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Football Officiating => Classics => Topic started by: TXMike on November 14, 2007, 06:38:35 AM

Title: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on November 14, 2007, 06:38:35 AM
Is anyone aware of some recent interp that is being called the "Toe-Heel" rule.  There has been much discussion on  on non-ref sites stemming from a play in the Texas - Texas Tech game Saturday.  WR catches a pass at the endline while airborne.  He touches ground first on tip toe, toe in bounds and then his heel comes down but is on the line.  Rules on the field as a TD.  Replay did not overturn.  Now "experts" are saying the NCAA "Toe-Heel" rule applies and that rule says even if your toe comes down first in bounds but then your heel touches the line, it is incomplete.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: gsrc on November 14, 2007, 08:00:07 AM
Yes, I heard this philosophy from a Big 12 official earlier this year at a meeting. I hadn't heard it before but he described it like you did. In fact, it could've been on this board or another, but there was an apparent TD catch in a Missouri game where Chase Kaufmann made a great catch, got his toe down in the EZ, but fell backwards. While falling backwards it looked like his heel came down on the sideline. It was ruled incomplete on the field and wasn't overturned. I attempted to describe this philosophy in that thread.

The way this official explained it to the group was like this: toe in bounds, heel out of bounds= incomplete; heel inbounds, toe out of bounds=incomplete; drag of the toes only=complete.

That takes a lot of processing and slowing the game down but that's why those guys are on that level.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: DD on November 14, 2007, 08:29:03 AM
The toe-heel if one continous motion at the endline or sideline will be ruled incomplete. If the receiver tries to remain on the toes and a slight pause then to go the heel (non-continous motion) it will be ruled a catch.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: VA-Ump on November 14, 2007, 08:32:14 AM
Until they change Rule 2 and delineate between the heal and the toe, I don't see any validity in this new "rule"... 2.2.7.c.1 clearly states "foot".  Any part of the FOOT touching the line when he comes down means its incomplete.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on November 14, 2007, 09:47:21 AM
My 2-2-7-c  talks about any "part of the body"  ISn't the toe part of the body?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on November 14, 2007, 09:47:54 AM
The toe-heel if one continous motion at the endline or sideline will be ruled incomplete. If the receiver tries to remain on the toes and a slight pause then to go the heel (non-continous motion) it will be ruled a catch.

Where did this come from?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: DD on November 14, 2007, 11:55:30 AM
That is the word from the supervisors. This is the way it is called in the NFL. GSRC was correct in his post.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 14, 2007, 12:24:16 PM
It seems almost every day, some completely new, or different, interpretation of basic football is concocted by this anonomous source called, "Supervisors".  To quote Sundance, "Who are those guys?".

I thought "Replay" was intended to determine if what was seen on the field, obviously in real time, was correct, not to create new guidelines that are virtually impossible for anyone to determine in a real time sequence and require slow, or stop, action to determine.  How far is too far, when we're splitting hairs?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 14, 2007, 12:40:41 PM
I guess I thought my view was the same as everyone else's but I always figured if someone has a toe down inbounds and then his heel hits OB, there has to be a lifting of the toe off the ground some time in between for that "step" to be considered in bounds.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: jrh on November 14, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
I heard this discussed at Honig's clinic this past April.  As I recall, there was no clear consensus as to how to call this play.  One group felt that toe-heel was incomplete, the other that it was complete.  I came away from it with the impression that if the receiver  touches his toes first with some delay (what I call controlled descent) and then heel OOB, call it complete.  If it's nearly simultaneous, rule it incomplete.  All very easy to say and see with slow motion replay, but honestly I don't think that I'm good enough to see and rule that correctly in real time.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Morningrise on November 14, 2007, 03:08:42 PM
All righty then. What if A88 and B99 both grasp a forward pass while airborne, and then A88's toe touches down inbounds first, followed by B99's toe and heel both inbounds, and then A88's heel either a) inbounds or b) on the sideline?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 14, 2007, 03:29:58 PM
The rule clearly states that one foot must land inbounds.  How having your toe land inbounds and your heel come down out of bounds qualifies as "one foot", I'll never know.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: JasonTX on November 14, 2007, 04:32:13 PM
The rule clearly states that one foot must land inbounds.  How having your toe land inbounds and your heel come down out of bounds qualifies as "one foot", I'll never know.

Seems pretty simple here.  Those toes are "part of his body" so it must be a catch.

2-2-7-c

To catch, intercept or recover a ball, a player who leaves his feet to make a catch, interception or recovery must have the ball firmly in his possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 14, 2007, 04:48:06 PM
Seems pretty simple here.  Those toes are "part of his body" so it must be a catch.

2-2-7-c

To catch, intercept or recover a ball, a player who leaves his feet to make a catch, interception or recovery must have the ball firmly in his possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply

Keep reading...

2-2-7-c-1

If one foot first lands inbounds and the receiver has possession and control of the ball, it is a catch or interception even though a subsequent step or fall takes the receiver out of bounds.

So if that "one foot" does not land inbounds, it is not a catch.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: OnlyRefFB on November 14, 2007, 06:35:12 PM
Keep reading...

2-2-7-c-1

If one foot first lands inbounds and the receiver has possession and control of the ball, it is a catch or interception even though a subsequent step or fall takes the receiver out of bounds.

So if that "one foot" does not land inbounds, it is not a catch.

2-2-7-c-1 doesn't really provide much clarification to 2-2-7-c in my mind. I mean what part of "...when he first returns to the ground inbounds..." is clearer with 2-2-7-c-1? And do they mean the foot as in "any part of his foot" or the "whole" foot?  Previously, they had to clarify that a runner's helmet had to come completely off, before the ball was dead, not because it was merely dislodged.

Could this be a case of inconsistent rule language instead of clarifying rule language that will be corrected when RR has full editorial control? >:D

Title: The Video
Post by: TXMike on November 14, 2007, 08:02:22 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=62RddsOPygM (http://youtube.com/watch?v=62RddsOPygM)

[yt=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=62RddsOPygM[/yt]
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: OnlyRefFB on November 14, 2007, 08:15:30 PM
Mike - good job locating the video.

From what I saw, I think you have to rule this incomplete.  ^no Not even close to a pause between toe and heel touching IMO, if that would otherwise change your mind.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 14, 2007, 09:01:41 PM
In my opinion they put the "one foot" in there to make the distinction between the NFL rule of "two feet".  Clearly our eyes can't distinguish this but just for discussion purposes how would you rule if an airborne players gains clear control of the ball and his fingers land inbounds and as he is coming down the palm of his hand is out of bounds.  "finger-palm" rule.  Catch?  ;D   

I figured they put "one foot" in there to make the distinction between "half a foot", which is what some people apparently think will qualify as a catch.   ;D
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: JasonTX on November 14, 2007, 09:03:47 PM
If I had to in that video I've got  ^no  You'd have to have some stop action video to rule otherwise.  
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: BryanG on November 14, 2007, 09:21:54 PM
Clearly looks like an incomplete pass.   ^no  I wonder how replay missed this or if they did not have the same feed?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: mishatx on November 14, 2007, 10:43:45 PM
I was at the game, and when they called it a TD I figured he must have been fully inbounds.

Then I saw pictures, where I figured he must have held himself up on the toe for a noticeable amount of time before coming down with the heel.

Now I see video.  ^no


The TD stood because the replay wasn't conclusive enough to overturn.  None of those clips give a real good view of the foot and the endline, IMHO.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on November 15, 2007, 04:57:09 AM
A still image

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7073/shipleytech3ak1.gif)
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TxJim on November 15, 2007, 06:38:36 AM
I figured they put "one foot" in there to make the distinction between "half a foot", which is what some people apparently think will qualify as a catch.   ;D

Time for a Rule 2 update and some more ARs. Interestingly, NFL rules go on to make the distinction "A pass is completed or intercepted if the player has both feet or any other part of his body, except his hands, inbounds prior to and after the catch." 
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: pgh guy on November 15, 2007, 10:55:43 AM
This is not a rule in so far as it is a philosophy.  This is what is referred to as the "step of foot" philosophy.  As explained by many, if the toe comes down first iinbounds followed by the rest of the foot on the SL/EL, then the ruling is incomplete.  The rationale behind this is that the foot is one appendage not separated or distinguished by the toes AND THEN the heel.  In the instance in the game, when a call is made either way on the interpretation, replay cannot get involved because it is not supported by rule and will support the call in either case.  This is the philosophy as I understand it and not the Gospel according to "Big Ben"  :bOW
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: kixon66 on November 15, 2007, 07:13:40 PM
I'm at a loss as to why there's a long, drawn out discussion on this. It was ruled a TD because of the incompetent Austin resident on the crew and the fact that replay is total farce. Just ask Tee-Tee Coach Leach.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Dommer1 on November 16, 2007, 02:36:12 AM
Of course. As we all know, the Referee makes all calls, and he runs the replay system in college games too.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: KB on November 16, 2007, 04:16:56 AM
Once again, the danger of handling something through "philosophy" only.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: IllegalShift on November 17, 2007, 06:40:36 PM
Kixon, this has been an interesting and informative discussion about a play situation that obviously deserves a rule clarification.  Your anti Texas Tech rant is getting old, I'm sorry your admission application there was denied.  Move on.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: OB1 on November 18, 2007, 09:48:00 AM
How many times, in the NFL, have we seen a receiver touch a "toe," then drag a "toe" inbounds and have it ruled a catch.  I don't think we need an anatomical definition of "foot" in order to make this call.  I humbly disagree with those who say this is not a catch.  Getting a foot down has always meant, or been understdood, as any part of the foot clearly inbounds.  If something has changed, I missed it.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 18, 2007, 01:00:31 PM
How many times, in the NFL, have we seen a receiver touch a "toe," then drag a "toe" inbounds and have it ruled a catch.  I don't think we need an anatomical definition of "foot" in order to make this call.  I humbly disagree with those who say this is not a catch.  Getting a foot down has always meant, or been understdood, as any part of the foot clearly inbounds.  If something has changed, I missed it.

So if I leap up to make a catch and come down with my foot on the sideline but, say, 10% of my foot inbounds you're going to rule catch?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: OB1 on November 18, 2007, 06:11:58 PM
If the 10% of your foot clearly lands inbounds before any other part of your body touches out of bounds, yes.  Not to get caught up in NFL, but it is standard technique to coach, practice, and execute one foot (or toe) in, then dragging the toe.  They're not dragging the heel! 
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: OB1 on November 18, 2007, 06:27:06 PM
Last point, I swear!  Rule 2-2-7 c:...To catch...a ball, a player who leaves his feet to make a catch...must have the ball firmly in is possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body...

And from the esteemed Rodgers Redding guide (p. 39) regarding "catch".  "It means firmly grasping the ball and first touching the ground inbounds."
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 18, 2007, 06:30:16 PM
If the 10% of your foot clearly lands inbounds before any other part of your body touches out of bounds, yes.

ok- so take it to the extreme... say the foot is all on the white except it touches a single blade of green grass.  Based on your criteria you're calling that in as well?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: OB1 on November 18, 2007, 06:41:01 PM
Nope.  In that case it would fall under the "...when in doubt" axiom (incomplete).  Fortunately, we very, very seldom have to deal with anything so extreme.  My only point is - ball firmly controlled (and control maintained) ...first contact is down inbounds...catch!
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on November 18, 2007, 06:56:32 PM
ok- so take it to the extreme... say the foot is all on the white except it touches a single blade of green grass.  Based on your criteria you're calling that in as well?

Come on that is a no brainer.  If he comes down and any part of  him is touching OOB, he is OOB and pass is incomplete.  EX:  He comes down and all of foot is in the green except the toe which is touching a single blade of white-painted grass, OOB.  We are not talking here about a situation where he simultaneously touched in bounds and OOB.  He touched in bounds and after a "delay", touched OOB.  Complete.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 18, 2007, 07:05:52 PM
Come on that is a no brainer.  If he comes down and any part of  him is touching OOB, he is OOB and pass is incomplete.  EX:  He comes down and all of foot is in the green except the toe which is touching a single blade of white-painted grass, OOB.  We are not talking here about a situation where he simultaneously touched in bounds and OOB.  He touched in bounds and after a "delay", touched OOB.  Complete.

I completely agree but I also thought my Reply #29 above was a no-brainer, too- but others disagree.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on November 18, 2007, 07:11:03 PM
I did not see anyone here disagree with your #29.  He lands first with anypart of his body OOB he is OOB
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: JugglingReferee on November 18, 2008, 03:35:38 PM
Interesting play.  We use the toe-heel approach here in the Canadian version of NCAA.

In the video, I have an incomplete catch.  In the still, it is complete.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: houstonjaguar on August 22, 2011, 10:33:36 AM
Saw a similar play last night in the Cowboys v. Chargers game.  Toe came down inbounds, heel landed out.  Incomplete pass.

Is the rule different in college?
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: TXMike on August 22, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
The difference in NCAA would have been he already had 1 foot down in bounds so catch was completed before he went OOB.  But if the first foot does the same  "toe-heel" deal, then it is supposed to be ruled incomplete.  Makes no sense at all since all he needs to do is tap a toe down in bounds to get credit for a catch before continuing OOB.  But if his toe comes down and in same motion then his heel touches line, incomoplete.
Title: Re: NCAA "Toe-Heel" Rule (Texas - Texas Tech Game)
Post by: hefnerjm on January 23, 2015, 12:07:13 PM
I realize that I am bringing this back from the dead, but Im new here and I had one thought that I didnt see anyone mention.

Toe-tap vs. Heel-Toe:

In a situation where the receiver is laying out, falling forward OOB and gets a toe down (or foot + toe drag in NFL), no part of the foot ever touches OOB...100% of the contact (albeit just a toe) in inbounds.  Typically the first thing to touch OOB is an arm or shoulder as they go to the ground, or they lift their foot to make another step and try and stay upright.  If it is just a toe, and any of the toe is on white, you would call incomplete.

Contrast that with a receiver falling backwards with a catch.  The physics of his body allow him to get a toe down, but in falling backwards, if the heel touches white, then it is still the same "foot" and should be  ^no
I think to call this complete, the receiver would have to get the toe down, and lift the foot to make another step and prevent the heel from touching OOB. 

In either case, the Shipley catch would be tough for even the most veteran officials to call accurately in real time.