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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: NVFOA_Ump on October 26, 2019, 07:03:37 AM

Title: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 26, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
1.  Would you wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds before the ball is back on the ground and ready for play in:

a.  1st quarter, no score
b.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 18 point differential
c.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 3 point differential
d.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 18 point differential
e.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 1 score game
f.  4th quarter, 2 minutes remaining, 1 score game

2.  Would you always wait to wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds until both the box is set and the ball is on the ground and ready for play?


Title: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 26, 2019, 07:33:29 AM
I wind the ball when the down box is set. In all situations above.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: bama_stripes on October 26, 2019, 08:26:12 AM
I wind the ball when the down box is set. In all situations above

Agree.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 26, 2019, 10:56:31 AM
So we are winding, even late in the 2nd or 4th quarter regardless of the score differential, as soon as the box is in, regardless of the actual location of the ball (ie: ball not down and ready) when we wind?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM
Yes. Thatís supposed to be the reason for the :40, right? To provide consistency from play to play. If Iím doing it in the first quarter Iím not changing in the 4th. Everybody should be used to it by then.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on October 26, 2019, 12:36:10 PM
Ohio must be using different mechanics.  I'm winding when the ball is set and the U steps away.  We do not wait for the down box.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 27, 2019, 06:38:16 AM
Yes. Thatís supposed to be the reason for the :40, right? To provide consistency from play to play. If Iím doing it in the first quarter Iím not changing in the 4th. Everybody should be used to it by then.
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Actually no, the "new 40" and the winding the game clock are in no way connected.  The "silent wind" (read Ready For Play) has not changed this year except for the fact that it's now silent.  IMHO the mechanics are the same as they have always been:

1.  Ball is actually down and
2.  U has moved away (indicating he's checked and crew is ready) and
3.  Box is down (or alternately if accepted in your area a bag is down to mark spot for the box)

While certainly this can be "flexed" based on time in game and score of game winding before the ball is actually ready when a game where seconds can/do impact the result is incorrect and not based on any guidelines that I have seen.  Have seen too many R's doing this like it's some kind of fixed time mechanic without any attention being paid to where the ball and the U are.  The Ready For Play should actually be the Ready For Play.  IMHO we should not be winding when A is in formation at the line in hurry up and the ball is not actually RFP.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 27, 2019, 07:30:29 AM
The problem is your interpretation of ďsilent windĒ is incorrect. The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play. The silent wind is employed immediately after a new series is awarded to A after a first down inbounds. The ball is ready for play when the U sets it down and moves away. Due to the :40, neither the game clock or the play clock is dependent on this. FWIW, it not been a problem for us because in every case, the ball has been down by the time the down box has been set.

In either case, Iím not changing the pace according to the game situation. What I do in the first quarter is what I do in the fourth. Thatís what I meant by consistency. All this has been discussed and approved by our assignor.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 27, 2019, 10:21:28 AM
The problem is your interpretation of ďsilent windĒ is incorrect. The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play. The silent wind is employed immediately after a new series is awarded to A after a first down inbounds. The ball is ready for play when the U sets it down and moves away. Due to the :40, neither the game clock or the play clock is dependent on this. FWIW, it not been a problem for us because in every case, the ball has been down by the time the down box has been set.

In either case, Iím not changing the pace according to the game situation. What I do in the first quarter is what I do in the fourth. Thatís what I meant by consistency. All this has been discussed and approved by our assignor.


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Maybe you didn't read the original question correctly?  The question was would you wind the clock BEFORE the ball is actually ready for play?
Title: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 27, 2019, 12:18:28 PM
No I read the question. Maybe you didnít understand the answer. Yes. I will wind the clock in a first down inbounds when the down box is set.

Also note in my previous reply Iíve experienced no problems with this as in the vast majority, if not all situations, the ball is down and ready by the time the down box is set.

What Iím not going to do is vary the timing of the silent wind according to the game situation. That would be unfair to one of the teams. If that was not the implication of the various situations you posted, then maybe I did misread the post.

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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 27, 2019, 12:29:38 PM
Hereís my progression on a 12yd run for a first down:
1. Ball is dead, check with my L. If heís signaling stop the clock and giving me the first down signal, Iím mirroring him. Iíll stop the clock, signal first down.
2. Check the down box guy. Iím watching him move while my U spots the ball or works another one in. As. Soon as the stick is down at the succeeding spot, I give the silent wind.
3. By this time the U has the ball down and is either moving to his position because A is not pressing, or is waiting on me.
4. If heís waiting on me, I send him back and we move in.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 27, 2019, 12:54:59 PM
The problem is your interpretation of ďsilent windĒ is incorrect. The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

Following some serious skepticism about converting to a "40 second Play Clock", actual experience to the procedure suggest my concerns may well have been, "Much ado, about nothing", although 1 doubting question remains.

Why, did we make the RFP signal "silent"?  Arguably, a confirming whistle, by the Referee DESIGNATED an exact moment the ball was RFP (eliminating ANY NEED for interpretation, confusion or doubt.  A procedure that seemed to have worked exceptionally well for 100, or so years.

The current procedure, as evidenced by answers to this list of comments, is NOW subject to interpretation (which by it's essence creates potential difference (confusion, doubt, disagreement) and is dependent on whether ALL involved parties were actually LOOKING at the Umpire/Referee (Depending on the interpretation being followed) as opposed to a CONSISTENT Referee's whistle, which EVERYBODY INSTANTLY UNDERSTOOD.

CLEARLY, the existing process was NOT broken and UNIVERSALLY understood and accepted,  Why on earth was it changed?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 27, 2019, 12:58:02 PM
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 27, 2019, 02:16:00 PM
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.

Believe it, or not, I DO UNDERSTAND," The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play." AS WELL AS, "The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.". 

My suggestion was simply inferring that the way it was previously done:
 
(The Referee DECLARING the ball was RFP (while confirming whether the Game Clock was to restart on the RFP or Snap, was absolutely consistent (also helpful and confirming to the Game Clock Operator).

DECLARING the EXACT moment of the RFP (eliminating the need for INTERPRETATION, confusion or doubt), which had been UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED as such for 100, or so, years without a lot of consternation.

Unfortunately, I currently fail to appreciate the need for changing (an unbroken, universally understood signal) in favor of an apparently interpretive movement by a game official (Umpire) who may well not be visible to all players, and was hoping for some logical enlightenment and/or practical justification, to help ally my concerns.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 27, 2019, 02:21:03 PM

Why, did we make the RFP signal "silent"?
Ok sorry. I was confused by this question after you quoted my post concerning the ďsilent wind.Ē


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: SCline on October 27, 2019, 10:07:35 PM
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.


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I hate to quibble but this is incorrect, the silent wind is meant to indicate when the GCO shall start the clock in accordance with 3-4-2a. 3-4-2a says that the GC shall start with the ready for play which is only after it has been placed down (3-6-1b both 1 and 2).

Starting the game clock before the ball has been ďplaced for a downĒ is incorrect.



Regarding the original post I would answer yes to question 2
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: ilyazhito on October 27, 2019, 10:30:26 PM
1.  Would you wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds before the ball is back on the ground and ready for play in:

a.  1st quarter, no score
b.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 18 point differential
c.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 3 point differential
d.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 18 point differential
e.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 1 score game
f.  4th quarter, 2 minutes remaining, 1 score game

2.  Would you always wait to wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds until both the box is set and the ball is on the ground and ready for play?
For question 1, in all scenarios the answer would be no, because the game clock does not restart until the ball is ready for play, whether under 2018 NFHS rules with a 25-second play clock for all scenarios, or under the current 40/25 second play clock rules. For question 2, I would wait until the ball is on the ground, because the box can always be set at its new position by the H (or L, in states that switch sides at halftime) with a bean bag, and the game clock starts when the ball is ready for play, so ready for play trumps the presence or absence of the box as a consideration for starting the game clock. If the delay is long enough that the play clock is under 25 before the box arrives, I would stop the game and play clocks, reset the play clock to 25, and start both clocks with the traditional ready-for-play signal.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 28, 2019, 05:20:12 AM
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.


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Sorry, but that is flat out 100% incorrect by rule.  The ready for play by rule must be when the BALL IS ACTUALLY READY FOR PLAY.  If you are saying that your "checklist" goes in a different order and the ball is always ready by the time you wind that's fine, but the game clock should/must not be wound after an official administrative stoppage if in fact the ball is not actually RFP.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 28, 2019, 06:07:42 AM
Well, Iíve been misled by my college friends then.
Follow Up on 40/25 Concerns
 https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=2083325&share_tid=14692&share_pid=149396&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Erefstripes%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D14692%2Emsg149396%23msg149396&share_type=t&link_source=app
Posts like this and personal conversations with college WHs led me to believe the only reason to stop the clock was to award a first down, followed immediately by the silent wind, regardless of whether the ball was RFP.  The game clock guidelines imply this stoppage is not even considered administrative.

4. There is no signal/whistle from the referee during the 40 seconds except to restart the game clock following a first down inbounds. It is important to note that none of the situations listed above involve an administrative stop/interruption in play. All of those possibilities are addressed in the next section.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: bama_stripes on October 28, 2019, 07:17:32 AM
I went back and watched a tape of one of my games from earlier this year.  Apparently my subconscious ďprocessĒ following a first down inbounds is to see the ball placed down before even looking toward the box and giving the silent wind.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: bossman72 on October 28, 2019, 08:06:05 AM
I wind the ball when the down box is set. In all situations above.


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You guys are wasting valuable opportunities to shave time off of your game.  Wind as soon as you can, even before the ball is set, unless it's a team doing a 2 minute drill.  Then, wait until they are set and the U has started to back out.  Don't wait for the box!
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 28, 2019, 08:29:36 AM
Iíll pass this along to my assignor. He has instructed us to do it the way Iím doing it. Still, I havenít noticed a measurable difference.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: TampaSteve on October 28, 2019, 09:22:05 AM
You guys are wasting valuable opportunities to shave time off of your game.  Wind as soon as you can, even before the ball is set, unless it's a team doing a 2 minute drill.  Then, wait until they are set and the U has started to back out.  Don't wait for the box!
what he said.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 28, 2019, 02:51:06 PM
Iíll pass this along to my assignor. He has instructed us to do it the way Iím doing it. Still, I havenít noticed a measurable difference.
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Acknowledge that the difference is small, but when a team is running a no-huddle and the clock is being wound before the ball is ready for play, it's a bad visual.  Especially so when you realize that we're stretching the rules when we are doing that.  The original post came from watching some videos online of a NFHS game and the R was simply walking up to exactly 5 yards from the new box yard line, signaling 1st down and immediately winding without ever even looking toward the box or the U.  Consistent 100% of the time but the visual when team A is at the line waiting for a ball to be placed and the clock is already running is not good.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 28, 2019, 03:41:58 PM
Acknowledge that the difference is small, but when a team is running a no-huddle and the clock is being wound before the ball is ready for play, it's a bad visual.  Especially so when you realize that we're stretching the rules when we are doing that.  The original post came from watching some videos online of a NFHS game and the R was simply walking up to exactly 5 yards from the new box yard line, signaling 1st down and immediately winding without ever even looking toward the box or the U.  Consistent 100% of the time but the visual when team A is at the line waiting for a ball to be placed and the clock is already running is not good.
Understand completely. Thanks for pointing this out.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 28, 2019, 05:22:35 PM
Acknowledge that the difference is small, but when a team is running a no-huddle and the clock is being wound before the ball is ready for play, it's a bad visual.  Especially so when you realize that we're stretching the rules when we are doing that.  The original post came from watching some videos online of a NFHS game and the R was simply walking up to exactly 5 yards from the new box yard line, signaling 1st down and immediately winding without ever even looking toward the box or the U.  Consistent 100% of the time but the visual when team A is at the line waiting for a ball to be placed and the clock is already running is not good.

Really NOT looking to beat a dead horse, but is shaving 1-2 seconds THAT important (either way). If the Offense is seeking an advantage by being instantly ready, are we required to assist them?  The Defense has to be alert, but would it be "unfair" to give them (and EVERYBODY ELSE) precise notification WHEN the the ball was being declared RFP (by the simple, consistent recognizably toot of a whistle)? 

That would eliminate the necessity that EVERYBODY (on both teams) had to focus on the Umpire to determine the exact moment he placed the ball down, as opposed to an audible signal that successfully alerts EVERYONE, and has done so successfully, for 100 or so years.

Am I missing something?  Is there a logical, practical, necessary reason for converting that EXACT designation to a silent signal? (Aside from, "That's the way the bigger guys do it").
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on October 28, 2019, 11:30:21 PM
Iíll pass this along to my assignor. He has instructed us to do it the way Iím doing it. Still, I havenít noticed a measurable difference.

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Your description is exactly how our experiment was run for the past 3 years. Go ahead and wind the game clock 5-7 seconds after the play clock starts regardless of location of the ball and status of RFP for most of the half other than the last couple minutes when time is more critical. Nobody but the game clock operator is paying attention to the clock at that point so there is no negative visual to worry about. They are paying attention when time is critical. It sounds like your assigner is instructing as designed. The rule is a little more technical, but I think that's the way you have to handle it so you can apply it when time is more critical.

If other states/areas are being more technical they aren't wrong and shouldn't be criticized. They just aren't taking advantage of an opportunity to keep the game flowing.

As for the consistency factor, it has very little to do with consistent time from dead ball to RFP and everything to do with dead ball to DOG. That's where the consistency is important. Whether the ball is RFP at 35 seconds or 23 seconds due to ball rotation or coach/player instruction doesn't matter. The offense still has 40 seconds to call their play, make subs, get into formation, shift/motion and snap the ball. It's not going to be 30 seconds one play and 42 seconds the next play using the examples above. I know I'm a broken record on this but many people still don't seem to realize this.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 29, 2019, 12:00:56 AM
Thatís exactly what I thought I learned through this process. You and other veteran officials all said the same thing. Iíve been trying to implement this as you guys have advised and think it has gone well in my games. Once again, thank you for the input.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 29, 2019, 07:01:33 AM
If the Offense is seeking an advantage by being instantly ready, are we required to assist them?

According to the rules yes.  We've got under 1 minute, team A out of timeouts, behind by 2 points, throwing 12-15 yards outs to WR's.  3 consecutive completions in-bounds with the R doing the same mechanics and winding at 4-5 seconds without the ball or the box down.  Each time team A is in position and waiting for the ball to be placed.  Team A is hustling and under center at the B12 waiting to snap then spike the ball to then attempt the winning field goal and the clock runs out as the U is just starting to put the ball down.

I've got no issues with "shaving a few" before the ball is down when team A is going back into the huddle and using more than 30 seconds of play clock repeatedly, although technically that is not supported by rule, but we should not be shaving when were in a 1 score game and a team is in hurry-up.  We're not assisting them in that case we're simply following the rules.

And to respond to the oft repeated broken record question, I would be strongly in favor of an "audible wind" at all times when the game clock has been stopped  to notify everyone of what we are doing since IMO one problem with the silent wind is way too many people do not understand what we're doing.  And I don't understand why we're doing it other than to obscure when we're starting the clock to the 98% of the people, including coaching staffs who, unlike the CO, are not locked in on the R.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 29, 2019, 09:28:32 AM
According to the rules yes. 

And to respond to the oft repeated broken record question, I would be strongly in favor of an "audible wind" at all times when the game clock has been stopped  to notify everyone of what we are doing since IMO one problem with the silent wind is way too many people do not understand what we're doing.  And I don't understand why we're doing it other than to obscure when we're starting the clock to the 98% of the people, including coaching staffs who, unlike the CO, are not locked in on the R.

When/Why have we CHANGED the BASIC PREMISE that "The game is designed to COMPLY with the RULES, rather than the RULES should ADJUST to better suit certain SITUATIONS (Designed to FAVOR either team)? Rules are usually designed NOT to favor any specific participation.

RFP (Ready for Play) should be exact, consistent and RECOGNIZABLE to BOTH TEAMS (and everyone else). The Current designation: "the ball has been placed on the ground by a game official and the game official has stepped away to position as in 3-6-1a(2)" as written leaves unnecessary margin for error (dropped or ended physical contact, safely removed himself, no longer an obstacle, etc) ALL of which could be eliminated by the REQUIRED CONFIRMATION of a Referee's whistle signal (which has proven it's viability over the past 100, or so, years).

The problem is NOT with the conversion to a 40 second play clock, rather than with the elimination of the, long established, specific CONFIRMATION, declaring that the RFP has occurred. 

Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Morningrise on October 29, 2019, 03:30:36 PM
For most of the game, wind it when the ball gets to the U's hands. If not before.

Yes, the rulebook says it's supposed to start when the ball is ready for play. No, it's not truly ready for play until the U spots it and steps away.

Wind it anyway.

In ten years of D3 college games plus one year of NFHS silent winds, I've never had a single coach complain that the clock was starting too fast.

Whereas I *have* had observers, not to mention veteran crewmates, tell me that my white-hat game could stand to be a little bit faster, i.e. winding the clock a little bit sooner.

But. When seconds matter - or any time Team A is running a hurry-up - then don't wind it until the U spots the ball.

To me, this is just like the adage about always starting a series on a "tick" except at those points in the game when inches matter. Yes, the rulebook says the ball is supposed to be spotted right where it became dead. No, it rarely becomes dead on an integer yard line. Spot it there anyway. When a team has made a first down by inches, or when the goal line is nearby, then we revert to doing it "exact." The rest of the time, do what every other level of "40/25 football" does: Wind that sucker and then spot it on a tick.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 29, 2019, 03:53:20 PM
For most of the game, wind it when the ball gets to the U's hands. If not before.
Yes, the rulebook says it's supposed to start when the ball is ready for play. No, it's not truly ready for play until the U spots it and steps away.Wind it anyway.

But. When seconds matter - or any time Team A is running a hurry-up - then don't wind it until the U spots the ball.

Agree with your assessments, but why are we trying to hide what we're doing?  The Referee assesses EACH situation and DECIDES (exclusively) when to DECLARE the RFP.  WHY did we stop announcing that designation moment to the world ( avoiding POTENTIAL argument, complaint, confusion).
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 29, 2019, 07:25:38 PM
For goodness sake, somebody PLEASE give Al a whistle.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on October 29, 2019, 08:51:04 PM
For most of the game, wind it when the ball gets to the U's hands. If not before.

Yes, the rulebook says it's supposed to start when the ball is ready for play. No, it's not truly ready for play until the U spots it and steps away.

Wind it anyway.

In ten years of D3 college games plus one year of NFHS silent winds, I've never had a single coach complain that the clock was starting too fast.

Whereas I *have* had observers, not to mention veteran crewmates, tell me that my white-hat game could stand to be a little bit faster, i.e. winding the clock a little bit sooner.

But. When seconds matter - or any time Team A is running a hurry-up - then don't wind it until the U spots the ball.

To me, this is just like the adage about always starting a series on a "tick" except at those points in the game when inches matter. Yes, the rulebook says the ball is supposed to be spotted right where it became dead. No, it rarely becomes dead on an integer yard line. Spot it there anyway. When a team has made a first down by inches, or when the goal line is nearby, then we revert to doing it "exact." The rest of the time, do what every other level of "40/25 football" does: Wind that sucker and then spot it on a tick.

These are comments made by a learned, veteran official who understands what it means to officiate WITH the book and not BY the book. You effectively manage the game doing this and keep things moving along in an efficient manner without bastardizing the rules. Good job!
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on October 29, 2019, 08:54:59 PM
For goodness sake, somebody PLEASE give Al a whistle.


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The press box probably wouldn't like it if he was blowing a whistle when running the clock!
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: zebrastripes on October 30, 2019, 07:20:31 AM
Agree with your assessments, but why are we trying to hide what we're doing?  The Referee assesses EACH situation and DECIDES (exclusively) when to DECLARE the RFP.  WHY did we stop announcing that designation moment to the world ( avoiding POTENTIAL argument, complaint, confusion).
No amount of bold, capitalized, italicized, and/or underlined text is going to make you seem like anything other than an old-timer who can't adapt with the times and needs everything spelled out.

It's really not complicated. U places ball down, it's RFP when the :40 is running. You are making a mountain out of a molehill, as usual.

I know you probably think "because this is INTERSCHOLASTIC football" that the participants need a whistle each time to know they can snap it. Fortunately, the current rules have worked at other levels for years now and there's no reason they can't work at the INTERSCHOLASTIC level. There will be growing pains of course, but there's no indicator that they won't be overcome.

The reality for you is, you may not agree with the NFHS's rationale for changing rules or may long to have every detail spelled out for you instead of applying common sense, but guess what? The NFHS does not answer to you or any of us.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 30, 2019, 09:42:58 AM
Thanks Zebrastripes for (what I presume was your best effort at Constructive criticism).  Actually I usually agree, and eagerly accept, "the NFHS's rationale for changing rules" and don't really need, " to have every detail spelled out for you", although the better I'm able to understand adjustments, the better I've been able to apply them and appreciate the intentions of the NFHS in making the adjustment.

I may have missed it, but unfortunately, I don't recall EVER SEEING a common sense reference to why the declaration of the RFP was changed to a silent application, and rather than guess and presume, was asking for and would simply appreciate clarification.  Apparently, you have no idea either, otherwise you could have explained it clearly, eliminating my concerns.

Although enjoying having worked at multiple "other levels" I've learned that "What may even be extremely effective, for the goose, may not be all that practical, or applicable for the gander", which believe it or not, may even be a simple oversight.  One proven way to overcome ignorance, is to request clarifying, explanatory detail. 

Rather that speculate on what you presume, "I may think", should you ever have a relevant question, please feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to provide you with an accurate clarification.  For the record, I actually do, and have always understood, "The NFHS does not answer to you or any of us." but it's always been my understanding that they are genuinely interested in, appreciate and consider relevant and constructive question and feedback.

 "Growing pains" actually come in different sizes, some are necessary, instructional and ultimately beneficial while others too often prove to be unnecessary, counterproductive and even stupid. Should you last long enough to becoming an "Old Timer", You might also learn to consider that the benefit and value of adapting is directly related to the quality and improvement of the adaption.  Football rules are a perfect example of "One size NEVER fits all (at least as well).
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: js in sc on October 30, 2019, 10:12:11 AM
I have been told that once the play clock starts (on the dead ball signal with the 40 sec clock), any subsequent whistle will stop the clock and be considered an inadvertant whistle.  4-2-3: "an inadvertant whistle ends the down".
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 30, 2019, 10:37:45 AM
I have been told that once the play clock starts (on the dead ball signal with the 40 sec clock), any subsequent whistle will stop the clock and be considered an inadvertant whistle.  4-2-3: "an inadvertant whistle ends the down".

By definition and by rule the ball has to be live before you can have an Inadvertent Whistle.  Somebody is telling you fairy tales.   ;D
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: chriscwilson on October 30, 2019, 11:29:18 AM
We (Michigan) just started using the 40-second clock as a standard this year.  We were instructed to wind when the box is set.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: PABJNR on October 30, 2019, 11:49:52 AM
In PA we were instructed to not wait for the box.  This has been a hot topic and I donít understand why. How many times has a team almost snapped the ball before itís ready. I had one all year and it was in a 25 off of a COP.  In hurry up all that needs done is tell the center and or QB donít snap it until the U tells you, points at you or whatever other signal is used.

I like the silent wind personally, my ears no longer ring after a varsity game from blowing the whistle all night. I think the games pace is also a lot smoother from the change.




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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 30, 2019, 01:08:44 PM
I'm eating more crow than usual over this. I was completely and passionately against the :40 when it came out, and now I would not want to go back to the "old way" under any circumstances. I scoffed at Magician for suggesting the benefit of not having to blow the whistle so much, and that is one the best things I have discovered!! That, and consistent administration when the game/half is winding down. It has taken virtually all the load off us and placed time management squarely on the shoulders of the coaches, which is where it belongs. In our game two weeks ago, the home team was ahead 35-34 when the visitors threw an interception. there was 1:24 left on the clock. the coach told my wing, "According to my chart, we should be able to run it out from here by taking a knee." He did, and we all went home happy. Back in the days of the :25, a quick whistle and RFP could have made him punt.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on October 30, 2019, 06:08:18 PM
I'm eating more crow than usual over this. I was completely and passionately against the :40 when it came out, and now I would not want to go back to the "old way" under any circumstances. I scoffed at Magician for suggesting the benefit of not having to blow the whistle so much, and that is one the best things I have discovered!! That, and consistent administration when the game/half is winding down. It has taken virtually all the load off us and placed time management squarely on the shoulders of the coaches, which is where it belongs. In our game two weeks ago, the home team was ahead 35-34 when the visitors threw an interception. there was 1:24 left on the clock. the coach told my wing, "According to my chart, we should be able to run it out from here by taking a knee." He did, and we all went home happy. Back in the days of the :25, a quick whistle and RFP could have made him punt.

I'm glad you enjoy the change. No need to eat any crow. This is the third time I've been through this and every time the opposition you and others mentioned were the same as those from previous transitions. I believe the transition can be a little more difficult with no visible play clocks, but they also have the benefit of being a little more flexible when necessary.

As for the reason of a silent wind, I believe it's because the game clock often starts before the actual RFP (by philosophy and not by rule). The whistle may be confusing to those on the field because it doesn't affect them at all. The offense knows the ball is ready for play because the umpire is not standing over the ball. If we are at the end of a half though and the offense wants to snap as soon as possible after the game clock starts I think it makes perfect sense to add a whistle at that point so the offense knows. It will be a second or two after the U steps back so he can get into a safe position. I'm also perfectly fine if they want to allow the R to give a quick tweet if he's starting the game clock after a first down in bounds. It's not that many more whistles during the game.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on October 30, 2019, 07:08:47 PM
If we are winding and/or declaring the ball RFP before the ball and/or chains are set, why do we still stop the clock at all?

How many times a game do I; stop the clock 2X, signal 1st down, and then wind it?  Three signals and my arms never stop moving.

Change the rule, keep the game clock running. 

No more silent wind.  No more silent wind.

Sounds better every time I say it.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 30, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
I vote for this.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on October 30, 2019, 09:52:09 PM
If we are winding and/or declaring the ball RFP before the ball and/or chains are set, why do we still stop the clock at all?

How many times a game do I; stop the clock 2X, signal 1st down, and then wind it?  Three signals and my arms never stop moving.

Change the rule, keep the game clock running. 

No more silent wind.  No more silent wind.

Sounds better every time I say it.

I would be OK with that as long as we go back to current clock status on first downs in the last 2 minutes of a half. We probably start the game clock around 32-34 on the play clock so it's still 6-8 seconds after the previous play. RFP can range anywhere from 25-35 most plays.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: SCline on October 30, 2019, 09:57:35 PM
If we are winding and/or declaring the ball RFP before the ball and/or chains are set, why do we still stop the clock at all?

How many times a game do I; stop the clock 2X, signal 1st down, and then wind it?  Three signals and my arms never stop moving.

Change the rule, keep the game clock running. 

No more silent wind.  No more silent wind.

Sounds better every time I say it.

I wouldnít mind this
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 31, 2019, 05:43:30 AM
How many times a game do I; stop the clock 2X, signal 1st down, and then wind it?  Three signals and my arms never stop moving.

Except we're not supposed to be doing that.  The rule is crystal clear and unambiguous, the silent wind is in fact the RFP and should follow the ball being placed down and actually ready for play.  The only "exception" is we don't need to wait for the box to be set.  If you're giving 3 consecutive signals and your "arm never stops moving" then slow down.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on October 31, 2019, 05:58:02 AM
Except we're not supposed to be doing that.  The rule is crystal clear and unambiguous, ...
I am doing exactly what I am supposed to do.  I am following the rule and the specified mechanics. 

A run up the middle ends at the feet of the U.

I observe the players around the ball for a second or two and then look at the LJ.  He is stopping he clock and signaling 1st down.

I mirror his signal and announce "1st down."  While doing so, I do not look at the chains or down box because that no longer matters. 

I am watching the U, and he has already spotted the ball is is stepping away.

Silent wind.





Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 31, 2019, 06:07:58 AM
Except we're not supposed to be doing that.  The rule is crystal clear and unambiguous, the silent wind is in fact the RFP and should follow the ball being placed down and actually ready for play.  The only "exception" is we don't need to wait for the box to be set.  If you're giving 3 consecutive signals and your "arm never stops moving" then slow down.
Which is it? Are we supposed to be ďshaving seconds off the gameĒ by starting the clock as soon as possible without having to wait for the down box? Or are we supposed to slow down and wait until everything and everybody is RFP? I think your quest for wanting to call it ďby the bookĒ instead of ďwith the bookĒ is becoming confusing.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: HLTN on October 31, 2019, 07:58:30 AM
In Tennessee, we wind as soon as the ball is set.  We don't wait for the down box or chains.
If the snap is imminent and the box isn't set, head linesmen are instructed to drop a bean bag at the spot.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 31, 2019, 08:25:00 AM
Just out of curiosity, have you had to drop a bean bag yet?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: scrounge on October 31, 2019, 08:31:00 AM
Just out of curiosity, have you had to drop a bean bag yet?

We have the same mechanic as a last resort in OH. Never once have I even come close to having to do this. If we had the 40 second clock in subvarsity with their much worse chain crews, I may have had to do so but thankfully we're not using the 40 second in those games.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 31, 2019, 09:50:11 AM
We kill the clock when the first down is achieved,  we then signal 1st down after we've moved into an area where we should be visible to all, and following the 1st down signal wind the clock after the ball is down and RFP.  How can that be 3 consecutive motions where the "arm never stops"????????????
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: HLTN on October 31, 2019, 10:45:41 AM
Just out of curiosity, have you had to drop a bean bag yet?

I've only seen it once.  Long run, late in the 2nd quarter, chain crew wasn't the fittest nor the most motivated.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 31, 2019, 11:03:46 AM
Thatís what I imagined. This is. Mountain/molehill stuff. Thereís not enough difference between the two to even perceive the difference.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 31, 2019, 11:06:33 AM
We kill the clock when the first down is achieved,  we then signal 1st down after we've moved into an area where we should be visible to all, and following the 1st down signal wind the clock after the ball is down and RFP.  How can that be 3 consecutive motions where the "arm never stops"????????????
For the record, as WH Iím nearly always visible to the all who matter. The three consecutive motions are stopping the clock, signaling first dow and the silent wind. Which can all be done within a span of 10 seconds, which is the normal time span to spot the ball and move the down box.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on October 31, 2019, 12:43:24 PM
10 secs or so is fine, but I'm seeing some consistent under 5 with not even a glance at the U to see if the ball is down.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 31, 2019, 01:54:45 PM
Just for the record, my question (concern) was NOT as much about when we declare the ball RFP, rather Why are we NOW being secretive about it?  For GENERATIONS we've clearly defined exactly when the RFP is declared, by the combination of a signal (either a wind, or snap) accompanied by a designating audible whistle.

The 40 second rule revision does seem effective in reducing "wasted" time, and the recommended mechanic of dropping a bean bag to mark the spot for the chains, when there's a delay in resetting the chains, seems a simple, practical way to avoid unnecessary delay.

Visibly and audibly consistently declaring an exact moment each time an RFP is established, has long proven to be a convenient, practical, way to alert ALL 22 players scattered across the playing field, 4,5,6 or 7 Game Officials and the entire Coaching staffs and Bench areas of both teams of the precise instant, that the status of the ball (becoming RFP) had changed, regardless of where anyone's attention may have wandered.

Bad mechanics habits are not going to be corrected by rule, any rule.  That requires habit correction, whether we're considering a 25 second, 40 second, or open ended clock procedure, and are best dealt with by specific, appropriate mechanics review, and where necessary remedial training.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on October 31, 2019, 02:03:58 PM
Honestly, we have experienced 0 problems with either team understanding when the ball is ready for play.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on October 31, 2019, 03:27:09 PM
Honestly, we have experienced 0 problems with either team understanding when the ball is ready for play.

We can continue "hoping" that trend will continue, or we could take a rather simple step to insure it does.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: VALJ on November 06, 2019, 09:45:42 AM
Just for the record, my question (concern) was NOT as much about when we declare the ball RFP, rather Why are we NOW being secretive about it?  For GENERATIONS we've clearly defined exactly when the RFP is declared, by the combination of a signal (either a wind, or snap) accompanied by a designating audible whistle.

The 40 second rule revision does seem effective in reducing "wasted" time, and the recommended mechanic of dropping a bean bag to mark the spot for the chains, when there's a delay in resetting the chains, seems a simple, practical way to avoid unnecessary delay.

Visibly and audibly consistently declaring an exact moment each time an RFP is established, has long proven to be a convenient, practical, way to alert ALL 22 players scattered across the playing field, 4,5,6 or 7 Game Officials and the entire Coaching staffs and Bench areas of both teams of the precise instant, that the status of the ball (becoming RFP) had changed, regardless of where anyone's attention may have wandered.

Bad mechanics habits are not going to be corrected by rule, any rule.  That requires habit correction, whether we're considering a 25 second, 40 second, or open ended clock procedure, and are best dealt with by specific, appropriate mechanics review, and where necessary remedial training.

 deadhorse:

The umpire stepping away from the football seems pretty easy to recognize to me.  If he's standing there, they can't snap it.  If he's not, game on.

Heck, it even seems convenient and practical, too, since the guy snapping the ball is the one that the umpire is standing in front of.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 06, 2019, 10:12:44 AM
My ďblock buttonĒ seems to be missing from this forum.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: scrounge on November 06, 2019, 10:19:08 AM
We can continue "hoping" that trend will continue, or we could take a rather simple step to insure it does.

You can keep yelling at a cloud, railing against a problem that simply has not come to pass, but the rest of the world has moved on.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: js in sc on November 06, 2019, 10:20:25 AM
I realize the confusion about when exactly is the ball ready for play.  I am curious about when, during this process, is the neutral zone established?  This is important in regards to a dead ball foul prior to establishing the neutral zone as it would reset the chains.  The rules state the neutral zone is "established when the ball is marked ready for play".  When, during all of this, does that happen? ???
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: VALJ on November 06, 2019, 10:36:49 AM
I realize the confusion about when exactly is the ball ready for play.  I am curious about when, during this process, is the neutral zone established?  This is important in regards to a dead ball foul prior to establishing the neutral zone as it would reset the chains.  The rules state the neutral zone is "established when the ball is marked ready for play".  When, during all of this, does that happen? ???

Per rule 3-6-1:
Quote

b. The ball is ready for play:

1. When the ball has been placed for a down and the referee marks the ball ready for play after giving the ready-for-play signal as in 3-6-1a(1);

2. Starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position as in 3-6-1a(2).[/quote[

When the U steps away to his position, the ball is RFP, and the scrimmage lines are established.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 06, 2019, 11:46:58 AM
One of our board member officials who now is a fulltime college official (almost exclusively Ivy League games) offered that he was given the explanation that the whistle for RFP is an indication that a 25 second play clock has just started and that the "no whistle wind" after a 1st down is intended to indicate that the play clock is already running, and that the ball is now ready for play.  That seems to make sense to me.

No whistle and the ball on the ground uncovered by an official, were RFP on a running 40 second play clock, an explicit whistle RFP the ball is now ready and were on a 25 second play clock that started on the whistle.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 01:19:17 PM
No whistle and the ball on the ground uncovered by an official, were RFP on a running 40 second play clock, an explicit whistle RFP the ball is now ready and were on a 25 second play clock that started on the whistle.

How does this improve a standard, universal (whistle with signal) as a means to alert players (& sidelines) that the ball has been specifically declared RFP, so EVERYONE (on both teams) is made aware of the change in status (of the ball) at the exact same moment, regardless of where their attention might be temporarily focused?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 07, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
How does this improve a standard, universal (whistle with signal) as a means to alert players (& sidelines) that the ball has been specifically declared RFP, so EVERYONE (on both teams) is made aware of the change in status (of the ball) at the exact same moment, regardless of where their attention might be temporarily focused?


Unless you want to snap the ball ASAP, the exact moment the ball becomes ready for play is not important to anyone. Ultimately the only one who needs to know the exact moment the game clock starts is the ECO. I agree it could be helpful at the end of a half if the U needs that extra second or two to get away because the offense wants to go immediately. Using the whistle allows him to do that before the RFP/game clock start. I do actually prefer the whistle any time the R is starting the game clock after a first down in bounds, but only because I selfishly like to know when he's done it if I'm not looking at him.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 05:02:00 PM
I do actually prefer the whistle any time the R is starting the game clock after a first down in bounds, but only because I selfishly like to know when he's done it if I'm not looking at him.

Do you think that same, audible notification might be useful to the Defensive team, should one or more of them be temporarily/momentarily distracted focusing elsewhere? What the simple sounding of a whistle does is alert everyone the ball is RFP at the same instant, preventing any unintentional, unearned advantages/disadvantages. 

Doing so worked really well, for a very long time without creating any problems or unnecessary confusion.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2019, 05:08:04 PM
Do you think that same, audible notification might be useful to the Defensive team, should one or more of them be temporarily/momentarily distracted focusing elsewhere? What the simple sounding of a whistle does is alert everyone the ball is RFP at the same instant, preventing any unintentional, unearned advantages/disadvantages. 

Doing so worked really well, for a very long time without creating any problems or unnecessary confusion.
Seriously, have you called a game since the new rule change? You keep building these straw man arguments that I have not experienced in the 9 games I have called. You are worried about a problem that does not exist.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Seriously, have you called a game since the new rule change? You keep building these straw man arguments that I have not experienced in the 9 games I have called. You are worried about a problem that does not exist.

Seems almost the EXACT same logic as "making changes about universal practices that NEVER seemed to cause any problem."  Does this "change" eliminate, or correct a problem, or needlessly,  create potential ones?  Usually, changes are implemented for a specific reason, or  intended to provide a benefit, improvement or to reduce, or eliminate an existing problem.  I was just hoping for a logical reason.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2019, 05:20:36 PM
All I know is that it make the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between. If there are potential problems they are just that - potential. I have yet to think, ďyou know what, we need a whistle in this situation.Ē Everybody, including the two most important ppl (snapper and Qb) have had zero problem understanding when the ball is ready for play.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 05:32:48 PM
All I know is that it make the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between. If there are potential problems they are just that - potential. I have yet to think, ďyou know what, we need a whistle in this situation.Ē Everybody, including the two most important ppl (snapper and Qb) have had zero problem understanding when the ball is ready for play.

Shouldn't the Defense (spread all over the place) enjoy the same opportunity?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2019, 05:33:36 PM
When I said ďeverybody,Ē I meant everybody. Defense included.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2019, 05:38:02 PM
The teams I am familiar with are not coaches to get ready when they hear a whistle. They are coached to get ready when their opponents line up against them. The defense is ready long before the offense is. They donít need a whistle. And as far as ďall over the place, everybody on the defensive side of the ball is within 15-20 yds of the LOS and facing the offense. To be sure, a quick snap will not catch them unaware.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 05:39:08 PM
All I know is that it make the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between. If there are potential problems they are just that - potential. I have yet to think, ďyou know what, we need a whistle in this situation.Ē Everybody, including the two most important ppl (snapper and Qb) have had zero problem understanding when the ball is ready for play.


Really, eliminating a standard, consistent RFPwhistle, "make(s) the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between." Shouldn't the Defense (spread all over the place) enjoy the same opportunity?

I thought the whole idea behind a quick, or "hurry-up" offense was to catch the Defense off guard thereby gaining a distinct advantage.  Defensive adjustments are frequently dispersed from the sideline in whatever delay there might be prior to the RFP.  Why not let EVERYONE know, at the same time, when that is?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2019, 05:43:04 PM
The teams I am familiar with are not coaches to get ready when they hear a whistle. They are coached to get ready when their opponents line up against them. The defense is ready long before the offense is. They donít need a whistle. And as far as ďall over the place, everybody on the defensive side of the ball is within 15-20 yds of the LOS and facing the offense. To be sure, a quick snap will not catch them unaware.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on November 07, 2019, 05:50:02 PM

Really, eliminating a standard, consistent RFPwhistle, "make(s) the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between." Shouldn't the Defense (spread all over the place) enjoy the same opportunity?
  Players on the field were/are seldom cognizant of the RFP.  It had almost no bearing on what they were doing.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2019, 08:10:00 PM

I thought the whole idea behind a quick, or "hurry-up" offense was to catch the Defense off guard thereby gaining a distinct advantage.  Defensive adjustments are frequently dispersed from the sideline in whatever delay there might be prior to the RFP.  Why not let EVERYONE know, at the same time, when that is?

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following your ?logic? here. Are you saying that the defense needs the whistle to know when to START dispersing adjustments? Or STOP dispersing adjustments? As to the delay prior to the ready for play, that's still built in to the process of getting the ball ready for play. It's determined by the speed and accuracy of the officials and has nothing to do with a whistle. We have been able to consistently get the ball ready for play within 10-12 seconds after the :40 starts. This consistency is what will help the defense "disperse" their adjustments in a timely manner. They can watch the clock, or the umpire, both, or neither. Once again, you have built a strawman defense for a problem that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: HLinNC on November 07, 2019, 08:14:10 PM
There is no logic here and continuing this debate will continue to devolve into the useless and mundane conversation on how football was better in the 50's.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 09:52:00 PM
There is no logic here and continuing this debate will continue to devolve into the useless and mundane conversation on how football was better in the 50's.

Actually, HLinNC, the discussion has little, if anything to do with "how football was played in the 50s", and a lot more to do with your inability to offer a cogent, or logical explanation for this largely innocuous change.  Evolution and change has been a pretty consistent, and positive path for the game of football, and will likely continue.

Hopefully those changes yet to come will result from serious thinking and solid reasoning capable of either improving the game or reducing problems creating unnecessary obstacles.  I'm still open to consider some logical, practical reason, or purpose justifying this adjustment.  Thus far I simply haven't heard one.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2019, 04:51:48 AM
The problem is not that valid reasons have not been given, but that you refuse to accept the valid reasons offered. I get it. You have a problem with the lack of a whistle to indicate first down. Let me help you move on with one of Ralphís classics: ďAl, BY RULE, we are not required to give a whistle to indicate the RFP after a first down inbounds.Ē Thatís validation enough.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 08, 2019, 05:51:13 AM
The problem is not that valid reasons have not been given, but that you refuse to accept the valid reasons offered. I get it. You have a problem with the lack of a whistle to indicate first down. Let me help you move on with one of Ralphís classics: ďAl, BY RULE, we are not required to give a whistle to indicate the RFP after a first down inbounds.Ē Thatís validation enough.


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I'll defer to Al here and will not agree that saying a rule change is beneficial simply because it's a rule change satisfactorily addresses the issue.  I've been in multiple games when the 1st down RFP "system" we're using now has been problematical.  That's a fact and is clear and obvious when one or both teams are running a hurry-up/no huddle offense.  Yes, the teams are getting it as the weeks move on, but we've still got some early snaps (before the silent wind) for "slower" R's and some quizzical looks back to the R from the same QB the next 1st down as he's wondering if the ball is ready yet.  The range of times I'm seeing vary from as little 4-5 seconds to 12-15 seconds (which is the ACTUAL timed delay from past years).  That IMHO is simply not workable or fair to an up tempo offense that from week to week is playing a game where the R's timing is different.   
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: markrischard on November 08, 2019, 07:49:44 AM
I see some sub-varsity referees blowing ready-for-play whistles in 40 second play clock situations and feel that is poor mechanics.  We have a new rule, and a new mechanic.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2019, 07:50:30 AM
.  The range of times I'm seeing vary from as little 4-5 seconds to 12-15 seconds (which is the ACTUAL timed delay from past years).  That IMHO is simply not workable or fair to an up tempo offense that from week to week is playing a game where the R's timing is different.
While this particular part is problematic, it has nothing to do with the whistle, but rather getting the ball RFP in a timely manner. Adding a whistle wouldnít fix this.



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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2019, 07:57:20 AM
Yes, the teams are getting it as the weeks move on, but we've still got some early snaps (before the silent wind) for "slower" R's and some quizzical looks back to the R from the same QB the next 1st down as he's wondering if the ball is ready yet.
This problem is easily fixed in two ways. #1- to avoid early snaps have the U stand over the ball until everybody is ready. #2-talk to the QB in pregame and tell him the ball is ready to snap when the U steps away. We do this every week. No problems yet. Still no need for a whistle.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 08, 2019, 08:25:19 AM
This problem is easily fixed in two ways. #1- to avoid early snaps have the U stand over the ball until everybody is ready. #2-talk to the QB in pregame and tell him the ball is ready to snap when the U steps away. We do this every week. No problems yet. Still no need for a whistle.

"Easily fixed", is much like "Beauty" alleged to be determined by, "(In) the eye of the beholder". Forgive me but neither of your solutions seems nearly as practical, convenient or effectively consistent as a simple, single audible whistle. 

What fuels your seemingly obstinate aversion to the continued (long, successful) application of our most recognized tool to continue identifying this universal, and simple, designation?   
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: PABJNR on November 08, 2019, 08:34:06 AM
The problem was the whistle was not consistent, there were different paces by different crews. While some crews may be a little faster getting the ball RFP, the amount of time between plays is now consistent. Itís 40 seconds.

Iíve had Teams snap the ball prior to the RFP the way we used to do it, I donít personally think a QB, when running hurry up late in a half or game was listening for a whistle, they were trying to get the ball snapped ASAP, what was the remedy then, have the U over the ball until the RFP.  The offense could immediately snap it as soon as it was blown. Now the U is in a bad spot as he is trying to back out.

The new rule states the ball is not RFP until U is in position which is much safer for the U.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 08, 2019, 08:56:03 AM
The problem was the whistle was not consistent, there were different paces by different crews. While some crews may be a little faster getting the ball RFP, the amount of time between plays is now consistent. Itís 40 seconds.

Iíve had Teams snap the ball prior to the RFP the way we used to do it, I donít personally think a QB, when running hurry up late in a half or game was listening for a whistle, they were trying to get the ball snapped ASAP, what was the remedy then, have the U over the ball until the RFP.  The offense could immediately snap it as soon as it was blown. Now the U is in a bad spot as he is trying to back out.

The new rule states the ball is not RFP until U is in position which is much safer for the U.

Alright, now we're just going from the ridiculous to the sublime.  It's really NOT that big a deal, and most of us handle "adapting" even to silliness pretty well.

For the record, most (successful) Umpires learn to master the challenges of existing in the midst of traffic, early on.  The isolated solution, is
NOT about "have the U over the ball until the RFP", as much as simply expecting the R, paying attention enough, To hold his whistle until the U is safely away (which has worked pretty well for a long, long time.)

Resisting change for resistance sake, is usually a really dumb idea, but no worse than advocating change, for purely change sake, or just because someone else is doing it.  On the other hand, "Change" that is carefully thought through, and is intended to provide a specific and identifiable benefit or improvement, or reduce or eliminate a problem is usually a good thing.
















 


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 08, 2019, 09:28:17 AM
The problem was the whistle was not consistent, there were different paces by different crews. While some crews may be a little faster getting the ball RFP, the amount of time between plays is now consistent. Itís 40 seconds.
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But the "problem" of the timing for the RFP has not changed one bit IMHO there are still different paces by different crews but now that's a bit invisible to the coaches, the players, the fans, and the common-taters since there is no whistle.  How did that improve anything?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Punter on November 08, 2019, 09:48:22 AM
When the game clock starts is immaterial.  The problem that was solved was the inconsistency of starting the play clock.  That is solved because the clock is set to 40 and starts after the previous play on a typical first down.  When the game clock starts really does not matter, but it should be started very quickly to keep the game moving along.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2019, 09:52:45 AM
"Easily fixed", is much like "Beauty" alleged to be determined by, "(In) the eye of the beholder". Forgive me but neither of your solutions seems nearly as practical, convenient or effectively consistent as a simple, single audible whistle. 

What fuels your seemingly obstinate aversion to the continued (long, successful) application of our most recognized tool to continue identifying this universal, and simple, designation?
I could change a couple words and ask you the same question


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 08, 2019, 11:06:48 AM
I could change a couple words and ask you the same question

I'd answer that all I was seeking was a logical reason, WHY, a simple, universally consistent means of effectively declaring the instant a significant change occurs in the readiness to play, that called attention to EVERYONE on both teams and game management that play would commence, at the same time (avoiding any sense of unilateral advantage) which had been successfully used for decades, would be changed to an alternative that is dependent on where each of 22 players may be focused, or temporarily distracted, and who may have a slightly different perspective of what they're looking for.

Sometimes, the quest for "One size fits all" simply doesn't apply to different levels of very similar applications, as anticipated or intended.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2019, 11:18:33 AM
I answered that we have given you and answer but you obstinately refuse to accept it.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: js in sc on November 08, 2019, 11:18:58 AM
I'd answer that all I was seeking was a logical reason, WHY, a simple, universally consistent means of effectively declaring the instant a significant change occurs in the readiness to play, that called attention to EVERYONE on both teams and game management that play would commence, at the same time (avoiding any sense of unilateral advantage) which had been successfully used for decades, would be changed to an alternative that is dependent on where each of 22 players may be focused, or temporarily distracted, and who may have a slightly different perspective of what they're looking for.

Sometimes, the quest for "One size fits all" simply doesn't apply to different levels of very similar applications, as anticipated or intended.
I would agree "one size fits all" does not always apply.  The B team or JV high school player, and some varsity players, do not have the same skill level or situational awareness as the NCAA or NFL player.  Many times they are having a hard enough time figuring out what they should do and are not paying attention to the position of the umpire.  The whistle just gives the teams a signal that they can begin.  It also focuses everyone else's attention to the play starting without having to watch whether "bubba" has moved far enough away from the ball to start.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 08, 2019, 12:26:18 PM
Do you think that same, audible notification might be useful to the Defensive team, should one or more of them be temporarily/momentarily distracted focusing elsewhere? What the simple sounding of a whistle does is alert everyone the ball is RFP at the same instant, preventing any unintentional, unearned advantages/disadvantages. 

Doing so worked really well, for a very long time without creating any problems or unnecessary confusion.

No because it's happening while I'm still getting the ball and returning it to the spot. The rule states the game clock starts when the ball is ready for play but most Rs will get it rolling a little earlier to help keep the game moving (at least outside the last two minutes of a half in a tight game). If they do truly wait until the U steps away every time there is even less need for a whistle because you can see ball is now ready as the U steps away. But I don't think it hurts to have one either.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 08, 2019, 12:36:48 PM
But the "problem" of the timing for the RFP has not changed one bit IMHO there are still different paces by different crews but now that's a bit invisible to the coaches, the players, the fans, and the common-taters since there is no whistle.  How did that improve anything?

The pace is probably more consistent but I agree there is still variability but that's because the actions after every play are different. What is consistent is how much time the offense has to snap the ball before they get a DOG. That is the primary intent of the 40-second play clock.

Someone pointed out there were times the ball was snapped before the R wound the game clock. That means the R wasn't ready for the pay yet so the U should not have stepped away. Too many people (somewhat due to poor communication from the NFHS) have this believe the goal is to get the ball down ASAP and the U step away as soon as it's placed. That was never the intent and wasn't part of our experiment which was the one that started this. You still go at the pace you should have been going (target RFP 12-15 seconds after dead ball). Sometimes the ball may be down well before that, but you don't step away until everyone is ready. That could be a little quicker than previously which is fine. But it's never been about how fast can the ball be placed and the U in position. I'm sorry so many of you were mislead on this by NFHS and  your local interpreter.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 08, 2019, 01:51:44 PM
I answered that we have given you and answer but you obstinately refuse to accept it.

Just a thought, but JUST MAYBE your answer, and those provided, weren't as clear, as convincing, persuading, as clearly explained or as potentially consistently deliverable as you intended, require or thought them to be.  Considering all the variables that have to line up (ball boys skills, LTG Chain movement, substitutions by either/both teams, unique unanticipated situations) does it sound reasonable that a finite, consistently recognizable declaration of the RFP might reduce the possibility of inconsistent, unanticipated confusion, better than expecting 22 teenagers to be consistently focusing, and interpreting the same specific behavior of the Umpire, many won't be anywhere near?

Blowing a whistle to affirm something  important just happened, seems a far more prudent, positive, inexpensive precaution to minimize unanticipated confusion than presuming EVERYBODY will ALWAYS be properly focused on exactly where they are supposed to be concentrating, at the right time.     
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 08, 2019, 02:07:29 PM
When the game clock starts is immaterial.  The problem that was solved was the inconsistency of starting the play clock.  That is solved because the clock is set to 40 and starts after the previous play on a typical first down.  When the game clock starts really does not matter, but it should be started very quickly to keep the game moving along.

it should be started when we're ready and the ball is actually ready for play that's what the rules require.  How does that not matter?  And "very quickly"?  "Saving" 4-5 seconds with a bogus 1st down wind saves a massive total of 1-2 minutes per game.  Who is playing the game, us or the two teams?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: scrounge on November 08, 2019, 04:54:37 PM
Just a thought, but JUST MAYBE your answer, and those provided, weren't as clear, as convincing, persuading, as clearly explained or as potentially consistently deliverable as you intended, require or thought them to be.  Considering all the variables that have to line up (ball boys skills, LTG Chain movement, substitutions by either/both teams, unique unanticipated situations) does it sound reasonable that a finite, consistently recognizable declaration of the RFP might reduce the possibility of inconsistent, unanticipated confusion, better than expecting 22 teenagers to be consistently focusing, and interpreting the same specific behavior of the Umpire, many won't be anywhere near?

Blowing a whistle to affirm something  important just happened, seems a far more prudent, positive, inexpensive precaution to minimize unanticipated confusion than presuming EVERYBODY will ALWAYS be properly focused on exactly where they are supposed to be concentrating, at the right time.   


I think this is where the kids would say "Ok, boomer"
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on November 08, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
I see some sub-varsity referees blowing ready-for-play whistles in 40 second play clock situations and feel that is poor mechanics.  We have a new rule, and a new mechanic.
Ohio is still using the 25 second RFP in all sub-varsity games.

1.  I'm pretty sure most coaches are not aware of this.

2.  It causes mistakes by the R going back-and-forth between the two systems.  Nothing major, just irritating.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 08, 2019, 10:55:08 PM

I think this is where the kids would say "Ok, boomer"

That may just be because they couldn't think of anything worthwhile to add to the discussion.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 09, 2019, 06:18:31 AM
Pots and kettles


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: VALJ on November 09, 2019, 01:39:30 PM
Al isnít going to be happy with any answer we give him.  Everyone else in this thread isnít going to be happy with Al not being happy with him not being happy with any answer.  In 48 states, the answer to the question ďwhy did we change the way we indicate the RFP?Ē is ďbecause thatís how we were told to do it.ď (Upon a momentís reflection, itís probably 49 states, actually.)

In New York, I humbly suggest to Al that this question would best be directed to the state interpreter.  What the other 48 states under Fed code have to say has no impact on what New York officials are told to do.

Weíve got three pages that amount to nothing more than  deadhorse: 
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Patrick E. on November 09, 2019, 10:32:41 PM

In New York, I humbly suggest to Al that this question would best be directed to the state interpreter.  What the other 48 states under Fed code have to say has no impact on what New York officials are told to do.


Geesh VALJ - what did I ever do to you??!!
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 10, 2019, 07:20:48 AM
Al isnít going to be happy with any answer we give him.  Everyone else in this thread isnít going to be happy with Al not being happy with him not being happy with any answer.  In 48 states, the answer to the question ďwhy did we change the way we indicate the RFP?Ē is ďbecause thatís how we were told to do it.ď (Upon a momentís reflection, itís probably 49 states, actually.)

In New York, I humbly suggest to Al that this question would best be directed to the state interpreter.  What the other 48 states under Fed code have to say has no impact on what New York officials are told to do.

Weíve got three pages that amount to nothing more than  deadhorse:

I'm really sorry to pester you VALJ, I just didn't see the necessity for the change, and thought someone (so much smarter) could explain it to me.  I was hoping for something just a little more explanatory than, "Because, I told you so", but I understand FULLY, and have long accepted that we enforce the rules, that OTHERS decide.

I actually feel for the poor dead horse, and wish someone could offer a practical, simple reason other than "Shut up and do as your told", which I don't have a serious problem with, and have done so, many times before.  Just thought someone might explain why.  I guess you're not the one, no surprise, and not a big deal.

I've learned that understanding, WHY a rule was made(added/changed) was the BEST way to remember consistently enforcing it, and/or explaining it when questioned about it.  It really saves a lot of empty guessing, and bluffing when asked.  You should try it sometime. 
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 10, 2019, 09:29:57 AM
Just a thought, but JUST MAYBE your answer, and those provided, weren't as clear, as convincing, persuading, as clearly explained or as potentially consistently deliverable as you intended, require or thought them to be.  Considering all the variables that have to line up (ball boys skills, LTG Chain movement, substitutions by either/both teams, unique unanticipated situations) does it sound reasonable that a finite, consistently recognizable declaration of the RFP might reduce the possibility of inconsistent, unanticipated confusion, better than expecting 22 teenagers to be consistently focusing, and interpreting the same specific behavior of the Umpire, many won't be anywhere near?

Blowing a whistle to affirm something  important just happened, seems a far more prudent, positive, inexpensive precaution to minimize unanticipated confusion than presuming EVERYBODY will ALWAYS be properly focused on exactly where they are supposed to be concentrating, at the right time.     

It seems to be clear, convincing, persuasive to almost everyone else but you. If you are resistant to the new rule you will be very resistant to suggestions to change. I get that. But your failure to recognize these explanations is clouded by this predisposition.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 10, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
It seems to be clear, convincing, persuasive to almost everyone else but you. If you are resistant to the new rule you will be very resistant to suggestions to change. I get that. But your failure to recognize these explanations is clouded by this predisposition.

I'd really prefer allowing this long dead horse rest in peace.  The question HASN"T been about the rule, that's been "clear" from it's announcement. It was about the reason (logic) for changing the RFP signal from audible (whistle) to silent.  I don't recall, in any of these responses, any effort, much less actual reason, to try and suggest a reason, benefit, logic or explanation for why THAT change was incorporated.

I don't consider myself resistant to any new (or changed) rule, but when I understand WHY the specific change was included, it makes accepting it, and where necessary explaining it, if/when questioned about it, that much easier.  If you have NOTHING to offer, fine, if that's all you have, it is what it is.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 10, 2019, 01:30:08 PM
Hereís a great reason for the :40 and the lack of a whistle after a first down:

 ďEnsures a consistent interval between plays independent of officialsí making the ball ready for play and refereesí intervals for blowing RFP. Teams will not need to adapt their pace to different officiating crewsĒ


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: PABJNR on November 10, 2019, 02:38:48 PM
I believe someone noted previously that the reasoning is when there is no whistle is so the O knows itís a 40 with no whistle if and when they hear a whistle they know 25. If you blow a whistle every time with no visible clicks there would be confusion as to if itís a 40 or 25.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 10, 2019, 03:25:26 PM
I believe someone noted previously that the reasoning is when there is no whistle is so the O knows itís a 40 with no whistle if and when they hear a whistle they know 25. If you blow a whistle every time with no visible clicks there would be confusion as to if itís a 40 or 25.


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This is another great, logical reason.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on November 10, 2019, 06:26:17 PM
 The only player on O that pays any any attention to the play clock is the QB, and he doesn't care if it's 25 or 40.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: PABJNR on November 10, 2019, 07:04:07 PM
Give 25 once instead of 40 and let me know how that goes.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 11, 2019, 09:08:32 AM
Hereís a great reason for the :40 and the lack of a whistle after a first down:

 ďEnsures a consistent interval between plays independent of officialsí making the ball ready for play and refereesí intervals for blowing RFP. Teams will not need to adapt their pace to different officiating crewsĒ


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Except that multiple posters on this thread are advocates of the "shave a few seconds when it doesn't matter" party and then keeping the "consistent interval between plays" means we're shaving when it does matter.  Have seen this twice in the last three weeks in games where the winning team in a 2 point game is kneeling on 3rd down to end the game and the R has been shaving all game long. But, he was very careful to "ensure a consistent interval between plays".  Sorry, but were out there to officiate a game between 2 teams, not to insert ourselves into the game by making the overall duration of the game 5-10 minutes shorter.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: ilyazhito on November 11, 2019, 10:06:32 AM
That is why I advocate following the rule as written and wait for the ball to be spotted before the game clock starts. Maybe it is just me being autistic, but I would rather follow the rule, and be supported in a difficult situation, than follow a cowboy interpretation of said rule that might land me in hot water if things go sideways.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 11, 2019, 10:46:46 AM
I believe someone noted previously that the reasoning is when there is no whistle is so the O knows itís a 40 with no whistle if and when they hear a whistle they know 25. If you blow a whistle every time with no visible clicks there would be confusion as to if itís a 40 or 25.

Perhaps, I haven't stated my concerns clearly, allow me to try again.  I'm not suggesting whistles are necessary at "40 seconds", that event seems clear enough on it's own (a previous play ends inbounds, a pass or kick ends in/or OOB).  Thereafter we have provided a consistent alert (Referee's whistle) when the shorter 25 second RFP interval began, which momentarily provided a notice that alerted EVERYONE to a specific reduced time interval.

The current alert, to reaching that reduced time interval, is set by who may be watching the movements of the Umpire and the placement of the ball, which may often conflict with, or be distracted by, Coaching instructions, player discussions or other distractions, that were previously overcome by a specific, and unique audible Referee RFP whistle.

Despite DECADES of availability, only a percentage (far short of universal) of playing fields (servicing INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS) include visible 25 second play clocks, and there is NO assurance that the installation and/or conversion to add 40 second play clock capabilities will happen any faster.  As with the adoption of 25 second  field play clocks, manual signals being adopted by field officials are suggested to help with recognition, until the availability of visible 40 second clocks become universal, which considering the deployment history of 25 second clocks, may likely take DECADES.

At the NCAA and NFL levels, where the 40 second interval was initiated, the presence of visible play clocks supporting that process  is ESSENTIALLY UNIVERSAL.

Presuming there still may be a practical value to INSURING everybody on both teams is (gently) reminded that the ball has been rendered RFP, continuing the ages old practice of a "Referee's whistle" seemed logical and universally consistent (at least until visible play clocks and/or some new technology rendering them unnecessary replaces them).

   
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: VALJ on November 11, 2019, 10:49:01 AM
 deadhorse:
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 11, 2019, 03:14:46 PM
Except that multiple posters on this thread are advocates of the "shave a few seconds when it doesn't matter" party and then keeping the "consistent interval between plays" means we're shaving when it does matter.  Have seen this twice in the last three weeks in games where the winning team in a 2 point game is kneeling on 3rd down to end the game and the R has been shaving all game long. But, he was very careful to "ensure a consistent interval between plays".  Sorry, but were out there to officiate a game between 2 teams, not to insert ourselves into the game by making the overall duration of the game 5-10 minutes shorter.

The consistent interval is from dead ball to DOG and not dead ball to RFP. The latter probably also happens to improve with the 40-second clock but there will always be variability like there was before. But it doesn't matter if the ball was ready at 34 or 25, the offense still has 40 seconds from the previous play to snap before they get a DOG. That's why all this crazy running around to get the ball spotted ASAP and step away immediately doesn't fit with the intent. Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 11, 2019, 03:31:27 PM
deadhorse:
Agree. This is my last post on this topic. Originally I was against all things :40. Now Iím for all things :40. I donít care why.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on November 11, 2019, 09:42:56 PM
Give 25 once instead of 40 and let me know how that goes.


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Actually we put 25 on the clock multiple times every game.  Hasn't been a problem so far.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 12, 2019, 07:38:01 AM
The consistent interval is from dead ball to DOG and not dead ball to RFP. The latter probably also happens to improve with the 40-second clock but there will always be variability like there was before. But it doesn't matter if the ball was ready at 34 or 25, the offense still has 40 seconds from the previous play to snap before they get a DOG. That's why all this crazy running around to get the ball spotted ASAP and step away immediately doesn't fit with the intent. Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it.

Yes, let's do just that, following a 1st down inbounds "Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it."  Then, as the rules state we're RFP and we can then wind the game clock.  And let's be efficient and consistent in doing that so both teams know exactly what to expect at all times during the game.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 13, 2019, 10:26:56 AM
Yes, let's do just that, following a 1st down inbounds "Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it."  Then, as the rules state we're RFP and we can then wind the game clock.  And let's be efficient and consistent in doing that so both teams know exactly what to expect at all times during the game.

That's what we do with the exception of starting the game clock a little quicker if time isn't critical. It's a very commonly accepted practice at every level now. It doesn't affect the teams at all as they aren't paying attention to the game clock at that point. They just need to know when the ball is ready for play and they can see that by the U stepping away. The game clock starts at the snap without a whistle as well. The only one possibly affected by the lack of a whistle is a game clock operator not paying attention to the R. Our R occasionally wears out his rotator cuff starting the game clock when the ECO isn't paying attention.

Maybe we have found the source of the concern here. Alf has probably missed several starts of the game clock because he's conditioned to do it from the whistle. It has no impact whatsoever on the coaches or players.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: markrischard on November 13, 2019, 12:10:44 PM
That is why I advocate following the rule as written and wait for the ball to be spotted before the game clock starts. Maybe it is just me being autistic, but I would rather follow the rule, and be supported in a difficult situation, than follow a cowboy interpretation of said rule that might land me in hot water if things go sideways.
Retweet.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 13, 2019, 01:54:58 PM
That's what we do with the exception of starting the game clock a little quicker if time isn't critical. It's a very commonly accepted practice at every level now. It doesn't affect the teams at all as they aren't paying attention to the game clock at that point. They just need to know when the ball is ready for play and they can see that by the U stepping away. The game clock starts at the snap without a whistle as well. The only one possibly affected by the lack of a whistle is a game clock operator not paying attention to the R. Our R occasionally wears out his rotator cuff starting the game clock when the ECO isn't paying attention.

Maybe we have found the source of the concern here. Alf has probably missed several starts of the game clock because he's conditioned to do it from the whistle. It has no impact whatsoever on the coaches or players.

Except as we get into the 2nd half of the 2nd and 4th quarters, not just the last 2 minutes, it almost always impacts 1 team more than the other.  Just follow the rule, it's pretty simple.  Ball on the ground, U back, it's RFP, wind the clock.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: ilyazhito on November 13, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
In that case, for consistency's sake, we shouldn't shave time at all. Start the game clock when the ball is spotted.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 14, 2019, 02:00:29 AM
Except as we get into the 2nd half of the 2nd and 4th quarters, not just the last 2 minutes, it almost always impacts 1 team more than the other.  Just follow the rule, it's pretty simple.  Ball on the ground, U back, it's RFP, wind the clock.

That would be fine. A lot will depend on score as well. If it's the second half and it's a 3-4 score game with 5 minutes left you probably don't implement pure timing rules unless the losing team is trying to get a score inside the last minute or two.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 14, 2019, 02:03:31 AM
In that case, for consistency's sake, we shouldn't shave time at all. Start the game clock when the ball is spotted.

I feel like a broken record. The consistency is dead ball to DOG. The ball will be spotted and ready for play (2 separate acts separated by time). If you are going to follow the rule you don't start the game clock when the ball is spotted. You start it when it's ready for play as indicated by the U stepping away from the ball. If the crew isn't ready (including at least the box or back stake) you shouldn't step away away.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 14, 2019, 06:31:23 AM
I feel like a broken record. The consistency is dead ball to DOG.

Not so, IMO you're missing the point.  The consistency between dead ball and DOG is now BY RULE not a variable - it's out of our hands, it's built into the 40 second play clock mechanics.  The consistency that we need to work on that is very inconsistent from crew to crew and is within our control is the time between the dead ball and RFP based on what I'm seeing this season.  We should be striving to hit the goal of having the ball ready between 10-12 seconds on every play, not just 1st downs.  That 10-12 second time is where the whole 40 second play clock came from to begin with.  That was very clear when the 40 second play clock was initiated in that other rule book.  If the ball is actually RFP before that fine, it's a shorter time, but in any case it should not be a shorter time if the ball is not RFP.  The only exception to that should be late in a non-competitive game when it very clear what the outcome is going to be.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 14, 2019, 07:25:20 AM
IMO, this inconsistency ďproblemĒ is only a problem on this message board. Iíve not experienced one complaint this year over this ďproblem.Ē Iíve also talked with at least 10 WHís in our area and they have not had a consistency complaint either. I realize thatís a small test audience, but I really believe this is a problem in the technical minds of those of us nitpicking the rules/mechanics than actually hindering or affecting the outcome of the game on Friday night.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 14, 2019, 07:29:05 AM
FWIW, you would be amazed at how ďconsistentĒ the down box guys are on Any given Friday night. If heís slow in the first quarter, heís gonna be slow all night. Once we get into a rhythm, both teams seem to adapt just fine. Same way with my U. Heís the same speed all night long. 


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 14, 2019, 08:30:50 AM
By far, the most critical aspect of consistency in the game is the PCO. Some start the PC immediately when the ball becomes dead, others wait for the suggested "3 seconds" Talk about inconsistency. He alone can shave off (or add to) 9-12 seconds on every series...
Which wouldn't matter during the course of a blowout or in the middle of a game, but would be tremendously impactful as the game is winding down
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 14, 2019, 08:54:46 PM
Not so, IMO you're missing the point.  The consistency between dead ball and DOG is now BY RULE not a variable - it's out of our hands, it's built into the 40 second play clock mechanics.  The consistency that we need to work on that is very inconsistent from crew to crew and is within our control is the time between the dead ball and RFP based on what I'm seeing this season.  We should be striving to hit the goal of having the ball ready between 10-12 seconds on every play, not just 1st downs.  That 10-12 second time is where the whole 40 second play clock came from to begin with.  That was very clear when the 40 second play clock was initiated in that other rule book.  If the ball is actually RFP before that fine, it's a shorter time, but in any case it should not be a shorter time if the ball is not RFP.  The only exception to that should be late in a non-competitive game when it very clear what the outcome is going to be.

The well documented mechanic under the 25-second play clock stated the ball should be marked RFP 12-15 seconds after the ball becomes dead. If you were a consistent crew you were probably in that range 75% of the time. But the other 25% were either faster or slower. Now it doesn't matter if the ball is ready for play at 4 seconds or 15 seconds, the offense still has 40 seconds from the end of the previous down to snap the ball.

Yes, there are some crews that were often much closer than the 12-15 seconds most of the time. This was a huge change in pace for them. For most good crews though that part of it should have been little or change at all other than the U controlling RFP when he stepped away rather than the R blowing a whistle.

This is my third time through this (NCAA, HS experiment, HS overall) and the first two times there was similar perceptions we need to go really fast. The other two realized before the season really got going that wasn't the case. This implementation still has this misconception in many parts of the country.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 17, 2019, 07:10:51 AM
Now it doesn't matter if the ball is ready for play at 4 seconds or 15 seconds, the offense still has 40 seconds from the end of the previous down to snap the ball.

Again, it really does matter.  Matters a lot if you're the trailing team in a 1 score game and are playing defense.  That's a 10 or 11 second difference in REAL GAME CLOCK TIME.  If A had gotten 3 1st downs before they had to punt that's a 30 second differential.  That does matter.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 17, 2019, 11:05:38 PM
Again, it really does matter.  Matters a lot if you're the trailing team in a 1 score game and are playing defense.  That's a 10 or 11 second difference in REAL GAME CLOCK TIME.  If A had gotten 3 1st downs before they had to punt that's a 30 second differential.  That does matter.

That's no different than the 25-second play clock. You were instructed to start it 3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted. The U can hold up 3-5 seconds after the ball is spotted as well. If they get a first down on a dive up the middle at the feet of the U, the ball could be spotted very quickly. If there was a long gain it may take closer to 15 seconds to get the ball rotated in. Most of the time it will be 8-12 seconds but it will vary. It definitely shouldn't be 30-40 seconds like some really slow crews used to do under the 25-second play clock.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 18, 2019, 09:35:02 AM
That's no different than the 25-second play clock. You were instructed to start it 3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted.

That's fine as long as we're winding the clock "3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted".  Still seeing some R's whose only delay is to give the 1st down signal and then immediately wind without ever looking toward the U. 
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 18, 2019, 09:38:51 PM
That's fine as long as we're winding the clock "3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted".  Still seeing some R's whose only delay is to give the 1st down signal and then immediately wind without ever looking toward the U. 

Outside the last few minutes of a half where time is critical you can start it sooner. But when time gets more critical at the end of a half you should follow the rule book more specifically. Wind the game clock when the ball is actually ready for play (when the U steps away).
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: brettjr2005 on November 18, 2019, 09:57:05 PM
People are losing sight of the fact that the clock stoppage is to allow the retirement home chain crew workers to move, not to stop the clock until we can get the ball RFP. If it were the latter, the clock would stop on every single play until the RFP. I look forward to NFHS no longer stopping the clock on 1st downs to stay consistent with every other down.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 19, 2019, 05:50:33 AM
People are losing sight of the fact that the clock stoppage is to allow the retirement home chain crew workers to move, not to stop the clock until we can get the ball RFP. If it were the latter, the clock would stop on every single play until the RFP. I look forward to NFHS no longer stopping the clock on 1st downs to stay consistent with every other down.

Incorrect - Both the NFHS and MIAA (Massachusetts) have posted written guidance that is very clear on this.  The clock is stopped to allow the R to clearly indicate that A has achieved a 1st down and is restarted by rule when the U has spotted the ball and it is actually RFP.  That same guidance also clearly states that the chain crew is not the basis for stopping or starting the clock and if needed to prevent undue delay in a hurry-up situation we can simply drop a bean bag at the new spot.  That guidance has also stated that the "off time" is expected to be in the 10-12 second range so that the RFP (the silent wind) is given before 25 seconds is reached on the 40 second play clock.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 19, 2019, 09:03:57 AM
That's fine as long as we're winding the clock "3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted".  Still seeing some R's whose only delay is to give the 1st down signal and then immediately wind without ever looking toward the U.

While we are beating this dead horse to death, let me suggest that the "3-5 second interval after the ball is spotted" is usually more than enough time to allow the down box guy to set it down at the new spot. If it takes 8 seconds for the U to get it and spot it, that would be 11-15 seconds for the down box guy to get into position. Our experience has been much quicker than that.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: brettjr2005 on November 19, 2019, 09:32:23 AM
Incorrect - Both the NFHS and MIAA (Massachusetts) have posted written guidance that is very clear on this.  The clock is stopped to allow the R to clearly indicate that A has achieved a 1st down and is restarted by rule when the U has spotted the ball and it is actually RFP.  That same guidance also clearly states that the chain crew is not the basis for stopping or starting the clock and if needed to prevent undue delay in a hurry-up situation we can simply drop a bean bag at the new spot.  That guidance has also stated that the "off time" is expected to be in the 10-12 second range so that the RFP (the silent wind) is given before 25 seconds is reached on the 40 second play clock.
That's more of an explanation of how we're supposed to do it than a "why," imo. The only possible "why" there is to confirm and signal first down, in which case you could just point and immediately wind like others have suggested here and still accomplish that. I'm also aware of the bean bag, which is why I say don't stop the clock at all and just drop a bag if the chains are out for a Sunday stroll.

As we can see by this 6 page and counting discussion, the only real point of contention left with this 25/40 change (other than Al's whistle desires) is when to wind for a first down. Remove the clock stoppage and you remove the contention.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 19, 2019, 12:08:54 PM
As we can see by this 6 page and counting discussion, the only real point of contention left with this 25/40 change (other than Al's whistle desires) is when to wind for a first down. Remove the clock stoppage and you remove the contention.

Calling audible attention to the RFP, is NOT a "make or break" point, but it has worked reasonably well, without any obvious drawbacks, for 100+years to avoid confusion, contention or potential argument about "announcing" the precise instant RFP happens, so EVERYONE (players coaches  & game officials) are notified at the same moment (regardless of where their immediate focus may have been diverted).

I was simply hoping YOU, or anybody else could express a meaningful benefit, improvement or purpose, created by specifically eliminating the audible confirmation. 

Sometimes, otherwise innocuous additional, "ounces of prevention" are more appropriate and helpful in avoiding unnecessary confusion, at different skill and maturity levels. Either way, we'll all eventually adjust and "the beat will go on".


Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 19, 2019, 03:56:11 PM
As we can see by this 6 page and counting discussion, the only real point of contention left with this 25/40 change (other than Al's whistle desires) is when to wind for a first down. Remove the clock stoppage and you remove the contention.

Since when is a written directive directly from the rules source a point of contention?  The documents that are attached to my earlier post were available from the NFHS and MIAA websites respectively in early June, so not sure why apparently so few officials actually read them.

If we "don't like" the way we have been instructed to implement it based on the rules, then we can simply follow the procedures using the proper channels and request a rule(s) change, or alternately an updated guidance document.  That could include Al's request that we put the "audible RFP" back in?   ;D
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 19, 2019, 04:22:51 PM
I think everybody except Al has adapted to this change and moved on. I havenít heard of a problem with the lack of a whistle.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 19, 2019, 06:50:41 PM
I think everybody except Al has adapted to this change and moved on. I havenít heard of a problem with the lack of a whistle.

I've adapted and comfortably moved on, but the ACTUAL question has always been (and unfortunately remains) what, if anything, was gained, improved or simplified by removing that simple whistle to clarify to EVERYONE AT THE SAME MOMENT,  that the ball was again declared RFP.

Maybe "Change, purely for change sake" isn't really any better (practical, rational) than resisting change, "because we've always done it that way".
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on November 20, 2019, 06:49:49 AM
If you read the NFHS Clock Operators instructions it repeatedly says the play clock shall start "immediately."   Immediately does not mean instantaneously, but it doesn't mean 3 seconds later either.  So I'm not real sure where that comes from. 

Like some others, I do not agree with the idea that we should cheat on time the whole game except in the last two minutes when coaches are paying attention to the clock and then we should go by the rules. 



Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 20, 2019, 06:54:19 AM
I agree. The mechanic used in the first quarter should be the same mechanic used in the fourth whether the game is on the line or not.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: bama_stripes on November 20, 2019, 07:11:06 AM
With this thread in mind, I made it a point in my (mismatch) game last Friday to look at the play clock whenever I had a silent wind.  It was consistently at 30 seconds.

DISCLAIMER:  I was working with one of the best Uís in the state, and both teams had capable ball boys.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 20, 2019, 07:32:17 AM
If you read the NFHS Clock Operators instructions it repeatedly says the play clock shall start "immediately."   Immediately does not mean instantaneously, but it doesn't mean 3 seconds later either.  So I'm not real sure where that comes from. 

I love selective readers.  Each time the word immediately is used it is coupled with the term "40 second play clock".  Last time I checked that's not the same as the game clock.

"The Team A (offense) runner is stopped inbounds beyond the line-to-gain (first down). The game clock is stopped for the first down and the 40-second play clock is started immediately. The referee will then restart (wind) the game clock (no whistle involved) as quickly as the football is placed on the ground and ready for play."
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 20, 2019, 08:14:39 AM
ďThis is the song that never ends, it just goes on and on my friend...Ē
Iím still trying to find the problem this thread was intended to solve.

Seriously, the issue seems to revolve around the proper time to restart the game clock after a first down. Some say just as soon as possible, without regard for whether the ball is ready for play or not. I disagree with that. Some say just as soon as the umpire has set it down and moved away, and I agree that's the technical application of the rule. Others (myself included) seem to think the best mechanic is to wait until the down box is down. This may burn a couple of seconds, but to me making sure the LOS is established makes good sense. If we need to couple that with holding the U until that's accomplished, then I'm all for that. After all, there's nothing in the rules that say the R can't hold the U until he's sure the ball is ready for play, is there?

Regardless, I think it's a mountain/molehill issue. Practically speaking, there is at most a 2 second delay between the two actions we are contending about. I tried to pay closer attention Friday night to when the two actions happened, and found no discernible difference between the time the ball was down, the teams were ready, and the down box was set. If anybody has any horror stories about a train wreck in this case I would love to hear from you.

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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 20, 2019, 08:40:45 AM
Iím still trying to find the problem this thread was intended to solve.
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The thread was started just after I participated in 2 varsity games in a 2 week period where the R was winding the clock on 1st downs in most cases before the ball was even on the ground, in all cases well before it was ready for play.  In BOTH of those games the clock ran out while in possession of the team that was trailing (2 point differential in both games) while the team was approaching field goal range.

That led me to ask how is this happening when both the NFHS and MIAA had posted multiple guidance documents on how the "new" timing was to be administered.  I was quite surprised that we now have 6 pages of replies to my original post and until I posted those guidance documents (which were originally posted as part of the 2019 rules changes back in June) that there was not a single post pointing out the fact that NFHS and MIAA have clearly told us how to do this.  That's the problem. 
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on November 20, 2019, 09:08:18 AM
I love selective readers.  Each time the word immediately is used it is coupled with the term "40 second play clock".  Last time I checked that's not the same as the game clock.

"The Team A (offense) runner is stopped inbounds beyond the line-to-gain (first down). The game clock is stopped for the first down and the 40-second play clock is started immediately.
  Yes, exactly.  That is one of the things being discussed, how quickly the play clock is supposed to start each play.  That is clearly what I was referring to.  So we agree on that point. 

I'm not sure what your snide comment is about.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 20, 2019, 09:21:20 AM
The thread was started just after I participated in 2 varsity games in a 2 week period where the R was winding the clock on 1st downs in most cases before the ball was even on the ground, in all cases well before it was ready for play.  In BOTH of those games the clock ran out while in possession of the team that was trailing (2 point differential in both games) while the team was approaching field goal range.

That led me to ask how is this happening when both the NFHS and MIAA had posted multiple guidance documents on how the "new" timing was to be administered.  I was quite surprised that we now have 6 pages of replies to my original post and until I posted those guidance documents (which were originally posted as part of the 2019 rules changes back in June) that there was not a single post pointing out the fact that NFHS and MIAA have clearly told us how to do this.  That's the problem.

Gotcha. That may be the problem. This seems to be a Massachusetts problem, as the MIAA document only applies to that state. As noted below, each state is free to adapt official interpretations of the rules and go by those. Clearly, this particular topic is not interpreted the same way in every state. In my state, at least in my officiating association, we have been clearly instructed to wind the clock once the back stake has been set. As I've mentioned in previous posts, this mechanic has proven to be well-accepted by the teams in our area. To my knowledge, we have had zero concerns or complaints from the coaches about this method.

Each state high school association adopting these rules is the sole and exclusive source of binding rules interpretations for contests involving its member schools. Any person having questions about the interpretation of NFHS rules should contact the rules interpreter designated by his or her state high school association. 
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 20, 2019, 10:40:19 AM
  Yes, exactly.  That is one of the things being discussed, how quickly the play clock is supposed to start each play.  That is clearly what I was referring to.  So we agree on that point. 

I'm not sure what your snide comment is about.

We've been discussing when to wind the game clock after Team A has gained a first down for the entire thread, the wind only applies to the game clock.  I don't believe that there is any disagreement regarding the fact that we start the play clock when the ball becomes dead on the previous play - that's a given.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 20, 2019, 11:22:59 AM
Gotcha. That may be the problem. This seems to be a Massachusetts problem, as the MIAA document only applies to that state. As noted below, each state is free to adapt official interpretations of the rules and go by those. Clearly, this particular topic is not interpreted the same way in every state. In my state, at least in my officiating association, we have been clearly instructed to wind the clock once the back stake has been set. As I've mentioned in previous posts, this mechanic has proven to be well-accepted by the teams in our area. To my knowledge, we have had zero concerns or complaints from the coaches about this method.

Each state high school association adopting these rules is the sole and exclusive source of binding rules interpretations for contests involving its member schools. Any person having questions about the interpretation of NFHS rules should contact the rules interpreter designated by his or her state high school association. 
Edit: we have been instructed to wind the game clock when the DOWN BOX has been set. Not the back stake.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 20, 2019, 12:47:59 PM
Edit: we have been instructed to wind the game clock when the DOWN BOX has been set. Not the back stake.

Just a suggestion, and apologies to the long dead horse, but wouldn't those decisions be better left to the judgment & wisdom of the REFEREE,(as well as all the potential additional situations covered bt NFHS 3-5 and suggested by the 2019 adjustment to 3-6-1-b-1) and be far more precise,  consistent and universally recognizable to EVERYONE participating, if triggered by the REFEREE'S confirming signal (combination audible(whistle)/visible (wind)) that's worked pretty well and has been effectively understood for generations?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 20, 2019, 01:14:11 PM
Nope. The best thing to do is carry out the wishes of my assignor. He is the one who decides IF I have a game, WHICH game I have and HOW MANY games I have. If he wants a silent wind when the down box is set, thatís what he gets.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 22, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Our guys treat the wind now as they did in a previous life, when the ball has been spotted and ready for play. If the play clock has drifted under 25", we reset the play clock to 25" then wind the game clock and let the action begin. Being on sidelines @ D-I, I've noticed R cranking an OOB while the ball is being thrown in. He seems to follow the same mechanic when a new series occurs inbounds. Do any of you  guys that do NCAA know if that is considered proper procedure ?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: dammitbobby on November 22, 2019, 03:16:55 PM
Nope. The best thing to do is carry out the wishes of my assignor. He is the one who decides IF I have a game, WHICH game I have and HOW MANY games I have. If he wants a silent wind when the down box is set, thatís what he gets.


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Although a completely separate issue, and one for which I have no remedy, that is jacked up. Game assigners shouldn't have that kind of control over who gets, and does not get, games because they happen to not like a particular person or mechanic they use (which is also separate, and largely correctable, but shouldn't be held over individuals in terms of not getting assignments at all.)  Games should be assigned by experience and maybe some kind of seniority, not a popularity/kool kids club.

Is that the way it's always been?  Probably. 
Will it ever change?  Probably not. 
Does that make it right?  No.
It is what it is.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: js in sc on November 22, 2019, 03:22:48 PM
Although a completely separate issue, and one for which I have no remedy, that is jacked up. Game assigners shouldn't have that kind of control over who gets, and does not get, games because they happen to not like a particular person or mechanic they use (which is also separate, and largely correctable, but shouldn't be held over individuals in terms of not getting assignments at all.)  Games should be assigned by experience and maybe some kind of seniority, not a popularity/kool kids club.

Is that the way it's always been?  Probably. 
Will it ever change?  Probably not. 
Does that make it right?  No.
It is what it is.
In the South we call that the "Good Ole Boy" mechanic.  Yes, it is what it is.  It remains alive, well, and thriving.  We may not like it but that is the way it has been, is, and will be..
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on November 26, 2019, 10:02:17 AM
Our guys treat the wind now as they did in a previous life, when the ball has been spotted and ready for play. If the play clock has drifted under 25", we reset the play clock to 25" then wind the game clock and let the action begin. Being on sidelines @ D-I, I've noticed R cranking an OOB while the ball is being thrown in. He seems to follow the same mechanic when a new series occurs inbounds. Do any of you  guys that do NCAA know if that is considered proper procedure ?

This is the perfectly acceptable and taught mechanic at the NCAA level and for the most part similar to what most states have done at the HS level. The rate of winding isn't quite as fast. In most NCAA conferences they want the game clock going by 34/35. The standard in NFHS I've heard has generally been 30-32. I'm fine with that. If you want to stick hard by the rule and wait until it's actually ready for play I'm OK with that. You are only shaving a handful of seconds each first down so it's not going to have a major impact on the overall length of the game. There may be 30 first downs on average during a game and some of those will have ended OOB and wouldn't apply. Some will also result in scores. I would say 15-20 times you may be cutting 3-5 seconds. The impact to the length of the game is maybe 1-2 minutes.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 26, 2019, 10:33:22 AM
We had a great game this Friday night. Spun it when the down box was set. Was done and in the car @ 8:58. One hour and 58 minute. Probably could have been one hour and 55 if we hadnít waited on the down box.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 26, 2019, 01:03:26 PM
We had a great game this Friday night. Spun it when the down box was set. Was done and in the car @ 8:58. One hour and 58 minute. Probably could have been one hour and 55 if we hadnít waited on the down box.

Reminds me of an old "Salesman Lesson"; After being criticized for not making ENOUGH sales calls, a salesman led his team the next cycle in volume of calls made.  His manager was happy, and wondered what changed.  The salesman said his focus simply changed, and suggested he could do even better and increase the call volume even more, if only his customers and prospects stopped asking him all those annoying questions about what he was selling and why they should buy his products."

What would you have done with, or what would be the significant benefit of those extra 3 minutes you might have shaved off your game?  Avoiding wasted time and/or achieving better, more consistent "game flow" are both valid objectives, but at what possible cost to (that particular AND UNIQUE) game you're working?  If next week's game has a little slower Chain Crew, or slightly less competent Ball Boys, and somehow the overall time (God forbid) drifts over 2hrs (or whatever the "magic" number becomes), is your crews performance irrevocably tainted?

Your game is YOUR game, does it really matter how it compares, time wise, to another game across town, across the State or across the Nation, presuming it was as well managed and well run as it's, always UNIQUE circumstances, allowed ?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 26, 2019, 01:17:52 PM
Lol. If a butterfly flaps his (or her) wings in Africa, does that trigger a tsunami in Indonesia?


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 27, 2019, 10:24:50 AM
I tend to find the "game time" references totally irrelevant to the what, why, and how we do things.  The real variables that directly impact the length of all games are:

1.  Total points scored
2.  Total flags thrown
3.  Total number of runs ending out of bounds
4.  Total number of INC forward passes
5.  Total number of team TO's used in the game
6.  Total number of clock stoppages for injured players.
7.  etc.

Considering "saving" a few seconds on a 1st down RFP IMHO is tilting at windmills and serves no real purpose other than having videos that the losing team coach sent in following a 22-20 game where the clock ran out with his team approaching field goal range and the R has been winding on 1st downs like he's running late for something.  Not a good look when A is at the line ready to go following a 1st down, and the clock "runs out" with the U still holding the ball.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on December 02, 2019, 01:23:52 PM
I tend to find the "game time" references totally irrelevant to the what, why, and how we do things.  The real variables that directly impact the length of all games are:

1.  Total points scored
2.  Total flags thrown
3.  Total number of runs ending out of bounds
4.  Total number of INC forward passes
5.  Total number of team TO's used in the game
6.  Total number of clock stoppages for injured players.
7.  etc.

Considering "saving" a few seconds on a 1st down RFP IMHO is tilting at windmills and serves no real purpose other than having videos that the losing team coach sent in following a 22-20 game where the clock ran out with his team approaching field goal range and the R has been winding on 1st downs like he's running late for something.  Not a good look when A is at the line ready to go following a 1st down, and the clock "runs out" with the U still holding the ball.

You don't do that when time is critical at the end of a half. Then you follow the rule very specifically. I'm not sure if there is a hard and fast rule for when you do that but the referee should have a good feel for when to do that in a game.

I have no problem if a crew wants to follow the rule closely throughout a game but for efficiency purposes doing it a little early is not a bad thing and fairly normal. It doesn't have a huge impact overall on the length of the game.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on December 02, 2019, 03:57:01 PM
You don't do that when time is critical at the end of a half. Then you follow the rule very specifically. ...
  As part of our game management, we try to apply the rules correctly and use proper mechanics all of the time, not just when people are paying attention.

Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: PABJNR on December 02, 2019, 05:03:25 PM
Guy #1 - Hey is that horse breathing

Guy #2 - No hasnít took a breath for weeks

Guy #1 - Here hold my beer.

Guy #1 takes out club hits horse

Guy #2 - I said that horse hasnít took a breath for weeks.

Guy #1 - Youíre right I better give it one more just to make sure.


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Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on December 04, 2019, 05:45:40 PM
  As part of our game management, we try to apply the rules correctly and use proper mechanics all of the time, not just when people are paying attention.

You do realize the coaches are well aware of this and have no issue with it? This is how the play clock is managed at every level and with very similar rules being applied. It's called philosophy and officiating WITH the rules and not BY the rules. If your state/assigner/association tells you to wait for the ready for play every time throughout the game then you need to do that.

This is similar to starting each new series on a yard line until you get inside the 10 or after a close measurement on 4th down. The rule states to spot the ball at the foremost point when it became dead. But good officials know and understand the benefit of starting each series on a line if possible.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on December 04, 2019, 09:11:58 PM
You do realize the coaches are well aware of this and have no issue with it?
  I know that you don't know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: brettjr2005 on December 04, 2019, 09:27:35 PM
This horse is already being decomposed, but I'll play devil's advocate anyways.

With 10:22 left in the first quarter A runs a play and throws an incomplete pass. When the ball hits the ground you see 10:17 left on the clock but the clock operator stops the clock at 10:16. Do you add that 1 second back in the 1st quarter? Of course you don't, and everyone from the coaches to your assigner would rightfully rip you a new one if you stopped the game to add that 1 second back. Scenario 2: A26 goes out of bounds at 8:16 in the second quarter but the clock stops at 8:15. Do you make that correction? I hope not. The score is 28-0 and a pass hits the ground with 0.3 left in the 4th quarter but the operator let's time expire; do you send both teams back to their sideline and put that 0.3 back on the clock? God, i hope not.

I don't disagree with the "always strictly follow the rules" clan, but that argument by itself is ignoring the fact that sometimes it is our job (as stated by NFHS and by common sense) to use some common sense and act in the best interest of the game instead of always following the strict letter of the rules.

Whether or not rolling the clock a couple seconds early is "in the best interest of the game" or not is another debate, but the argument that we must 100% follow the letter of the rule at all times isn't a great argument on its own.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: dammitbobby on December 04, 2019, 10:06:18 PM
100% agree with the above.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 04, 2019, 10:34:11 PM
  I know that you don't know what you're talking about.

Don't disagree with any thing you suggested, but that wasn't the question.  At least one simple question was "Why do we now stop designating and announcing the exact moment when the ball is declared RFP, with an audible whistle (so everybody, players, coaches & officials are ALL notified of that status change at the same instant), rather than when EVERYBODY is supposed to be focusing on the Umpire placing the ball, instead of a lot of different things they may need to be concentrating on and paying attention to.

It was a simple, universal signal, that proved effective, for MANY years in avoiding confusion about when the ball actually became RFP,
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on December 04, 2019, 11:41:09 PM
  I know that you don't know what you're talking about.

I've been officiating with this mechanic for 8-9 years in NCAA and 4 years in HS (we were the initial experiment state) and not once has a coach complained about it. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on December 05, 2019, 06:02:52 AM
... not once has a coach complained about it. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.
  Why would a coach ever complain about something of which he is not aware?

There are a lot of things every game where the coaches have no idea if we are using the correct mechanic or rule.  On our crew we try to do things the right way whether the coach is aware or not. 

I understand that everyone does not agree.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: Magician on December 08, 2019, 11:35:09 PM
  Why would a coach ever complain about something of which he is not aware?

There are a lot of things every game where the coaches have no idea if we are using the correct mechanic or rule.  On our crew we try to do things the right way whether the coach is aware or not. 

I understand that everyone does not agree.

They are very aware we are starting the clock as the ball is being rotated back in. It's pretty clear the R is winding it and some at the NCAA level will actually give it a quick tweet (Alf would LOVE that). They also recognize we are more precise when time is critical late in a half. This isn't something that's hidden or that subtle.

This is the RIGHT thing in the sense it is what is taught and understood by the coaches, players, officials and ECOs. It's not something the officials have decided to do and hope nobody notices.
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on December 09, 2019, 04:08:26 AM
This is the RIGHT thing in the sense it is what is taught and understood by the coaches, players, officials and ECOs. It's not something the officials have decided to do and hope nobody notices.

Really?
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 09, 2019, 11:09:27 AM
They are very aware we are starting the clock as the ball is being rotated back in. It's pretty clear the R is winding it and some at the NCAA level will actually give it a quick tweet (Alf would LOVE that). They also recognize we are more precise when time is critical late in a half. This isn't something that's hidden or that subtle. This is the RIGHT thing in the sense it is what is taught and understood by the coaches, players, officials and ECOs. It's not something the officials have decided to do and hope nobody notices.

WHAT EXACTLY is "the RIGHT thing"?  EVERYTIME in EVERYGAME when the clock stops WE signal both visually & by AUDIBLE SIGNAL. It's not a big deal, just a logical, rational, practical accommodation to let EVERYBODY aware of WHAT just happened and WHEN.

Believe it, or not, at EVERY level (BUT, more likely at the Interscholastic level) unanticipated distractions occur that might occupy a coach's, or player's (or even a field OFFICIAL'S) attention away from WATCHING the "ball being placed", and a simple RFP whistle acknowledges EVERYTHING is back on and RFP (including the ball being placed and the Umpire set to go) and game action can proceed.

Again, not a BIG DEAL, but a simple, consistent,  effective practice that has helped avoid unnecessary confusion for GENERATIONS, has been a simple universally understood RFP whistle.  The original question remains unanswered, WHAT, if any, benefit (compelling or otherwise) did eliminating this accomplish?

Especially as regards Football levels, considering their unique & different PRIMARY objectives "One size will NEVER (AUTOMATICALLY)  fit all the same".)
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: PABJNR on December 09, 2019, 02:49:16 PM
I think Dead or Alive said it best:

All I know is that to me
You look like you're having fun and
Open up your loving arms, watch out
Here I come!

You spin me right round
Baby right round like a record
Baby right round round round

You spin me right round
Baby right round like a record
Baby right round round round
You spin me right round
Baby right round like a record
Baby right round round round

 hEaDbAnG
 hEaDbAnG
Title: Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
Post by: refjeff on December 10, 2019, 06:46:10 PM
I think Dead or Alive said it best:

Josh Randall?