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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on March 15, 2019, 12:11:00 PM »
If we are to say the incoming substitute is in "legal motion" how do we resolve 7.1.5.b:

2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule 2-22-1-c).

Additionally, if we say he is "legally in motion" that by definition implies that the remaining team members have been legally set prior to him going in motion, and since he has to enter from the team area, those two items are mutually exclusive IMHO since he would be on the wrong side of the NZ and not set as he is entering the field and prior to going in motion.  At a minimum IMHO we have to have an illegal shift that converts to a false start at the snap?  How can we actually consider him to be in "legal motion"?
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NCAA Discussion / Re: How to properly answer a rule question.
« Last post by SJ3205 on March 15, 2019, 11:36:22 AM »
Like every other aspect of this job-- stay patient. It took me three years with the NCAA book to even become remotely comfortable with the rules in an open book quiz/test setting.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 11:17:54 AM »
I think common sense while not always appropriate must prevail on a play like this.   Let's change this a bit and put the ball on the A-45.   With 6 seconds left on the play clock, A80 runs into the game at the A-40 and never stops before the snap and catches a pass behind an swinging gate alignment.   Or better still, what if the swinging gate is on the B side of the ball and A80 runs on the field from the opposite side where no defensive men are and catches a pass and goes in untouched.   Or maybe the 11th player is the tight end. 

The point is, this play has to be shut down and call any 5 yard penalty you like.   I don't think you will get an argument from the sideline.  The coach was either trying to gain an advantage or he will be chewing out his offensive coordinator.

Centex, not necessarily arguing with you, philosophically, but, if we perform the substitution mechanics we are supposed to do, the scenarios you describe are nearly impossible to occur.
 
Would I like for 7-1-2-b to be edited to add:
7-1-2-b-6:  An incoming substitute, or a substitute that becomes a player, never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play.  This is an illegal substitution that converts to a false start.

Sure. That would give us the rule support needed to make this a dead-ball foul (at the moment the ball is moved to ostensibly snap the ball).  But, as it is, it ain't so.

Robert

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War Stories / Best officiating "comebackers..."
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 15, 2019, 10:25:34 AM »
Sometimes an official's response is worth remembering ;D. This occurred many years ago when umpiring a Little League tourney. I had the plate and Harvey (a mailman) had the bases. A batting cage was built into the centerfield fence with a challenging ground rule of : "If the ball strikes the support of the cage (pipes) above the homerun fence, it's a home run. If it hits inside the cage it stays in play."

(1) A home team batter hits a shot directly at the cage;
(2) I couldn't tell if it hit inside the cage or the support;
(3) Harvey felt it hit inside;
(4) the centerfielder fielded the ball and nailed the batter trying for a double;
(5) out of the home dugout came : 3 coaches, a grandmother scorekeeper and a hunting dawg;
(6) they were are all yelling/barking that it hit the support;
(7) Harvey's attention was ,however, drawn to the local Catholic Priest who had been standing next to the batting cage;
(8) he was now running along the outside of the fence yelling : "HARVEY...HARVEY....";
(9) Harvey didn't go postal , he just raised his big hand and said : "With all due respect, Father, out on this field I'M GOD >:( !";
(10) the priest stopped and retreated back to his post in CF, coaches, grandma and dog all returned to their dugout.....

...AND THE BAND PLAYED ON  pHiNzuP
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by centexsports on March 15, 2019, 09:04:34 AM »
I think common sense while not always appropriate must prevail on a play like this.   Let's change this a bit and put the ball on the A-45.   With 6 seconds left on the play clock, A80 runs into the game at the A-40 and never stops before the snap and catches a pass behind an swinging gate alignment.   Or better still, what if the swinging gate is on the B side of the ball and A80 runs on the field from the opposite side where no defensive men are and catches a pass and goes in untouched.   Or maybe the 11th player is the tight end. 

The point is, this play has to be shut down and call any 5 yard penalty you like.   I don't think you will get an argument from the sideline.  The coach was either trying to gain an advantage or he will be chewing out his offensive coordinator.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 08:20:15 AM »
A single player moving is neither a huddle, nor a shift.  So, when the Team A sub enters the field of play from his team area, he has committed no foul.  There is no rule or AR compelling a single substitute, who becomes a player when he gets into the formation - even while moving -  to stop before the ball may be snapped.  As long as he is not moving forward at the snap, his motion is legal.  I see no FOUL here.

However, when he enters the field, Team B must be given opportunity to substitute, and that opportunity doesn't start until the A sub gets into the formation. So, once we, in our minds, declare him to be in the formation, then Team B has three seconds to BEGIN a substitution, and then a reasonable amount of time (by our judgment) to put their substitute(s) in place in their formation.  We should be taking steps to prevent the snap until Team B has their folks in position.  If the play clock expires, we follow the procedures in the penalty statement of 3-5-2-e.
However, if Team B chooses not to sub, or completes their substitution before the ball is snapped, this would appear to be a legal play, even if, somehow, the Team A sub never stopped, and is still moving at the snap (unless he is moving forward).

The rule that everyone is using to make this a false start (7-1-2-b-5) refers to an illegal shift that converts to a false start.  An illegal shift requires two or more "players" to have been moving simultaneously.  The entire team on the field, although only 10 players, had stopped for more than one second before the sub entered the field.  When the sub became a player, he was the only one moving.  There is no rule that compels him to stop.

Is that what the rules makers intend?  I dunno.  Ask them.  But the rule language doesn't support a foul here.  If they want a single sub to also have to stop (instantly or for one full second), they need to edit to the rules to make it so.

Robert
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NCAA Discussion / Left-handed QB in 7-man mechanics
« Last post by Morningrise on March 15, 2019, 08:18:48 AM »
Why does the 2018 mechanics manual direct the R to stay on the right side, when there's no CJ?

I tried it last year and it was horrible.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Last post by Magician on March 15, 2019, 08:14:39 AM »
Tomorrow night I address the coaches at their Spring clinic. I'm sure a  portion of the meeting will be regarding the 40" clock and will be as ready as I can for that. An even hotter topic will be Maine's decision to have an 8-man football division. The 10 schools involved will be allowed to :

(1) Continue to use 300' X 160' field (all 10 have them;

(2) Modify to 240' X 120' field (none have 'em - no new schools, only schools dropping to 8);

(3) Keep @ 240' but reducing to 120' wide.

Any opinions from you 6-8-9 football guys regarding the size of fields and other aspects that may arise ????? Moving sidelines sounds much easier then moving end zones...ie...moving goal posts. I believe the schools involved all aspire to return to 11 some day.                                                     
The key thing you'll hear from them is about how they want the officials and chain crew to move quickly because they plan to snap the ball at 35 seconds. Trust me it won't happen. I've been through this twice now both in NCAA and our experimental state. They may be able to go a little bit faster sometimes but almost every snap will still be under 25 seconds and most will be under 20. And they will only go as fast as you allow them. You still control when it's ready for play to ensure all the officials are in place.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Magician on March 15, 2019, 08:10:57 AM »
IMO at least in b) the 11th uniformed squad member is still a substitute and has not become a player, so I have a live-ball substitution foul.
This is a messed up play and you are best to shut it down, especially in B since the A player is on the B side of the ball at the snap. False start is an appropriate call in both instances. You could also go with encroachment on B since he's on the wrong side of the ball. Nothing good comes from allowing the play to continue.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Kalle on March 15, 2019, 02:12:43 AM »
IMO at least in b) the 11th uniformed squad member is still a substitute and has not become a player, so I have a live-ball substitution foul.
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