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National Federation Discussion / Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Last post by IA Linesman on Yesterday at 02:08:51 PM »
I think we have gotten off track a bit.  We can only have one loose ball play, and a loose ball during 1 or more running plays.  10-3-1 " the run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass are considered part of the loose ball play. 

So once the receiver catches and runs all actions after this are separate running plays (with a loose ball not play).  I would want to enforce from the end of the run (bag).

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Texas Topics / Re: Football weather!
« Last post by salth2o on Yesterday at 01:30:05 PM »
  Prefer 105 to 45 any day of the week.

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Last post by CalhounLJ on Yesterday at 01:07:56 PM »
I can understand this confusion: especially when you consider that during a scrimmage kick, the "zone disintegrates immediately after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone or when it's trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down". (CB 6.2.6).  It's not unreasonable for one to conclude that the same thing (NZ disintegration) might occur during a scrimmage play (not a kick); but, as pointed out, that "exception" has not been provided.  Clearly, that it is because, during a run or pass play, who merely touches the ball and where has little impact on subsequent possession.    

I think this reference is talking about the expanded neutral zone, because in HS, the NZ proper does not disintegrate once the kick crosses the expanded neutral zone. The neutral zone remains intact throughout the down, or at least until R or K possesses the kick beyond the NZ.  Case in point: K kicks the ball, it travels 10 yds, takes a huge bounce, and comes back behind the neutral zone. Can K advance? Or kick it again? Or pass it? Of course....

Here's the statement in its entirety:
RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow ­offensive linemen to block and drive defensive linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if an R player is in position to catch the ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it ­establishes a new series. (2-28-2, 5-1-3f, 6-5-6)
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Last post by CalhounLJ on Yesterday at 12:52:41 PM »
Yes that’s my understanding. But here’s another wrinkle- if at any time during that play a lineman goes downfield and the pass is thrown beyond, we have ineligible downfield even if he comes back behind the NZ before the ball is thrown. Casebook 7.5.12 Situation A



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National Federation Discussion / Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Last post by bbeagle on Yesterday at 12:47:50 PM »
So then is my understanding correct that a running play that goes beyond the NZ can end up resulting in a legal forward pass or legal kick behind or in the NZ as long as there wasn't a change of possession?  I think we'd have a real hard time explaining that one to a coach when the ball went 10 yards downfield before coming back behind the NZ, but it sounds like by rule, since the NZ apparently never disintegrates and legal passes and kicks only state "in or behind the NZ" with no reference to the ball previously going beyond the NZ, that such pass or kick would be legal.

Under NFHS rules, yes, say on a 4th and 20, the QB can run downfield 10 yards, find that he can't make it the full 20, retreats back 10, then throws a pass to a receiver 20 yards downfield for a 1st down.

In NCAA or NFL, this is an illegal forward pass. Their neutral zones disintegrate, but that's not the NFHS rule.

Of course, you'll have to explain this to the offended coach while he's yelling at you telling you that you know nothing about the rules of football and this will be the 'last game you ever officiate' when he reports you as you suck so bad.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Friday Brain Teaser
« Last post by ElvisLives on Yesterday at 12:42:44 PM »
A 1/G from the 1/2 yard line, play clock at 40, game clock on the ready-for-play signal because of the 1st down inbounds.

Yes, sir.  But how many play clock operators will get this right?  Not an everyday situation.

Also, a quick announcement by the R for the forward fumble being returned to the spot of the fumble is in order, all while the play clock is running (unless Team A is very astute and and wants to run a quick play; in that case, forego the announcement).

Everybody have fun.

Robert
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Last post by brettjr2005 on Yesterday at 12:38:42 PM »
I can understand this confusion: especially when you consider that during a scrimmage kick, the "zone disintegrates immediately after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone or when it's trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down". (CB 6.2.6).  It's not unreasonable for one to conclude that the same thing (NZ disintegration) might occur during a scrimmage play (not a kick); but, as pointed out, that "exception" has not been provided.  Clearly, that it is because, during a run or pass play, who merely touches the ball and where has little impact on subsequent possession.    

Yeah, that section was one thing I found at first that made me think "ok, this might be something" but then after re-reading it I took it to only apply to the expanded NZ and not the NZ as a whole.  I could be wrong about that, though. 

So then is my understanding correct that a running play that goes beyond the NZ can end up resulting in a legal forward pass or legal kick behind or in the NZ as long as there wasn't a change of possession?  I think we'd have a real hard time explaining that one to a coach when the ball went 10 yards downfield before coming back behind the NZ, but it sounds like by rule, since the NZ apparently never disintegrates and legal passes and kicks only state "in or behind the NZ" with no reference to the ball previously going beyond the NZ, that such pass or kick would be legal.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair catch in kicking team's end zone
« Last post by Curious on Yesterday at 12:36:53 PM »
It's not a foul to signal for a fair catch and then not make a fair catch.

Now here's a fun twist -- what if R55 signals the fair catch, but then K88 catches the ball behind the NZ.... let him run?

Sure, K can always (except during a try) advance a kick that is behind the NZ
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Texas Topics / Re: Football weather!
« Last post by TexDoc on Yesterday at 12:36:47 PM »
  Prefer 105 to 45 any day of the week.

Oh HECK naw, I'll take 45. 
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Last post by Curious on Yesterday at 12:31:50 PM »
Agree with jmckb99, it seems like logically the NZ would disappear once the ball goes beyond it.  Maybe everyone else already knew this and it's obvious, but it sounds like by the enforcement we're following in this example that A could run the ball 20 yards downfield, fumble or pass backwards, and as long as possession never changed, a player could still throw a pass or kick behind the NZ...even though A already took the ball 20 yards beyond the NZ previously?  That just doesn't seem right but as with the example in this post I can't find anything in the rule book against it.
I can understand this confusion: especially when you consider that during a scrimmage kick, the "zone disintegrates immediately after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone or when it's trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down". (CB 6.2.6).  It's not unreasonable for one to conclude that the same thing (NZ disintegration) might occur during a scrimmage play (not a kick); but, as pointed out, that "exception" has not been provided.  Clearly, that it is because, during a run or pass play, who merely touches the ball and where has little impact on subsequent possession.    
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