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81
NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Morningrise on March 14, 2019, 09:46:51 AM »
Okay new one.

1/10 @ A-20. Team A is stationary in a legal formation, but they don't realize they have only ten players. The eleventh player starts running onto the field and is inside the numbers at a) the A-18, or b) the A-22, when the ball is snapped. Dead-ball or live-ball foul?
82
National Federation Discussion / Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 14, 2019, 09:05:08 AM »
Thanks, Bossman, fiddling with new fangled gadgets is way beyond my paygrade  :) but I'll pass it on to those that are so inclined. As a white hat that has requested not to work any 4-man crews, I'll be relying that the back judge will be ready to roll.

t
83
National Federation Discussion / Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Last post by bossman72 on March 14, 2019, 08:57:30 AM »
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit.

Maybe this will help (see attached).  I have not personally confirmed this works, but someone else said it does.

84
NCAA Discussion / Re: How to properly answer a rule question.
« Last post by bossman72 on March 14, 2019, 08:46:39 AM »
One thing that helps me is to visualize the play in my mind's eye as it's described in the question.  That helps connect words to visual actions you see.
85
Texas Topics / a Dane traveling to Houston
« Last post by nielsilberg on March 14, 2019, 08:07:08 AM »
Hi

Is there any activities in the Houston area that I can attend during the week of April 8th (will be leaving April 15th)?

I will travel to Houston,Tx and have the possibility for some spare time.
As a Football official from Denmark I would love to have a little “Texas football experience”.

Realizing that spring is football offseason, I know that chances that of watching a scrimmage or a spring game is low, but I was hoping that I can attend a study session or other activity.


Can you guys help me?
86
National Federation Discussion / Re: Scrimmage Kick Down Situation
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 14, 2019, 07:55:41 AM »
Musings from a grumpy ole' duffer in the first row.......

I understand how one can think that a new rule could have been written on the back of a cocktail napkin as last call lingers, but there is a lengthy procedure :

(1) Proposals are only accepted form committee members or with approval of the author's state office and must arrive before Nov. 1.
(2) They are divided equally between 4 sub-committees who debate its need and work on its verbiage . A straw vote is taken.
(3) A general session is held where each sub-committee chair announces their straw opinion. Other members often offer theirs.
(4) The sub-committees then reconvenes and votes for those that they feel should pass.
(5) "Campfire night" where all members meet and discuss the proposals that have made it to a final floor vote.
(6) The following morning, each proposal is debated and voted upon.
(7) The Editorial Committee then meets and attempts to perfect the wording and write cases and POES
(8)-Speaking from my days on the Editorial Committee - continue to tweak the wording up to print time.

A newly written rule , if it explained all possible situations, would become as large as a NYC phone book (no offense, YankeeAl) . The fallback then becomes the Case Book. Not all situations can be covered in the Case Book, the fallback then becomes the State Interp. Sometimes he may not be sure, and can call the Editor (who only accepts calls regarding rules from State Interp.). If something occurs in our game that we haven't read or heard about, IMHO, we should rule on what makes sense.
87
National Federation Discussion / Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 14, 2019, 07:28:39 AM »
When you are sitting around waiting for something to happen that hasn't yet, you may....

(1) Read the sports page (done it).
(2) Read the obits to see if you are still alive (done it).
(3) Watch a sports show (Ole' Dell can't do it).
(4) See how the responses to this topic compares to those of the past.... You may (not) find my following facts interesting...or not. :) :o ??? ::)

This is post #114 of this topic. The following topics have exceeded this:

2-22-2017     "the new rules are here"     132 posts
4-4-2016         "     "      "      "     "         148 posts

The first recorded topic was on 8-26-2010...Bugolathe was the author and LarryW60 was the last responder.
The topic had something to do about holding (I think) I don't think there were many responses.

 :puke: If I find anymore useless knowledge before my scheduled client arrives, I'll let you know!   :puke:

This post brings this topic into a tie for 2nd place for the "HOTTEST TOPIC AWARD" with 17 more needed for  aWaRd . I figured our new rules would  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: yEs: (5 man crew)
88
National Federation Discussion / Re: Illegal Shift
« Last post by bama_stripes on March 14, 2019, 07:03:36 AM »
These are two distinct violations, and we have to understand and recognize the difference. 
{snip}
Determining which violation has occurred is NOT an either/or choice, it is understanding recognizing what has happened and applying the appropriate consequence.

It absolutely IS an either/or choice.  Either you kill the play immediately (FS) or you allow it to continue (IM).
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NCAA Discussion / Re: How to properly answer a rule question.
« Last post by Kalle on March 14, 2019, 05:02:53 AM »
A 3/4 @ B-40.  At the snap, team A had 5 players in the backfield.  B69 intercepts a legal forward tipped pass and is tackled at the A-35.  On B69’s interception return, A44 holds B22 at the B-45.  With the crown of the helmet, B70 hits A70 at the knees while A70 is on the ground at the 50.  Ruling?

Let me give you an example of how I work the questions.

1. Team A commits a live-ball foul at the snap. ("At the snap, team A had 5 players in the backfield.")
2. Team B gains possession before fouling ("clean hands" exception to offsetting penalties might apply). ("B69 intercepts a legal forward tipped pass")
3. Result of the play is team B 1/10 A-35. ("is tackled at the A-35")
4. Team A commits a live-ball foul while team B is in possession. ("On B69’s interception return, A44 holds B22 at the B-45")
5. Assuming that the contact by B70 occurs while the ball is live in team B's possession, this is a live-ball foul on team B while team B is in possession. ("With the crown of the helmet, B70 hits A70 at the knees while A70 is on the ground at the 50.")
6. We now have all the information from the play situation and can proceed with options.
7. Team B has the option to decline all team A penalties to keep the ball, which they will do.
8. Only remaining foul is the TGT by B70, which is basic spot enforcement, and basic spot is the spot of the foul.
9. Result: Team B 1/10 B-35. B70 is disqualified.
10. Possible but extremely unlikely result: Offsetting fouls, Team A 3/4 B-40. B70 is disqualified.
11. Game clock will start on the snap if #9 (1st down for team B), ready if #10 (clock stopped only due to penalty enforcement).
12. Play clock is 25s due to penalty enforcement.

If the TGT happens after the ball is dead, there are no offsetting penalties and team B will likely decline the illegal formation and accept the holding penalty. TGT penalty is enforced after that, so we end up at A-40, 1/10 for team B, snap, 25, disqualify B70. Theoretical alternative is team A 1/10 B-30 after team B accepts the ILF penalty, and another theoretical result is Team B 1/10 B-35 after team B declines both team A penalties.

Do note that this is a bad example as the play situation description does not have enough information for us to fully answer it.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Illegal Shift
« Last post by Magician on March 13, 2019, 10:59:28 PM »
These are two distinct violations, and we have to understand and recognize the difference.  A FS happens BEFORE the play starts, is not correctable and prevents the play from beginning, so enforcement for the violation is not influenced by any action associated with subsequent play.

the violation for IM happens with the starting of a play, and an improper action can be corrected prior to the play beginning, if the requirements can be properly accomplished before the ball is snapped, and does not cause the play to automatically terminate.  Determining which violation has occurred is NOT an either/or choice, it is understanding recognizing what has happened and applying the appropriate consequence. 

What he's trying to say is the same act could be considered illegal motion by one official and false start by the other. Stating the rule does nothing to help that discussion. That was already understood.

Let's say a back goes in motion and before the snap turns and goes up field. If that act is sudden and simulate what he would do at the snap it's a false start. If that act is more smooth and he happens to be moving forward when the ball is snapped it's illegal motion. More than likely it's going to be a false start. Illegal motion due to moving forward at the snap usually involves a back who bows a little too much so he's angling forward at the snap.
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