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41
NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Magician on March 15, 2019, 09:09:26 PM »
What shift?  A shift requires two or more players to be moving simultaneously.  In this play, the sub simply enters the field, from his team area, AFTER all of the players on the field have been stopped for more than one second.  There is no shift here - only a single sub/player in motion.  A sub is allowed to pass through the NZ to get to his side of the NZ.  In this play, he would still be the only player moving, so there is no shift here.  Nothing compels a singular player moving to stop and be set for one second before the snap, and there is no language that prohibits that from being a sub who becomes a player.  An no language compels an incoming sub/player to stop to become a back - only if he comes from a position on the line.  He didn't - he came from off the field. 
But, like I said, if we do our job correctly, we don't let the ball get snapped until B has had a chance to recognize the substitution and, likewise, make a substitution.  That should give Team B ample opportunity to make a substitution, and make sure this guy gets covered.

Am I saying this should be allowed?  Not at all.  I'm just saying the current rule language does not prohibit the scenario given. The suggested rule addition would solve this problem, totally, if that is what the rules makers want.  Easy.  Just do it.

Robert

I think you are manipulating the rule and using an interpretation to support a point you don't believe should be true. The substitute becomes a player at some point and once he does he must have been set for 1 second prior to the snap. Period. It's not more complicated than that. In order to be legally in motion at the snap he needs to establish himself as a back (needs to be set to be a back) so he's also guilty of illegal motion.

The rule is fine the way it is and to try to interpret it otherwise is trying to show you are smarter than everyone else. You are too respected on this board to become that guy.
42
NCAA Discussion / Re: Left-handed QB in 7-man mechanics
« Last post by Magician on March 15, 2019, 08:58:01 PM »
Why does the 2018 mechanics manual direct the R to stay on the right side, when there's no CJ?

I tried it last year and it was horrible.
Many conferences started doing this a few years ago. I think the idea is you don't have to worry about which side is the throwing hand and most quarterbacks are right handed. The main reason to be on the throwing arm side is to have a better view of pass/fumble when the QB is hit, but I think they've found the drop off is not significant enough to make the R's position consistent. We'll see if it changes. If allowed I would suggest doing what you are comfortable if you aren't comfortable is being on the back side of a left-handed QB.
43
NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 05:04:16 PM »
If we are to say the incoming substitute is in "legal motion" how do we resolve 7.1.5.b:

2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule 2-22-1-c).

Additionally, if we say he is "legally in motion" that by definition implies that the remaining team members have been legally set prior to him going in motion, and since he has to enter from the team area, those two items are mutually exclusive IMHO since he would be on the wrong side of the NZ and not set as he is entering the field and prior to going in motion.  At a minimum IMHO we have to have an illegal shift that converts to a false start at the snap?  How can we actually consider him to be in "legal motion"?

What shift?  A shift requires two or more players to be moving simultaneously.  In this play, the sub simply enters the field, from his team area, AFTER all of the players on the field have been stopped for more than one second.  There is no shift here - only a single sub/player in motion.  A sub is allowed to pass through the NZ to get to his side of the NZ.  In this play, he would still be the only player moving, so there is no shift here.  Nothing compels a singular player moving to stop and be set for one second before the snap, and there is no language that prohibits that from being a sub who becomes a player.  An no language compels an incoming sub/player to stop to become a back - only if he comes from a position on the line.  He didn't - he came from off the field. 
But, like I said, if we do our job correctly, we don't let the ball get snapped until B has had a chance to recognize the substitution and, likewise, make a substitution.  That should give Team B ample opportunity to make a substitution, and make sure this guy gets covered.

Am I saying this should be allowed?  Not at all.  I'm just saying the current rule language does not prohibit the scenario given. The suggested rule addition would solve this problem, totally, if that is what the rules makers want.  Easy.  Just do it.

Robert
44
National Federation Discussion / Re: Scrimmage Kick Down Situation
« Last post by KWH on March 15, 2019, 02:33:15 PM »

...adding to the Ralph Report

(9) A National Rules Interpreters meeting is held each July in which each state is supposed to have their rules interpreter or his representative attending.  (Unfortunately, not all states are represented)
It is at this meeting that, where, it may be recognized that a wording conflict is present, or more clarification is required, ect.
This meeting interprets the rule and/or determines how it will be interpreted in NFHS contests for the current year.

This meeting is important to the overall process.
Unfortunately, not all member states choose to send a representative, which in turn can lead to differing interpretations.
45
National Federation Discussion / Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Last post by KWH on March 15, 2019, 02:13:24 PM »

For clarification of what Magician just said...
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!
46
Texas Topics / Re: a Dane traveling to Houston
« Last post by getnbetter on March 15, 2019, 01:20:28 PM »
Make sure you stay for the Ludacris concert after the UT Spring game.  ;D

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/14/texas-books-ludacris-for-post-spring-game-concert/
47
NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on March 15, 2019, 12:11:00 PM »
If we are to say the incoming substitute is in "legal motion" how do we resolve 7.1.5.b:

2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule 2-22-1-c).

Additionally, if we say he is "legally in motion" that by definition implies that the remaining team members have been legally set prior to him going in motion, and since he has to enter from the team area, those two items are mutually exclusive IMHO since he would be on the wrong side of the NZ and not set as he is entering the field and prior to going in motion.  At a minimum IMHO we have to have an illegal shift that converts to a false start at the snap?  How can we actually consider him to be in "legal motion"?
48
NCAA Discussion / Re: How to properly answer a rule question.
« Last post by SJ3205 on March 15, 2019, 11:36:22 AM »
Like every other aspect of this job-- stay patient. It took me three years with the NCAA book to even become remotely comfortable with the rules in an open book quiz/test setting.
49
NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 11:17:54 AM »
I think common sense while not always appropriate must prevail on a play like this.   Let's change this a bit and put the ball on the A-45.   With 6 seconds left on the play clock, A80 runs into the game at the A-40 and never stops before the snap and catches a pass behind an swinging gate alignment.   Or better still, what if the swinging gate is on the B side of the ball and A80 runs on the field from the opposite side where no defensive men are and catches a pass and goes in untouched.   Or maybe the 11th player is the tight end. 

The point is, this play has to be shut down and call any 5 yard penalty you like.   I don't think you will get an argument from the sideline.  The coach was either trying to gain an advantage or he will be chewing out his offensive coordinator.

Centex, not necessarily arguing with you, philosophically, but, if we perform the substitution mechanics we are supposed to do, the scenarios you describe are nearly impossible to occur.
 
Would I like for 7-1-2-b to be edited to add:
7-1-2-b-6:  An incoming substitute, or a substitute that becomes a player, never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play.  This is an illegal substitution that converts to a false start.

Sure. That would give us the rule support needed to make this a dead-ball foul (at the moment the ball is moved to ostensibly snap the ball).  But, as it is, it ain't so.

Robert

50
War Stories / Best officiating "comebackers..."
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 15, 2019, 10:25:34 AM »
Sometimes an official's response is worth remembering ;D. This occurred many years ago when umpiring a Little League tourney. I had the plate and Harvey (a mailman) had the bases. A batting cage was built into the centerfield fence with a challenging ground rule of : "If the ball strikes the support of the cage (pipes) above the homerun fence, it's a home run. If it hits inside the cage it stays in play."

(1) A home team batter hits a shot directly at the cage;
(2) I couldn't tell if it hit inside the cage or the support;
(3) Harvey felt it hit inside;
(4) the centerfielder fielded the ball and nailed the batter trying for a double;
(5) out of the home dugout came : 3 coaches, a grandmother scorekeeper and a hunting dawg;
(6) they were are all yelling/barking that it hit the support;
(7) Harvey's attention was ,however, drawn to the local Catholic Priest who had been standing next to the batting cage;
(8) he was now running along the outside of the fence yelling : "HARVEY...HARVEY....";
(9) Harvey didn't go postal , he just raised his big hand and said : "With all due respect, Father, out on this field I'M GOD >:( !";
(10) the priest stopped and retreated back to his post in CF, coaches, grandma and dog all returned to their dugout.....

...AND THE BAND PLAYED ON  pHiNzuP
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