  ???
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 24, 2019, 07:44:14 AM
Don't go too far out on a limb, Ralph.  Unfortunately, I see they lost.

STATES:
Alaska and Wyoming?  ???
Half right, GA Ump, Alaska has a good excuse as they don't have any D-I basketball schools !
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Patrick E. on March 24, 2019, 02:48:39 PM
Attached is an initial attempt to outline mechanics for the 40/25 second clock.  Any comments, suggestions, complaints, etc. are appreciated.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: GA Umpire on March 24, 2019, 04:57:26 PM
Half right, GA Ump, Alaska has a good excuse as they don't have any D-I basketball schools !

North Dakota is my final guess.
One should look at this year's brackets before posting.

Ralph, is it your state of Maine?  Have the Black Bears made the men's tourney in the past?

Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 24, 2019, 05:54:00 PM
Attached is an initial attempt to outline mechanics for the 40/25 second clock.  Any comments, suggestions, complaints, etc. are appreciated.
This looks pretty inclusive, although based on past precedent here in MA I believe we'll be having an "exception" for the 40 sec clock and stay with a 25 sec clock that starts on the R's RFP signal.  Should be an interesting year in MA.  Training seminars coming up shortly - we'll see how it goes!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: AlUpstateNY on March 24, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
Only for people without common sense...

I've been surprised, a few times, what it appears "common sense" sounds like from the other side of a sideline.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ilyazhito on March 24, 2019, 10:16:24 PM
Attached is an initial attempt to outline mechanics for the 40/25 second clock.  Any comments, suggestions, complaints, etc. are appreciated.
Patrick, the current rule for a 1st down for A in NCAA (and Texas) play is to reset the play clock to 40 seconds when the ball becomes dead. Only the game clock starts on R's ready-for-play signal. The only times that a 1st down results in the play clock being reset to 25 seconds is when a 1st down is awarded to B or is awarded to either team following a measurement. The chart should read (1st down awarded to B = 25, snap). 1st down awarded to A after a measurement would be covered under measurement (25, ready for play).  Unless NFHS releases a specific directive to the contrary, 1st downs by A in the course of ordinary play, whether inbounds or out-of-bounds, reset the play clock to 40 seconds. The only difference will be in the game clock status.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 25, 2019, 06:58:06 AM
North Dakota is my final guess.
One should look at this year's brackets before posting.

Ralph, is it your state of Maine?  Have the Black Bears made the men's tourney in the past?
You nailed it, GA Ump, the Black bears are the only D-I team in Maine, Maine is the only state that HAS a D-I team that has never gone dancing. While our arch-rival, UNH, hasn't gone either, Dartmouth has gone several times as Ivy League champs.
    aWaRd
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 25, 2019, 07:02:16 AM
This looks pretty inclusive, although based on past precedent here in MA I believe we'll be having an "exception" for the 40 sec clock and stay with a 25 sec clock that starts on the R's RFP signal.  Should be an interesting year in MA.  Training seminars coming up shortly - we'll see how it goes!
IMHO, if a state chooses not to use a NFHS rule (1-7- state's rights excluded) they lose their right to vote at the annual rules committee meeting.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Jackhammer on March 25, 2019, 09:12:20 PM
Tomorrow night I address the coaches at their Spring clinic. I'm sure a  portion of the meeting will be regarding the 40" clock and will be as ready as I can for that. An even hotter topic will be Maine's decision to have an 8-man football division. The 10 schools involved will be allowed to :

(1) Continue to use 300' X 160' field (all 10 have them;

(2) Modify to 240' X 120' field (none have 'em - no new schools, only schools dropping to 8);

(3) Keep @ 240' but reducing to 120' wide.

Any opinions from you 6-8-9 football guys regarding the size of fields and other aspects that may arise ????? Moving sidelines sounds much easier then moving end zones...ie...moving goal posts. I believe the schools involved all aspire to return to 11 some day.

                                                     

DIdn't see any more on this part of the discussion....but goodness gracious you better assign long distance runners with extremely good fitness to work an 8-player game on a regulation 11-player field....

8-player scores in these parts will regularly be 100 point games....they go up and down the field.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on March 26, 2019, 10:20:24 AM
DIdn't see any more on this part of the discussion....but goodness gracious you better assign long distance runners with extremely good fitness to work an 8-player game on a regulation 11-player field....

8-player scores in these parts will regularly be 100 point games....they go up and down the field.
My understanding is that our state association plans to invite all 8-man schools (10) in for a discussion as to field uniformity. Talking to some of the involved coaches, it appears that the majority favor 100 yd. field with 40 yd. wide. It's much easier to move the sidelines than to move the goalposts ! It was felt that the narrow field would help contain the "wide open spaces" and the 100 yards could reduce the high scores. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

We're off to Florida for a few daze and ole' Dell stays put.   tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl Back on April 8th .  tiphat:
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: KWH on March 26, 2019, 02:49:18 PM
Attached is an initial attempt to outline mechanics for the 40/25 second clock.  Any comments, suggestions, complaints, etc. are appreciated.

This is NOT the NFHS version. 
As this is not a print year for the officials manual an official supplement will be issued. 
Likely after the state rules interpreters meeting in July.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on March 27, 2019, 08:51:30 AM
Pardon me again, but this is part of my gripe against the early rollout. Why couldn't we wait until such time as we have all the particulars (casebook plays, mechanics procedures, clarity on the rule language) before implementing a new rule?

I have a Spring game in May. My assigner called the other day and said they wanted to play by the new rule. I'm supposed to be able to show up and explain the new :40 to them and the mechanics won't be out until July. It just seems chaotic to me.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Patrick E. on April 05, 2019, 07:08:01 PM
If anybody has this year's list of potential rule changes and/or editorial changes in electronic format, could you please PM me?  I would like to get a copy.  Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on April 07, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Pardon me again, but this is part of my gripe against the early rollout. Why couldn't we wait until such time as we have all the particulars (casebook plays, mechanics procedures, clarity on the rule language) before implementing a new rule?

I have a Spring game in May. My assigner called the other day and said they wanted to play by the new rule. I'm supposed to be able to show up and explain the new :40 to them and the mechanics won't be out until July. It just seems chaotic to me.

Because the new rules don't apply until next Fall. If someone is asking you to use them now they are being premature. The only thing the rules committee has announced is the rules that will be in effect this fall at a high level. Now is the time they work through all the stuff you are saying. Your assigner needs to understand there are no new rules yet, just approved changes that will be implemented in the rule book for this Fall. You can try to apply based on what you know but it obviously won't be complete. Your issue isn't with the NFHS rules committee but with your assigner.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on April 08, 2019, 06:53:22 AM
Are the hardcopy books (rules & case plays) from 2018 going to be used for 2019 with individual addendums issued for each book for 2019?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on April 08, 2019, 07:02:07 AM
Quote
Your issue isn't with the NFHS rules committee but with your assigner.

Thatís pretty naive, Magician.  Any coach worth his salt is going to want his team to get a jump on new rules instead of waiting until fall practice begins.  Itís up to the officials working those spring games / practices to make sure the coaches know that the rules arenít in final form yet.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on April 08, 2019, 07:20:23 AM
Following our 1st NFHS rules orientation seminar here in MA one question that kept coming up in the post seminar discussion was is there a compiled document of the "rules differences" ordered by rule number available anywhere?  We (here in MA) have always stressed the importance of knowing where in the rules the details reside and believe that a side by side rules differences summary would be very helpful.  So far we've come up with 3 or 4 different documents but none of them are in a rule number format.  We've got some excellent sources from Matt Sumstine (Hawaii) and George Demetriou (Colorado) but we're still looking for anything else out there that could help.  Any other website and downloadable stuff recommendations?
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on April 08, 2019, 01:16:31 PM
Thatís pretty naive, Magician.  Any coach worth his salt is going to want his team to get a jump on new rules instead of waiting until fall practice begins.  Itís up to the officials working those spring games / practices to make sure the coaches know that the rules arenít in final form yet.
I'm assuming by assigner we are talking about another official or retired official. His expectations are going to be different than a coach. The coach can ask all he wants but until the rule changes are finalized and documented we can't expect to enforce them as they'll be implemented in the Fall. If the coach insists I would tell him we'll do the best we can with what we understand about the rule (some are more straight forward than others), but that doesn't mean it will match all the details of how the new rule will be covered. He will most likely understand that.

You think it's bad now when people complain about the new rules passing in January and not released until February. If we didn't know anything about them until the rule books came out in June it would be even more ugly. If you want new rule books released in February the rules committee will have to meet in October. Good luck with that!
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 09, 2019, 07:43:17 AM
FLASHBACK : 2005....

I was the WH in an all star game held the summer after graduation for the seniors.
NEW RULE : 7-5-1; 7-5-2e  Only one forward pass may be thrown during a down.
Team A ,trailing 24-0, completes 2 forward passes for TD;
Team B coach calls TO and asks : "That's illegal now !!"
I responded : "We're playing with last year's rules."
Team B coach : "Why ???"
My rebuttal : "Because we are using last year's players. "

LESSON LEARNED : I should have informed coaches in pre-game that we were playing by last year's rules as not all of us may have a solid handle on the changes.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on April 09, 2019, 08:15:56 AM
FLASHBACK : 2005....

I was the WH in an all star game held the summer after graduation for the seniors.
NEW RULE : 7-5-1; 7-5-2e  Only one forward pass may be thrown during a down.
Team A ,trailing 24-0, completes 2 forward passes for TD;
Team B coach calls TO and asks : "That's illegal now !!"
I responded : "We're playing with last year's rules."
Team B coach : "Why ???"
My rebuttal : "Because we are using last year's players. "

LESSON LEARNED : I should have informed coaches in pre-game that we were playing by last year's rules as not all of us may have a solid handle on the changes.

In my situation we are using next years (or this year's) players, and the coaches are already preparing for the new rule by coaching their kids. It's unfair for them to have to do so without at least a basic understanding of the new rule. Granted, this rule is more involved than most. Why not give the schools at least a year to be able to upgrade their clocks, etc.? Kind of like the uniform changes.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bossman72 on April 09, 2019, 08:52:49 AM
Why not give the schools at least a year to be able to upgrade their clocks, etc.? Kind of like the uniform changes.

Because you don't need visible play clocks to officiate the new rule...
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 09, 2019, 10:29:11 AM
In my situation we are using next years (or this year's) players, and the coaches are already preparing for the new rule by coaching their kids. It's unfair for them to have to do so without at least a basic understanding of the new rule. Granted, this rule is more involved than most. Why not give the schools at least a year to be able to upgrade their clocks, etc.? Kind of like the uniform changes.
Where this isn't a Manual print year we'll have to rely on info supplied by the NFHS, much of which has been posted here. The concern of postponing the new rule to a future year as to allow schools update their play clock was that it would imply that a school SHOULD have a play clock. Many schools (all in Maine) wouldn't be able to afford such. Hopefully we can proceed with what we now have until we have more.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on April 09, 2019, 03:22:54 PM
In my situation we are using next years (or this year's) players, and the coaches are already preparing for the new rule by coaching their kids. It's unfair for them to have to do so without at least a basic understanding of the new rule. Granted, this rule is more involved than most. Why not give the schools at least a year to be able to upgrade their clocks, etc.? Kind of like the uniform changes.
Almost all of our schools have visible play clocks. When we started the experiment 3 years ago I believe our schools had even less time to address their play clocks. From what I understand in most cases it was a pretty simple code change or configuration change that took minutes. Some may have had to update a switch in the press box but again it was pretty cheap. I didn't hear of any issues with schools having to spend a lot of money or time, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: AlUpstateNY on April 09, 2019, 07:54:26 PM
Conversion and/or installation of Scoreboard Play Clocks, in areas where they are currently a distinct minority will pose a greater challenge. 
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on April 09, 2019, 10:08:28 PM
Conversion and/or installation of Scoreboard Play Clocks, in areas where they are currently a distinct minority will pose a greater challenge. 
The good news is one of the experimental states (Colorado) didn't have many visible play clocks and they had no issues with it. Some schools have now started putting in visible play clocks, but they aren't needed. The issue with visible play clocks is you have to be more strict in enforcing the play clock. You can be a little more flexible without visible play clocks.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 10, 2019, 08:31:08 AM
The good news is one of the experimental states (Colorado) didn't have many visible play clocks and they had no issues with it. Some schools have now started putting in visible play clocks, but they aren't needed. The issue with visible play clocks is you have to be more strict in enforcing the play clock. You can be a little more flexible without visible play clocks.
There have been rumors of some "battery failures" on ReadyRefs during running time in runaway games  ;) ;) !
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Morningrise on April 12, 2019, 08:44:14 AM
Agree that if you didn't need visible stadium clocks to play football with a 25 second PC in 2018, you don't need visible stadium clocks to play football with a 40 second PC in 2019 either.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Patrick E. on April 12, 2019, 02:06:58 PM
I'm surprised ready ref hasn't added a warning feature for the 20 or 25 second warning depending on rule code.  It already gives you a 10 second warning followed by the 5 second count down.

I called Joe Grimm today about added a 25 second warning feature.  After explaining why I thought it would be a good feature, he advised that he hasn't received much interest.  You can contact him at 800.223.5395 if you wish to also express interest.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: CalhounLJ on April 13, 2019, 10:23:06 AM
Agree that if you didn't need visible stadium clocks to play football with a 25 second PC in 2018, you don't need visible stadium clocks to play football with a 40 second PC in 2019 either.

I appreciate all the help and direction from all you guys. I also realize you donít need a visible play clock to play football. I also realize that every team I officiate for has a visible play clock and are very dependent on it. On the rare occasion one goes out it makes the game very awkward. Trust me- my teams are gonna need a way to use theirs. I also realize how very slow the administrative wheels turn in my state. All,of this is at the root of my concern.

Also, I appreciate the fact that you guys have all the questions answered. The posts on here have been very helpful. But at this point thatís all they are- posts on a message board. I can imagine trying to explain the procedure to a coach and he asks me where I got that idea. How about a memo or supplement to the manual?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: Magician on April 15, 2019, 12:44:49 AM
I appreciate all the help and direction from all you guys. I also realize you donít need a visible play clock to play football. I also realize that every team I officiate for has a visible play clock and are very dependent on it. On the rare occasion one goes out it makes the game very awkward. Trust me- my teams are gonna need a way to use theirs. I also realize how very slow the administrative wheels turn in my state. All,of this is at the root of my concern.

Also, I appreciate the fact that you guys have all the questions answered. The posts on here have been very helpful. But at this point thatís all they are- posts on a message board. I can imagine trying to explain the procedure to a coach and he asks me where I got that idea. How about a memo or supplement to the manual?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
If you already have visible play clocks they may already have the capability or it's fairly easy to update them. I'm basing this on the feedback I heard from our schools. It was often just a new toggle or a quick configuration change. No new wiring or clocks from what I heard.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: bama_stripes on April 15, 2019, 06:27:41 AM
If you already have visible play clocks they may already have the capability or it's fairly easy to update them. I'm basing this on the feedback I heard from our schools. It was often just a new toggle or a quick configuration change. No new wiring or clocks from what I heard.

All of our schools have visible play clocks.  When the rules changes were announced, we immediately informed them of the need to modify the timing devices.  To my knowledge, there have been no reported problems.
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on April 15, 2019, 08:59:16 AM
A bit confused by the Play Clock / Game Clock document on the NFHS site.  It was pointed out by our board interpreter that the section detailing the 40/25 clock operation (Section E. Play Clock Procedures) explicitly states that it applies "Ö.. if and when visible play clocks are available to be used."  His (and several other board interpreters) read of this is that if we don't have a visible play clock, that the 2018 25 second play clock will apply all game.  Several of the RI officials that I worked with last season also said that they have been told that the 40 second clock only applies to sites with visible play clocks.  Is the document simply poorly worded??
Title: Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
Post by: ilyazhito on April 15, 2019, 09:18:04 AM
The 40-second play clock will apply to everyone, visible play clock or not. Colorado, Michigan, Tennessee, Indiana, and anyone else who experimented with a 40-second play clock, did not universally have visible play clocks.

What was intended to be said in the document was that the play clock operator would react to the specified signals (dead-ball signal, stop-the-clock signal, or incomplete pass signal) as his cue to start the 40-second play clock, or to the pumping of one hand to reset the play clock to 25 seconds (or of 2 hands, to reset to 40 seconds).
 In the absence of a visible play clock, the officials themselves would start a 40-second play clock following the appropriate signals in the appropriate situations (dead-ball signal for a running play that ends inbounds without the game clock stopping, stop-clock signal for a running play that ends inbounds with a game-clock stoppage (first down gained), or out of bounds, or incomplete pass signal for an incomplete pass). The back judge (or other official responsible for the play clock) would also act on the one hand pumping and two-hand pumping signals from the Referee (the 25 and 40 second rests, respectively).
Because the people who write the rules for NFHS apparently do not have a proper command of English grammar and/or style, the words on the paper get butchered to mean that the 40-second play clock does not apply if there is no visible play clock available, which is now contrary to the 2019 NFHS football rules. The officials are, and remain, responsible for the play clock when there is no visible play clock, whether the play clock will be reset to 25 seconds, as it always had been before, or to 40 seconds in some situations and 25 in others, as it has been in the NFL and NCAA for the past 10+ years, and it will be in NFHS starting with the upcoming 2019 season.