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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: ElvisLives on March 08, 2019, 08:22:13 AM

Title: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 08, 2019, 08:22:13 AM
Let's keep our minds working during this "down time."  Here is an easy question:

Can a player of Team A wearing a number 50-79 ever be eligible to touch a legal forward pass?  Explain your answer.

Then, someone else ask a question, and keep this going.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on March 08, 2019, 08:43:19 AM
Yes, after it has touched a team B player or an official. Or does the touch have to be intentional, as the rules talk about a team player or an official touching the ball?

Another easy one: what is the minimum number of players a team can legally play with?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on March 08, 2019, 09:50:57 AM
Another easy one: what is the minimum number of players a team can legally play with?

Five on offense (50-79, or else it's an illegal formation), except in a scrimmage kick formation when it's two (snapper and obvious kicker).  Nine on free kicks (4 on either side of the kicker). No lower limit on Team B.

Next question: What's the enforcement if, in extra periods, Team B intercepts a pass, takes it down the field, and Team A stops the touchdown by hauling the ball carrier down by the face mask at the A-4?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 08, 2019, 10:17:47 AM
15 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot which will be the A-25.  Result is 1st and 10,  at the A-12-1/2.

Next Question:  4th down and 16.  Team A is in scrimmage kick formation and immediately after the snap kicker sprints hard right and just after kicking the ball rugby style runs into a stationary B-90 and goes head over heels landing flat on his back.  What do we have?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on March 08, 2019, 11:45:13 AM
15 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot which will be the A-25.  Result is 1st and 10,  at the A-12-1/2.

What about 3-1-3-g-1 ?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 08, 2019, 12:02:34 PM
15 yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot which will be the A-25.  Result is 1st and 10,  at the A-12-1/2.

Next Question:  4th down and 16.  Team A is in scrimmage kick formation and immediately after the snap kicker sprints hard right and just after kicking the ball rugby style runs into a stationary B-90 and goes head over heels landing flat on his back.  What do we have?

No foul.  Play on.
Robert

MODIFIED 1:15 pm
Let me explain.  No foul, regardless of the kicker's location with respect to the tackle box, because the defender did not run into or rough the kicker.  Although not specifically stated in the rules, a stationary player can not be held responsible for contact between himself and an opponent - not even pass interference.  The kick is legal, a the contact is legal.  We don't know enough about the rest of the down to declare the next possession/down/distance.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 08, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
What about 3-1-3-g-1 ?

IMHO an intentional open field "face mask tackle" against a ball carrier whose about to win the game as I would envision described here would qualify as a flagrant PF, but would also agree that it's a judgment call.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 08, 2019, 02:57:38 PM
What about 3-1-3-g-1 ?

IMHO an intentional open field "face mask tackle" against a ball carrier whose about to win the game as I would envision described here would qualify as a flagrant PF, but would also agree that it's a judgment call.

While I can envision a facemask foul so deliberately violent, with malicious intent to cause harm, that would rise to the level of flagrant, it would be very, very rare.  Of course, a flagrant foul requires disqualification, and I just didn't envision such a foul by the original description.  But, it could happen.  In that case, the penalty would be enforced at the succeeding spot (25) for the beginning of the next possession of the extra period (or the first possession of an additional extra period). 1/10 for the intercepting team, 12 1/2 yard line of the opponent.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 08, 2019, 06:57:57 PM
Yes, after it has touched a team B player or an official. Or does the touch have to be intentional, as the rules talk about a team player or an official touching the ball?

Another easy one: what is the minimum number of players a team can legally play with?

The touching by a B player or an official need not be intentional.  In fact, touching by an official had better be unintentional!  (Although, if I had a bullet pass from Patrick Mahomes - in his college days - headed right between my eyes, I’m gonna do what I have to do to keep my health.)

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Etref on March 08, 2019, 10:43:04 PM
Five on offense (50-79, or else it's an illegal formation


Have to have at least one in the backfield to receive the snap
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on March 08, 2019, 10:59:32 PM
While it is probably a good idea, there is no legal requirement in the rules to have somebody in position to receive the snap.

As to the flagrant discussion, I'll add what I told my crew in a similar situation a few years ago. Ours was on a horse collar on a try, but the same carryover principle applies and it was still a foul that prevented a score. A flagrant personal foul is not a foul that is extremely obvious or gains an unfair advantage. It is a foul so dangerous that it necessitates disqualification. If you aren't willing to DQ the player for the action, it's not a flagrant foul. Unfortunately, this means there will be times when a safety foul goes unpunished. But that's the rule and the definition. Just because it offends your sensibilities of fairness doesn't make it flagrant.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 09, 2019, 06:10:17 AM
A flagrant personal foul is not a foul that is extremely obvious or gains an unfair advantage ........ .
I would disagree.  The universally accepted definitions of flagrant all include the obvious or extremely obvious component.  The additional component needed to be called flagrant by definition in our rules is " .... illegal physical contact so extreme or deliberate that it places an opponent in danger of catastrophic injury."  If in our judgment the act of "tackling" the ball carrier by the face mask at full speed in the open field is an obvious intentional act then I'm very strongly leaning toward a flagrant PF call and that is 100% within our rules.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 09, 2019, 08:44:18 AM
Have to have at least one in the backfield to receive the snap

Not true.  There is no requirement for any backfield players.  The snapper can snap the ball backward, let it leave his hand(s), and then other rules govern who can catch or recover the ball. 
-If all 5 lineman are ineligible (and they would be, in this scenario, since they would be numbered 50-79), none of them could receive a hand-to-hand snap (not really sure how that could happen, anyway). 
-When the ball leaves the snapper's hand, it is a backward pass, and any player of Team A (or B) may catch or recover a backward pass.  How would that happen?  The ball could be snapped high into the air, and one of the linemen could, in theory, turn and run to it and catch it.  It could happen.
-If the backward pass from the snap touches the ground, any player of Team A (or B) may recover it.  Easy to imagine that:  ball is snapped straight back and falls to the ground and is bouncing around several yards behind the NZ, and an A player retreats from the line to recover the ball and attempts to advance (or just falls on it).
-Yes, there is rule regarding a "planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper," and that could come into play.  Snapper snaps the ball backward but lets it fall 'softly' out of his hand, so the ball is just sitting on the ground immediately behind him, so another lineman can move along behind him, recover the ball, and attempt to advance.  By rule, if he is able to advance the ball (fat chance), we could enforce the planned loose ball penalty. My guess is he'll lose yards, and get creamed in the process.

So, is 5 players for Team A (all linemen numbered 50-79) a sound offensive scheme?  Nope.  Legal?  Yep.

Robert

(OK, things may be different for 6-player football, but I'm not an expert in those rules.)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 09, 2019, 02:39:42 PM
Let's keep 'em coming, and not dwell too long on any one thing.

How about this:

2/5, A-45, 6:00 (1), running.  During the dead-ball period between 1st and 2nd down, A10, A33, and A89 depart the field at their sideline, and A11, A38, and A80 enter the field from their team area as replacements.  A33 stops and sets in the offensive backfield.  A89 takes a position on the left end of the line, stops and sets.  All 10 other A players have stopped and are set as A10, in continuous lateral movement since entering the field of play, passes the middle of the field and is outside the numbers, in the backfield, on the side of the field opposite his team area, where he stops jogging, but is still in the process of setting his feet, but not moving forward, when the ball is snapped.
Ruling:



(Not tricky, but not routine, either.)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on March 09, 2019, 07:19:48 PM
This is false start because not all 11 players became set for one second prior to the snap. 2/10, A-40, RFP, 25 PC.

Back to more question-answer rather than a play situation. For defensive holding fouls, what are the criteria necessary for the penalty to carry an automatic first down?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 09, 2019, 08:42:23 PM
This is false start because not all 11 players became set for one second prior to the snap. 2/10, A-40, RFP, 25 PC.


Yeah, that’s what I was going for - an illegal shift that converts to a false start, because the entire team didn’t stop for one full second after the ball was ready for play, and before the snap.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 10, 2019, 09:41:21 AM
For defensive holding fouls, what are the criteria necessary for the penalty to carry an automatic first down?

A legal forward pass must cross the NZ AND the foul by team B is beyond the NZ prior to pass being touched for the holding call to include an automatic 1st down.

Next question:  4th and 15 at the B-35 yard line. Team A is in scrimmage kick formation.  At the snap the wideout A-80 sprints down field and turns in at about the B-25 while TE A-87 turns out at the B-28 in front of A-80.  Just before A-80 and B-87 cross and while a forward pass is in the air B-21 tackles A-80 drawing a flag for pass interference (flag is down at the B-25) as B-87 catches the pass and is tackled at the B-28. What do we have?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 10, 2019, 11:17:27 AM
A legal forward pass must cross the NZ AND the foul by team B is beyond the NZ prior to pass being touched for the holding call to include an automatic 1st down.


Don't forget that the foul must be against an eligible Team A player for the penalty to include a first down for A.  Tackling a tackle (ineligible) illegally gets you 10 yards, but nothing more.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Sonofanump on March 10, 2019, 03:54:16 PM
A legal forward pass must cross the NZ AND the foul by team B is beyond the NZ prior to pass being touched for the holding call to include an automatic 1st down.

Next question:  4th and 15 at the B-35 yard line. Team A is in scrimmage kick formation.  At the snap the wideout A-80 sprints down field and turns in at about the B-25 while TE A-87 turns out at the B-28 in front of A-80.  Just before A-80 and B-87 cross and while a forward pass is in the air B-21 tackles A-80 drawing a flag for pass interference (flag is down at the B-25) as B-87 catches the pass and is tackled at the B-28. What do we have?

Is this pass high and deep?  Nevertheless, we have at minimum defensive holding on a legal forward pass.  It will be an automatic first down for A, depending on the judgement of the pass is high and deep is if DPI (15) or DH (10)



1) KO at A-35, ball is at A-43 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-47
2) KO at A-35, ball is at A-47 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-43
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 11, 2019, 05:13:48 AM
1) KO at A-35, ball is at A-43 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-47
2) KO at A-35, ball is at A-47 when A88 blocks B33 at the A-43



1) Assuming that the ball has not been touched by R at the time of the block, Illegal Block (K is not eligible to touch the kick) - Re-kick from the K-30 or 5 yds from the subsequent spot where R has possession.
2) Legal Block

Next Play: 1st & 10 at the A-25.  Team A is in a no back shotgun formation.  DB B-29 is coming on an outside blitz and TE A-81 is 4 yards away from B-29 (lined up in tight formation next to the tackle) quickly steps sideways and moves to his right in a attempt to get on front of the blitzing B-29 just before the snap.  What do we have?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 11, 2019, 07:04:17 AM
Next Play: 1st & 10 at the A-25.  Team A is in a no back shotgun formation.  DB B-29 is coming on an outside blitz and TE A-81 is 4 yards away from B-29 (lined up in tight formation next to the tackle) quickly steps sideways and moves to his right in a attempt to get on front of the blitzing B-29 just before the snap.  What do we have?

This could be several things.
-If A81's movement is sudden and looked like the start of the play, false start. Dead-ball foul, 1/15, A-20.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he hasn't stopped before the snap, illegal motion.  Live-ball foul, 1/15, A-20, or result of the play.  Only a back may be in motion at the snap, legally.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he stops completely (one-second pause not required for a single player moving), nothing.  Play on.
-Or, my wise guy answer, since he was positioned on the left end, he collides with the tackle, who collides with the guard, etc., and, like dominoes, the entire line falls over, and Team A requests a time out.

(By the way, a little nitpicky, but, going back to the Nelson/Adams days, place a dash between the letter and number for yard lines (e.g., A-45), but no dash for player numbers (e.g., A45).  That helps distinguish yard lines from player numbers).
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 11, 2019, 09:03:54 AM
This could be several things.
-If A81's movement is sudden and looked like the start of the play, false start. Dead-ball foul, 1/15, A-20.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he hasn't stopped before the snap, illegal motion.  Live-ball foul, 1/15, A-20, or result of the play.  Only a back may be in motion at the snap, legally.
-If A81's movement is not construed as a false start, but he stops completely (one-second pause not required for a single player moving), nothing.  Play on.
-Or, my wise guy answer, since he was positioned on the left end, he collides with the tackle, who collides with the guard, etc., and, like dominoes, the entire line falls over, and Team A requests a time out.

(By the way, a little nitpicky, but, going back to the Nelson/Adams days, place a dash between the letter and number for yard lines (e.g., A-45), but no dash for player numbers (e.g., A45).  That helps distinguish yard lines from player numbers).
Agree on each of your scenarios. Ends can shift but they can't be in motion at the snap.

A 3rd and 9 at the A-14. A snaps the ball and runs to the A32 where they fumble. B recovers the fumble and runs to the A-4 where he fumbles. The ball hits the pylon. At the snap, A is guilty of an illegal formation. During B's return. B44 blocks A75 in the back at the A-15. Who has choices and what choices do they have?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 11, 2019, 02:06:11 PM
Pure result of the play is a touchback with A next to snap at the A-20.

1. First, if A wants to keep the ball they would have to decline B's penalty (A's option).
2. Since A will be the next to snap the ball the rules seem to say the A penalty could be enforced (B's option), a previous spot enforcement that would leave A with a 3rd down at the A-9.

Next question:  Just after Team A has set with the QB in under the snapper and ready to call signals the nose tackle barks out a single word "formation" call which results in virtually all of team A (except the snapper whose helmet to helmet with the nose tackle) moving.  The ball has not been snapped and we've got 4 flags down for what looks like a false start.  What do we actually have?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 11, 2019, 04:52:39 PM
Next question:  Just after Team A has set with the QB in under the snapper and ready to call signals the nose tackle barks out a single word "formation" call which results in virtually all of team A (except the snapper whose helmet to helmet with the nose tackle) moving.  The ball has not been snapped and we've got 4 flags down for what looks like a false start.  What do we actually have?

I'm answering this one because it is a sore subject with me.  I don't give a rats bohunkus what any coach claims about a barked signal being a legal defensive signal.  Baloney.  If the signal is verbal, and called in such a way that causes Team A to react, that is a "disconcerting signal," and is a dead-ball delay-of-game foul.  Yes, they are allowed to make a verbal signal, must it must not be made in a way that disconcerts Team A.  Period.  End of story.

Same with those abrupt movements by d-linemen while Team A is preparing to snap the ball.  No, coach, you can't make a movement like, even if Team A doesn't react, and danged sure if they DO react.  Dead-ball, delay of game.

The problem is that we don't have enough of our guys having the nads to make this call, to put a stop to this practice.  One guy gets away with it, and he tells his coaching buddies that it is legal, and they start doing it.  Then someone does call it, and they go ballistic, like we just stole their favorite pair of sunglasses (off the top of their head during a night game).

Make the call.

 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 11, 2019, 04:55:18 PM
Pure result of the play is a touchback with A next to snap at the A-20.

1. First, if A wants to keep the ball they would have to decline B's penalty (A's option).
2. Since A will be the next to snap the ball the rules seem to say the A penalty could be enforced (B's option), a previous spot enforcement that would leave A with a 3rd down at the A-9.

Next question:  Just after Team A has set with the QB in under the snapper and ready to call signals the nose tackle barks out a single word "formation" call which results in virtually all of team A (except the snapper whose helmet to helmet with the nose tackle) moving.  The ball has not been snapped and we've got 4 flags down for what looks like a false start.  What do we actually have?

I will disagree with your answer. There is a question over who has team possession at the end of the down. I say it's team B because they were the last team in possession during the down. Absent any fouls A would put the ball in play on the next down, but I don't believe that applies. For the sake of discussion, let's go with team B in possession. Since they obtained the ball with clean hands they can decline A's foul if they want. They wouldn't do that though because then A would decline B's foul and take the result of the play: touchback 1st and 10 at the A-20. Better field position and a first down. B's other choice would be to accept A's penalty which results in a replay of the down, 3rd and 9 at the A-14. B would choose that option every time.

If you feel A is in team possession at the end of the down, they don't have any options because they fouled  before gaining possession. It's a double foul replay the down at the previous spot. 3rd and 9 at the A-14.

In this case it doesn't matter, but if it was 3rd and goal at the B-8 and this happened, B would likely decline the penalty and move A back to their own 20 even if it's a first down.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Dakota Dan on March 11, 2019, 08:22:52 PM
I'm answering this one because it is a sore subject with me.  I don't give a rats bohunkus what any coach claims about a barked signal being a legal defensive signal.  Baloney.  If the signal is verbal, and called in such a way that causes Team A to react, that is a "disconcerting signal," and is a dead-ball delay-of-game foul.  Yes, they are allowed to make a verbal signal, must it must not be made in a way that disconcerts Team A.  Period.  End of story.

Same with those abrupt movements by d-linemen while Team A is preparing to snap the ball.  No, coach, you can't make a movement like, even if Team A doesn't react, and danged sure if they DO react.  Dead-ball, delay of game.


The problem is that we don't have enough of our guys having the nads to make this call, to put a stop to this practice.  One guy gets away with it, and he tells his coaching buddies that it is legal, and they start doing it.  Then someone does call it, and they go ballistic, like we just stole their favorite pair of sunglasses (off the top of their head during a night game).

Make the call.

 

I agree with you 100% and unfortunately you got a new power 5 coach coming to your neck of the woods in Lubbock that has a long history of doing just as you said at Utah State.  So, expect to see a trickle down effect in West Texas.  R. Redding has addressed this back in 2012 (2012 PLAY INTERPRETATIONS BULLETIN NO. 3, play 3) and I thought it would find its way in the rule book in the case plays but to date there is no mention and coaches continue to do it and get away with it
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: JasonTX on March 11, 2019, 10:41:46 PM
I agree with you 100% and unfortunately you got a new power 5 coach coming to your neck of the woods in Lubbock that has a long history of doing just as you said at Utah State.  So, expect to see a trickle down effect in West Texas.  R. Redding has addressed this back in 2012 (2012 PLAY INTERPRETATIONS BULLETIN NO. 3, play 3) and I thought it would find its way in the rule book in the case plays but to date there is no mention and coaches continue to do it and get away with it

7-1-5-a-5 is how I shut this stuff down.  I know a lot of coaches think that only mimicking the snap count was illegal but the rule is pretty clear that,  "No player use words or signals that disconcert the opponents".

Last year we called it against a team in a district game and the coach didn't like it, but come playoff time he requested our crew to come work a game. 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 12, 2019, 05:26:53 AM
Absent any fouls A would put the ball in play on the next down, but I don't believe that applies. For the sake of discussion, let's go with team B in possession. Since they obtained the ball with clean hands they can decline A's foul if they want. They wouldn't do that though because then A would decline B's foul and take the result of the play: touchback 1st and 10 at the A-20. Better field position and a first down. B's other choice would be to accept A's penalty which results in a replay of the down, 3rd and 9 at the A-14. B would choose that option every time.

If you feel A is in team possession at the end of the down, they don't have any options because they fouled  before gaining possession. It's a double foul replay the down at the previous spot. 3rd and 9 at the A-14.

In this case it doesn't matter, but if it was 3rd and goal at the B-8 and this happened, B would likely decline the penalty and move A back to their own 20 even if it's a first down.

So either way we end up with A next snapping at their 9 yard line after previous spot enforcement of the 5 yd penalty.  Would the enforcement options and the order they are given in be any different if instead of the loose ball hitting the pylon, the loose ball was recovered in the EZ by team A?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on March 12, 2019, 12:20:05 PM
Back to the touchback play,

Quote
I will disagree with your answer. There is a question over who has team possession at the end of the down. I say it's team B because they were the last team in possession during the down. Absent any fouls A would put the ball in play on the next down, but I don't believe that applies. For the sake of discussion, let's go with team B in possession. Since they obtained the ball with clean hands they can decline A's foul if they want. They wouldn't do that though because then A would decline B's foul and take the result of the play: touchback 1st and 10 at the A-20. Better field position and a first down. B's other choice would be to accept A's penalty which results in a replay of the down, 3rd and 9 at the A-14. B would choose that option every time.

This is the correct interpretation. The touchback is NOT a change of possession during the down. This was part of a CFO test question 2 years ago based on a play that happened in a bowl game. The scenario was a roughing the passer where the pass was caught, advanced and fumbled and the fumble hit the pylon. The correct answer is that the RPS is enforced from the spot of the fumble because that is the last run and there was no change of possession during the down.  So in our play, B gets the option and will want to offset the fouls and replay 3rd down. If they decide to decline A's foul, A will decline theirs as well and A will get the touchback.


Quote
Would the enforcement options and the order they are given in be any different if instead of the loose ball hitting the pylon, the loose ball was recovered in the EZ by team A?

Yes. Because now we have another change of possession during the down. Now A is the last team to have possession and they fouled before last gaining possession. That means the fouls automatically offset and nobody gets an option.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 12, 2019, 04:17:02 PM
So either way we end up with A next snapping at their 9 yard line after previous spot enforcement of the 5 yd penalty.  Would the enforcement options and the order they are given in be any different if instead of the loose ball hitting the pylon, the loose ball was recovered in the EZ by team A?
No, we end up with replaying the down at the 14. It's s double foul so the penalties offset. I agree with Legacy's answer to your other question.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on March 13, 2019, 12:50:31 PM
No, we end up with replaying the down at the 14. It's s double foul so the penalties offset. I agree with Legacy's answer to your other question.

Nitpicking: there is no such term as a double foul in NCAA (I think there is in NFHS). We just talk about the offsetting penalties, the fouls are what they are. (I know that you know but sloppy language and so forth)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on March 14, 2019, 09:46:51 AM
Okay new one.

1/10 @ A-20. Team A is stationary in a legal formation, but they don't realize they have only ten players. The eleventh player starts running onto the field and is inside the numbers at a) the A-18, or b) the A-22, when the ball is snapped. Dead-ball or live-ball foul?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: dvasques on March 14, 2019, 04:34:53 PM
Dead ball
FST for not having all players set
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 14, 2019, 04:41:20 PM
I'd have a blow & throw dead ball false start in both cases since at no time were all 11 Team A players set for 1 second before the snap.  Also, can't be in "legal motion" since legal motion can only be after player has been set for 1 full second and the motion started on Team A's side of the NZ which it couldn't have done here (ball at A-20).

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on March 15, 2019, 02:12:43 AM
IMO at least in b) the 11th uniformed squad member is still a substitute and has not become a player, so I have a live-ball substitution foul.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 15, 2019, 08:10:57 AM
IMO at least in b) the 11th uniformed squad member is still a substitute and has not become a player, so I have a live-ball substitution foul.
This is a messed up play and you are best to shut it down, especially in B since the A player is on the B side of the ball at the snap. False start is an appropriate call in both instances. You could also go with encroachment on B since he's on the wrong side of the ball. Nothing good comes from allowing the play to continue.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 08:20:15 AM
A single player moving is neither a huddle, nor a shift.  So, when the Team A sub enters the field of play from his team area, he has committed no foul.  There is no rule or AR compelling a single substitute, who becomes a player when he gets into the formation - even while moving -  to stop before the ball may be snapped.  As long as he is not moving forward at the snap, his motion is legal.  I see no FOUL here.

However, when he enters the field, Team B must be given opportunity to substitute, and that opportunity doesn't start until the A sub gets into the formation. So, once we, in our minds, declare him to be in the formation, then Team B has three seconds to BEGIN a substitution, and then a reasonable amount of time (by our judgment) to put their substitute(s) in place in their formation.  We should be taking steps to prevent the snap until Team B has their folks in position.  If the play clock expires, we follow the procedures in the penalty statement of 3-5-2-e.
However, if Team B chooses not to sub, or completes their substitution before the ball is snapped, this would appear to be a legal play, even if, somehow, the Team A sub never stopped, and is still moving at the snap (unless he is moving forward).

The rule that everyone is using to make this a false start (7-1-2-b-5) refers to an illegal shift that converts to a false start.  An illegal shift requires two or more "players" to have been moving simultaneously.  The entire team on the field, although only 10 players, had stopped for more than one second before the sub entered the field.  When the sub became a player, he was the only one moving.  There is no rule that compels him to stop.

Is that what the rules makers intend?  I dunno.  Ask them.  But the rule language doesn't support a foul here.  If they want a single sub to also have to stop (instantly or for one full second), they need to edit to the rules to make it so.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: centexsports on March 15, 2019, 09:04:34 AM
I think common sense while not always appropriate must prevail on a play like this.   Let's change this a bit and put the ball on the A-45.   With 6 seconds left on the play clock, A80 runs into the game at the A-40 and never stops before the snap and catches a pass behind an swinging gate alignment.   Or better still, what if the swinging gate is on the B side of the ball and A80 runs on the field from the opposite side where no defensive men are and catches a pass and goes in untouched.   Or maybe the 11th player is the tight end. 

The point is, this play has to be shut down and call any 5 yard penalty you like.   I don't think you will get an argument from the sideline.  The coach was either trying to gain an advantage or he will be chewing out his offensive coordinator.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 11:17:54 AM
I think common sense while not always appropriate must prevail on a play like this.   Let's change this a bit and put the ball on the A-45.   With 6 seconds left on the play clock, A80 runs into the game at the A-40 and never stops before the snap and catches a pass behind an swinging gate alignment.   Or better still, what if the swinging gate is on the B side of the ball and A80 runs on the field from the opposite side where no defensive men are and catches a pass and goes in untouched.   Or maybe the 11th player is the tight end. 

The point is, this play has to be shut down and call any 5 yard penalty you like.   I don't think you will get an argument from the sideline.  The coach was either trying to gain an advantage or he will be chewing out his offensive coordinator.

Centex, not necessarily arguing with you, philosophically, but, if we perform the substitution mechanics we are supposed to do, the scenarios you describe are nearly impossible to occur.
 
Would I like for 7-1-2-b to be edited to add:
7-1-2-b-6:  An incoming substitute, or a substitute that becomes a player, never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play.  This is an illegal substitution that converts to a false start.

Sure. That would give us the rule support needed to make this a dead-ball foul (at the moment the ball is moved to ostensibly snap the ball).  But, as it is, it ain't so.

Robert

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 15, 2019, 12:11:00 PM
If we are to say the incoming substitute is in "legal motion" how do we resolve 7.1.5.b:

2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule 2-22-1-c).

Additionally, if we say he is "legally in motion" that by definition implies that the remaining team members have been legally set prior to him going in motion, and since he has to enter from the team area, those two items are mutually exclusive IMHO since he would be on the wrong side of the NZ and not set as he is entering the field and prior to going in motion.  At a minimum IMHO we have to have an illegal shift that converts to a false start at the snap?  How can we actually consider him to be in "legal motion"?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 15, 2019, 05:04:16 PM
If we are to say the incoming substitute is in "legal motion" how do we resolve 7.1.5.b:

2. The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage unless he first becomes a back and comes to a complete stop.
3. A player in motion at the snap must have satisfied the one-second rule—i.e., he may not start his motion before any shift has ended (Rule 2-22-1-c).

Additionally, if we say he is "legally in motion" that by definition implies that the remaining team members have been legally set prior to him going in motion, and since he has to enter from the team area, those two items are mutually exclusive IMHO since he would be on the wrong side of the NZ and not set as he is entering the field and prior to going in motion.  At a minimum IMHO we have to have an illegal shift that converts to a false start at the snap?  How can we actually consider him to be in "legal motion"?

What shift?  A shift requires two or more players to be moving simultaneously.  In this play, the sub simply enters the field, from his team area, AFTER all of the players on the field have been stopped for more than one second.  There is no shift here - only a single sub/player in motion.  A sub is allowed to pass through the NZ to get to his side of the NZ.  In this play, he would still be the only player moving, so there is no shift here.  Nothing compels a singular player moving to stop and be set for one second before the snap, and there is no language that prohibits that from being a sub who becomes a player.  An no language compels an incoming sub/player to stop to become a back - only if he comes from a position on the line.  He didn't - he came from off the field. 
But, like I said, if we do our job correctly, we don't let the ball get snapped until B has had a chance to recognize the substitution and, likewise, make a substitution.  That should give Team B ample opportunity to make a substitution, and make sure this guy gets covered.

Am I saying this should be allowed?  Not at all.  I'm just saying the current rule language does not prohibit the scenario given. The suggested rule addition would solve this problem, totally, if that is what the rules makers want.  Easy.  Just do it.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 15, 2019, 09:09:26 PM
What shift?  A shift requires two or more players to be moving simultaneously.  In this play, the sub simply enters the field, from his team area, AFTER all of the players on the field have been stopped for more than one second.  There is no shift here - only a single sub/player in motion.  A sub is allowed to pass through the NZ to get to his side of the NZ.  In this play, he would still be the only player moving, so there is no shift here.  Nothing compels a singular player moving to stop and be set for one second before the snap, and there is no language that prohibits that from being a sub who becomes a player.  An no language compels an incoming sub/player to stop to become a back - only if he comes from a position on the line.  He didn't - he came from off the field. 
But, like I said, if we do our job correctly, we don't let the ball get snapped until B has had a chance to recognize the substitution and, likewise, make a substitution.  That should give Team B ample opportunity to make a substitution, and make sure this guy gets covered.

Am I saying this should be allowed?  Not at all.  I'm just saying the current rule language does not prohibit the scenario given. The suggested rule addition would solve this problem, totally, if that is what the rules makers want.  Easy.  Just do it.

Robert

I think you are manipulating the rule and using an interpretation to support a point you don't believe should be true. The substitute becomes a player at some point and once he does he must have been set for 1 second prior to the snap. Period. It's not more complicated than that. In order to be legally in motion at the snap he needs to establish himself as a back (needs to be set to be a back) so he's also guilty of illegal motion.

The rule is fine the way it is and to try to interpret it otherwise is trying to show you are smarter than everyone else. You are too respected on this board to become that guy.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Navcom on March 16, 2019, 12:37:00 PM
These were challenging

A 4/10 @ A-30. Team A in scrimmage kick formation punts the ball. B17, who is @ B-30 to receive the kick,
(a)  gives a valid fair catch signal.
(b) gives an invalid fair catch signal.
(c) gives no signal.
B17 then muffs the kick up into the air while still having an opportunity to complete the catch. After the muff A37 contacts B17 @ B-32 before B17 completes the catch @ B-33 on one knee.

A 2/5 @ B-14 on the left hash. A11 throws a pass to A88. As the pass is in the air, B18 hooks and turns A88
(a) @ B-1 right hash,
(b) @ B-4 right hash,
(c) @ the left side zone in the end zone,
resulting in an incomplete pass.

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on March 16, 2019, 01:34:28 PM
What shift?  A shift requires two or more players to be moving simultaneously.

True, but the rule 7-1-2-a says that after a shift and before the snap, all team A players must come to an absolute stop. I think the incoming uniformed squad member must fulfill this requirement after he becomes a player, if he becomes a player after a shift.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 16, 2019, 01:37:07 PM
These were challenging

A 4/10 @ A-30. Team A in scrimmage kick formation punts the ball. B17, who is @ B-30 to receive the kick,
(a)  gives a valid fair catch signal.
(b) gives an invalid fair catch signal.
(c) gives no signal.
B17 then muffs the kick up into the air while still having an opportunity to complete the catch. After the muff A37 contacts B17 @ B-32 before B17 completes the catch @ B-33 on one knee.

A 2/5 @ B-14 on the left hash. A11 throws a pass to A88. As the pass is in the air, B18 hooks and turns A88
(a) @ B-1 right hash,
(b) @ B-4 right hash,
(c) @ the left side zone in the end zone,
resulting in an incomplete pass.

NAVCOM,
You probably already know - in the first question, there are two different results for the three scenarios presented.

In A), since it was a valid fair catch signal, B17 is protected with the "extended kick catch interference" privilege after the muff.  So, A37 is guilty of Kick Catch Interference.  Since this is a punt, the 15-yard penalty would be enforced from the spot of the foul, the B-32, so the next down will be B, 1/10, B-47, GC=snap, PC=25.  (As a side note, before enforcement of the penalty, the ball belongs to Team B at the spot where B17 first touched the ball, which would seem to the B-30.)
In B), since it was an invalid fair catch signal, there is no extended KCI protection, the contact by A37 is legal, since it occurred after B17 touched the ball (and we have no indication that he violated the 1 yard clear area in front of B17).  There is no foul, so the next down will be B, 1/10, B-33, GC=snap, PC=25.
In C), as in B), there is no extended KCI protection, so there is no foul, and the result is the same as B): B, 1/10, B-33, GC=snap, PC=25.

In the second question, there are also two different results for the three scenarios presented.
In A), the previous spot is inside the B-17, and the spot of the foul is beyond the B-2 yard line, so the penalty will be enforced from the previous spot - laterally between the hash marks as well as the yard line, to the 2 yard line, with a first down for A.  The next down will be A, 1/G, B-2 (left hash), GC=snap, PC=25.
In B), the previous spot is inside the B-17, and the spot of the foul is outside the B-2 yard line, so the penalty is a first down at the spot of the foul, both yard line and laterally between the hash marks.  So, the next down will be A, 1/G, B-4 (right hash), GC=snap, PC=25.
In C), as in A), the previous spot is inside the B-17, and the spot of the foul is beyond the B-2 yard line, so the penalty will be enforced from the previous spot - laterally between the hash marks as well as the yard line, to the 2 yard line, with a first down for A.  The next down will be A, 1/G, B-2 (left hash), GC=snap, PC=25.

I have always used the expression, "It's 2:15," to remember the yard line enforcement for DPI.  "It's" sorta sounds like "S", for 'spot of the foul;' "2" represents the B-2; and "15" represents the maximum distance penalty for DPI.  In other words, the penalty will be enforced at the "spot," the "2," or a full 15 yards - whichever comes first.  Others probably have better "reminders," but that has always worked for me.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Navcom on March 16, 2019, 04:58:06 PM
 thank you sir......
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Navcom on March 17, 2019, 10:40:15 AM
Gents, I had some trouble with these. I guess I'm get a bit convoluted with everything.

 A 3/G @B-7. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne at the B2 and places the ball over the pylon while crossing the goal line extended and his first contact the ground is out of bounds two yards beyond the goal line.

 A 3/7 @ A-30. A17 throws a forward pass and then B68 takes three steps and charges into A17, showing no attempt to avoid contact. A88 completes the catch and is tackled @A40.

 A 2/6 @ A-44. A11 hands the ball off to A32, A77 holds B92 @ A-45, A32 is tackled at the
(a)   A46.
(b)   A43.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 17, 2019, 11:39:17 AM
A 3/G @B-7. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne at the B2 and places the ball over the pylon while crossing the goal line extended and his first contact the ground is out of bounds two yards beyond the goal line.
This rule has evolved a lot over the years but finally landed on the current version a few years ago. As Rogers explained it, if you want to get a touchdown, you have to get something in the end zone. The only time the goal line is extended is if your body touches something in the end zone including the pylon. It could be the hand touching the pylon as long as the ball has crossed the goal line extended before the hand touches the pylon. In this play, the ball is over the pylon before he touches out of bounds so you have a touchdown.

A 3/7 @ A-30. A17 throws a forward pass and then B68 takes three steps and charges into A17, showing no attempt to avoid contact. A88 completes the catch and is tackled @A40.
A key thing with answering these questions is what rule is the question trying to test. This one is enforcement spot for roughing the passer. The way the question is written it's obvious there is RPS (three steps, charges into, no attempt to avoid). RPS is either previous spot or end of last run enforcement. That can get tricky if there are multiple runs, change of possession or fumble into and out of the end zone. In this case it's just a standard play. A has the choice of previous spot or end or run but will obviously take end of run. A 1/10 at the B45.

A 2/6 @ A-44. A11 hands the ball off to A32, A77 holds B92 @ A-45, A32 is tackled at the
(a)   A46.
(b)   A43.
This is another penalty enforcement spot question. In (a) the run ends beyond the LOS but in (b) it's behind. The basic spot for (a) is end of run but in (b) it's previous spot. Using 3-and-1 enforcement you then look at the location of the foul beyond the NZ in relation to the basic spot. In (a) it's behind the basic spot so this is your enforcement spot: A 2/15 at the A-35. In (b) it's beyond so the basic spot is your enforcement spot: A 2/16 at the A-34. B could decline the penalty in either instance as well.

These questions become much easier the more you UNDERSTAND the rules. That's different than knowing the rules. That takes time. If you are still new you won't understand them fully as well. Keep answering quiz questions like this, review them with experienced officials in your area in addition to these online forums, and most importantly get on the field as much as possible. Many of these rules don't stick to your memory until they happen to you on the field.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 17, 2019, 11:47:23 AM
Gents, I had some trouble with these. I guess I'm get a bit convoluted with everything.

 A 3/G @B-7. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne at the B2 and places the ball over the pylon while crossing the goal line extended and his first contact the ground is out of bounds two yards beyond the goal line.

 A 3/7 @ A-30. A17 throws a forward pass and then B68 takes three steps and charges into A17, showing no attempt to avoid contact. A88 completes the catch and is tackled @A40.

 A 2/6 @ A-44. A11 hands the ball off to A32, A77 holds B92 @ A-45, A32 is tackled at the
(a)   A46.
(b)   A43.

NAVCOM,

An airborne BC gets progress to the spot where the ball crosses the sideline.  If the BC is able to get the ball to break the plane of the goal line over or between the goal line pylons, then that will yield a TD.  TD, A, Try, B-3, GC=not running, PC=40-starts with dead ball.
Be sure to study the bulletins with respect to the differences between an airborne BC and a BC on his feet.

On the second question, I believe they are trying to be sure you understand that the penalty for the RTP is added to the end of the last run.  This is clearly RTP, but the description does not rise too the level of targeting.  Either way, the 15-yard penalty would be added to the the dead-ball spot, since that is beyond the NZ (9-1-9-a & b, comment at end of paragraph b), plus a first down for A.  A, 1/10, B-45, GC=RFP, PC=25.

On the third question, they are trying to be sure you understand the penalty enforcement for A fouls during a running play, with respect to the difference between fouls by A beyond the NZ, or behind the NZ.  For a), the end of the run is beyond the NZ, and the spot of the foul is also beyond the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the end of A32's run (A-46).  By the 3 & 1 principle, the penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul, the A-45, to yield A, 2/15, A-35, GC=RFP, PC=25.
For b), the end of the run is behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the previous spot, and, by rule, 9-3-3-b-Penalty, the penalty is enforced at the previous spot, to yield A, 2/16, A-34, GC=RFP, PC=25.
99% of the time, Team B will accept the penalty in either case. However, I would not call this choice "obvious;" under some circumstances Team B might want to decline the penalty, to bring up 3rd down.  I'd be sure to get Team B's choice on this one.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 17, 2019, 12:00:16 PM
NAVCOM,

Attached is the bulletin regarding an airborne player to which I referenced.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Navcom on March 17, 2019, 04:30:18 PM
you guys are the best. I'm really trying to get this down. I will let you know of my outcome, good or bad.

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 17, 2019, 05:11:05 PM
you guys are the best. I'm really trying to get this down. I will let you know of my outcome, good or bad.

We’re pullin’ for ya.  It will be good.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Magician on March 18, 2019, 09:29:34 AM
NAVCOM,

Attached is the bulletin regarding an airborne player to which I referenced.

Robert
That bulletin is no longer valid. The rule has been updated since then to remove any concern over differences between airborne and grounder runner. I saw Rogers speak about it at a clinic and his point was "we need the player to get his body or the ball in the end zone to get a TD.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 19, 2019, 06:44:13 AM
All, please note the language of 4-2-4 is nearly identical today as it was in 2011; the only difference is the AR references.

And please note that all play situations listed under the "Airborne Ball Carrier" section of 2011 CFO Bulletin Intentional Grounding/Airborne Ball Carrier:Extending the Goal-Line Plane have been, and are still, ARs (see AR 8-2-1-V thru VIII), since 2011.

Also note that another bulletin that same year (2011), Forward Progress for Ball Carrier Out of Bounds, interpreted that a ball carrier striding across the sideline is also airborne; thus, the goal line is not extended beyond the pylon for him.  If he can make the ball (in possession) pass inside or over the pylon before he touches the ground OB, touchdown (because the ball broke the plane of the goal line before it crossed the sideline) (AR 8-2-1-V).  If the ball is outside the pylon as he strides across the sideline and then he touches the ground OB, not a touchdown - he doesn't get the goal line extended outside the pylon (and the ball crossed the sideline without breaking the plane of the goal line).

It boils down to this:  If neither the BC nor the ball touch the pylon or ground in the end zone (before any part of the BC or ball touch something OB other than the pylon), the BC doesn't get the goal line extended (outside the pylon).  But, he does get the pylon, including the goal line (extended) directly above the pylon.  So, if he can manage to get the ball over the pylon while running or diving out of bounds, that's a TD.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bossman72 on March 19, 2019, 08:58:50 AM
Also note that another bulletin that same year (2011), Forward Progress for Ball Carrier Out of Bounds, interpreted that a ball carrier striding across the sideline is also airborne.

As a LOS guy, I really wish they would update this rule in the rulebook.  The way the rule reads today (with NO AR to back up this important bulletin), when the runner strides across the sideline, we are to spot the ball where the ball is located when his foot hits the ground OOB and not where the ball crosses the sideline.

That's not the way I officiate it, but that's the way the rule reads.  This can be confusing to newer NCAA officials who don't have the 2011 bulletin.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 19, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
As a LOS guy, I really wish they would update this rule in the rulebook.  The way the rule reads today (with NO AR to back up this important bulletin), when the runner strides across the sideline, we are to spot the ball where the ball is located when his foot hits the ground OOB and not where the ball crosses the sideline.

That's not the way I officiate it, but that's the way the rule reads.  This can be confusing to newer NCAA officials who don't have the 2011 bulletin.

4-2-4-d Exception would seem to be the applicable rule:
The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal line sif the point of progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1-VII) (Exception :  When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.  (A.R. 8-2-1-II-1III and V-IX).

(2011 CFO Bulletin)
Forward Progress for Ball Carrier out Bounds
Example 4.  Ball carrier A22 sweeps around left end and heads toward the sideline.  His right foot touches the ground inbounds very close to the sideline at the A-30.  As he continues to run his stride is such that his left foot then lands out of bounds at the A-32.  The ball crosses the sideline at the A-31, and A22 holds the ball such that when his left foot touches the ground the most forward point of the ball is at the A-33.
Ruling:  In this play the Exception to Rule 4-2-4-d is in effect.  By interpretation A22 is airborne as he crosses the sideline because he crosses it in stride.  The crossing point is at the A-31, so Team A will put the ball in play at the A-31.

Bossman, the rule and the example would seem to say that the progress spot is where the ball crossed the sideline.  Have you got something else that says to spot it otherwise?

(I do think I remember some confusing questions on the CFO test last year, related to progress.  But I don't feel like looking those up.)

Robert

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bossman72 on March 19, 2019, 02:26:24 PM
Bossman, the rule and the example would seem to say that the progress spot is where the ball crossed the sideline.  Have you got something else that says to spot it otherwise?

No, I agree with you.  That's how it should be officiated.

However, people don't have access to bulletins from 2011.  If you pretend that bulletin never existed (like for a new college football official), how would you read that rule?

My point was that they should fix the rule... where airborne means airborne and a striding ball carrier is a striding ball carrier.  Explicitly state that in the rule.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 19, 2019, 03:02:53 PM
My point was that they should fix the rule... where airborne means airborne and a striding ball carrier is a striding ball carrier.  Explicitly state that in the rule.

Yes, I concur that the language should be explicit and clear.  A new official would, indeed, likely conclude that an airborne BC is distinct from an upright, striding BC (which it was, prior to the 2011 bulletin).  So, the wording would be more like "airborne" INCLUDES a ball carrier striding across a sideline, to match the bulletin (if that is what they want to be permanent).

Good discussion.  Thank you.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on March 22, 2019, 09:16:24 AM
I agree that it's to say the least non-intuitive to treat striding players as "airborne." That is not what most English speakers familiar with football would assume. Based on the common connotation of the word "airborne" and the way ball carriers typically play football, almost everyone's most likely guess would be that "airborne" means a player who is diving or jumping as opposed to running on his feet.

So rather than awkwardly define "airborne" to include "striding" in an eight-year-old bulletin, wouldn't it be easier to define forward progress in terms of "airborne OR striding" players, and spell it out in 4-2-4-d explicitly?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 22, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
I agree that it's to say the least non-intuitive to treat striding players as "airborne." That is not what most English speakers familiar with football would assume. Based on the common connotation of the word "airborne" and the way ball carriers typically play football, almost everyone's most likely guess would be that "airborne" means a player who is diving or jumping as opposed to running on his feet.

So rather than awkwardly define "airborne" to include "striding" in an eight-year-old bulletin, wouldn't it be easier to define forward progress in terms of "airborne OR striding" players, and spell it out in 4-2-4-d explicitly?

Yeah, probably a number of ways to skin that cat, but it is a cat that needs skinning.

Robert

PS  If I didn't have a day job, I'd weed through the bulletins since around 2000 and try to figure out which ones, or which parts of each them, are, indeed, superseded or have become null & void.  But that's a task.  Maybe even something the Sec-Ed should do on an annual basis.

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on March 22, 2019, 12:34:32 PM
What needs to happen is to not have bulletins from any year other than the current year. The sec-ed needs to go through all currently available bulletins and determine which are still valid and which are not. The ones that are still valid need to then be added to the A.R. section of the rule book. Then each year as rules and interpretations changes, the sec-ed can determine which ARs to remove. If a bulletin is issued during the season, it either gets added as an AR the next year or gets disregarded. That way officials only need a current rule book and the current year’s bulletins.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 22, 2019, 06:07:02 PM
What needs to happen is to not have bulletins from any year other than the current year. The sec-ed needs to go through all currently available bulletins and determine which are still valid and which are not. The ones that are still valid need to then be added to the A.R. section of the rule book. Then each year as rules and interpretations changes, the sec-ed can determine which ARs to remove. If a bulletin is issued during the season, it either gets added as an AR the next year or gets disregarded. That way officials only need a current rule book and the current year’s bulletins.

Concur.  (Think it’ll happen? 🙂)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on March 22, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
What needs to happen is to not have bulletins from any year other than the current year. The sec-ed needs to go through all currently available bulletins and determine which are still valid and which are not. The ones that are still valid need to then be added to the A.R. section of the rule book. Then each year as rules and interpretations changes, the sec-ed can determine which ARs to remove. If a bulletin is issued during the season, it either gets added as an AR the next year or gets disregarded. That way officials only need a current rule book and the current year’s bulletins.

That's close to what we've been told actually happens. The bulletins' priority "clarification(s)" (rules changes and AR edits) are added/edited into the existing rules when a new book is issued and only the current ones ( 1 or 2 years of bulletins) still apply.  Those "go away" when the next printed book is officially issued.  We do not and can not reasonably maintain our own training level and train new officials based in part on an endless supply of bulletins, some of which change previous ones.  That being said, for us high school officials here in MA, it's a bit of a moot point.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on March 25, 2019, 12:58:08 PM
Back on track:

3/10, B-15, 3:00 (2), A=0, B=7.  A11 advances to the B-1 where B99 grasps A11's facemask, pulling the facemask completely off A11's head, just before A11 is able to extend the ball over the goal line, as he is also falling to the ground.

Ruling:
(Include play clock and game clock status)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on March 25, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
The ball is dead when A11’s helmet comes completely off. The penalty for the FMM is half the distance from the end of the run, the B-1. So final ruling is 1/G B-.5, GC on RFP, PC 25.

Next question: same play, but replay can clearly see that the helmet was still partially on A11’s head when the nose of the ball broke the plane of the goal line. Can the RO stop the game to make this a TD?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on March 26, 2019, 01:31:42 AM
Next question: same play, but replay can clearly see that the helmet was still partially on A11’s head when the nose of the ball broke the plane of the goal line. Can the RO stop the game to make this a TD?

We don't work replay, so a guess: this is a forward progress question with respect to the goal line, so yes, it is a reviewable play.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 06, 2019, 01:56:13 PM
This one should be easy, but I might be trying to trick you.

Kickoff, A-35, 12:00 (2), A=7, B=0.  B11 catches the kick and is advancing the ball at the B-30 when B99 and B88 block A77 at the B-35.  B99's block is from the side and at the shoulder of A77.  B88's block is from the front and at the thigh of A77.  There is no delay between the blocks.  B11 advances the ball across A's goal line.

Ruling (include all clock status information):
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on April 06, 2019, 03:43:26 PM
Chop block, 15 yards spot of the foul (B-30).  1st and 10 for B at the B-15 yard line. 25 second play clock, game clock on the snap (pure result of the play was a TD).
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 06, 2019, 04:37:32 PM
Yeah, easy.  But it reminds us that a chop block can happen someplace other than around the NZ during a scrimmage down. 
B88’s block would have been illegal, regardless of the combination block, since BBW is prohibited during free kicks, period.  I would think the covering official would have seen the low block, and flagged it, without even thinking about the high block.
Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 08, 2019, 06:59:51 AM
Try this:

Kickoff, A-35, 6:40 (2), A=7, B=0.  A11 kicks the ball high and it lands at the B-15 and bounces sharply toward B's end zone.  At the B-2, B99 reaches to recover the ball, but it deflects off his fingertips (H signals clock to start) and continues into B's end zone.  Team B players do not pursue the ball, but A88 runs hard toward the ball.  The ball is about 8 yard deep in the end zone as A88 overruns the ball and steps beyond the end line, but immediately returns inbounds with both feet, and falls on the still-moving ball (firmly grasping and holding it) in the end zone.

Ruling:
A) Touchback; B, 1/10, B-25.

B) Touchdown for A; A, Try, B-3.

C) Other (explain): _______________________

 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on April 08, 2019, 07:10:32 AM
C)

As A88 establishes himself inbounds before touching the ball the recovery is legal. Result of the play is a touchdown for A. But, A88 fouls immediately when he returns inbounds, and team B will have the option of enforcing the penalty from the previous spot, which they will do.

A rekick from A-30.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on April 08, 2019, 09:10:16 AM
Agree with everything except B having an option. The subsequent dead ball does not belong to B and the result was not a touchback so there is no option. The only available enforcement is previous spot.

It also may be important to remind folks this is NOT illegal touching, so B does not have the option of a touchback here. This rule for Team A players going out of bounds on kick plays is completely unrelated to illegal touching of kicks as well as as the illegal touching rule regarding eligible Team A receivers going out of bounds.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 08, 2019, 02:15:17 PM
Agree with everything except B having an option. The subsequent dead ball does not belong to B and the result was not a touchback so there is no option. The only available enforcement is previous spot.


I can’t truly speak for Kalle, but, by “option,” I think he meant the option of either declining the penalty, which would result in a TD for A, or accepting the penalty, which would be enforced at the previous spot.

But, yes, this is an “illegal return” foul, as much as it does not fit the model of the intent of this rule.  The rule was intended to prevent A player’s from running OB to avoid blocks, or to disappear within his own team area, then return to the field to recover an onside or pooch kick, or travel well downfield without being blocked, then return inbounds to make the tackle.  Running past the end line gains an A player zero advantage.  Or even OB at the sideline in the end zone.  I wish they would change the rule to say an “A player of team A that goes OB at a sideline, and between the goal lines,...”

Happened in my conference back in 2011 or so.  Crew ruled TD.  Ouch.  They got strong criticism, when, in fact, it was just an A player making a good play.  But, so it goes.
Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on April 09, 2019, 03:21:27 AM
I can’t truly speak for Kalle, but, by “option,” I think he meant the option of either declining the penalty, which would result in a TD for A, or accepting the penalty, which would be enforced at the previous spot.

Yes, any penalty may be declined, but in this case I would not bother offering the option as the choice is obvious.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on April 09, 2019, 06:30:49 PM
Borrowed from a thread over on the NFHS board.

B99 intercepts A's pass at the B-4 and his momentum carries him into his end zone. He subsequently fumbles the ball from the end zone and it rolls out of bounds at the B-2. During B99's run, B15 clipped at B's 10 yard line.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Zap on April 10, 2019, 08:41:23 PM
B's ball 1/10 from the B-2. The B-2 not because of the ball going out of bounds there but with the enforcement of the clip. Forward fumble OOB returns to spot of the fumble. Ball dead in EZ off a momentum goes back to the spot of possession. Enforce 1/2 distance. Snap/:25
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 10, 2019, 09:13:10 PM
B's ball 1/10 from the B-2. The B-2 not because of the ball going out of bounds there but with the enforcement of the clip. Forward fumble OOB returns to spot of the fumble. Ball dead in EZ off a momentum goes back to the spot of possession. Enforce 1/2 distance. Snap/:25

Concur.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 11, 2019, 12:38:11 PM
Welcome, Zap, to our forum. I hope you find it both interesting and educational.

HARVARD 6, YALE 1

HOW SO ???
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on April 11, 2019, 01:30:17 PM
HARVARD 6, YALE 1

HOW SO ???


Harvard scored a touchdown. On the try from the B-3, sophomore long snapper Clark Kent accidentally snapped the ball 108 yards backward.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on April 12, 2019, 01:13:49 AM
Related question: which final scores - apart from all ties - are impossible in a game?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 12, 2019, 05:40:01 AM
Related question: which final scores - apart from all ties - are impossible in a game?

2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 7-1. 
Since a 1-point safety can only happen during a Try, the opponent would have to have at least 6 points.  But, if Team A scores a TD and a 1-point field goal on the Try, team B couldn’t suffer a 1-point safety.  Otherwise, everything else would seem to be mathematically possible.
1-0 is not possible through play, but can be the awarded score in the case of a forfeit awarded to a team not ahead in score.

That’s what I see.  Did I miss something?

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on April 12, 2019, 06:49:03 AM
Harvard scored a touchdown. On the try from the B-3, sophomore long snapper Clark Kent accidentally snapped the ball 108 yards backward.

A more plausible scenario would be that on the try A12 muffs the snap, B33 recovers and runs almost to a score but fumbles at A-1, A55 bats the subsequent loose ball backwards in the field of play, and A99 recovers grounded in team A's end zone.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on April 12, 2019, 07:44:44 AM
Robert, I agree with the impossible scores.

As far as a 1 point safety conceded by the offense, something like this could happen. https://youtu.be/QC3t5W1zlfQ
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on April 12, 2019, 08:32:26 AM
As far as a 1 point safety conceded by the offense, something like this could happen. https://youtu.be/QC3t5W1zlfQ

Wow. Usually you have at least one bat or kick but looks like all touches were real muffs.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 12, 2019, 09:02:48 AM
Harvard scored a touchdown. On the try from the B-3, sophomore long snapper Clark Kent accidentally snapped the ball 108 yards backward.
aWaRd aWaRd Good job, Moringrise, unlikely but more likely would be :

(1) PAT blocked;
(2) on return, R fumbles deep in K territory;
(3) K player illegally kicks, bats scoops up ball and carries back into own EZ.

Clark Kent was capable of much, but being accepted at Harvard might be a stretch!
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 12, 2019, 09:16:02 AM
Robert, I agree with the impossible scores.

As far as a 1 point safety conceded by the offense, something like this could happen. https://youtu.be/QC3t5W1zlfQ

Cool video.  I have two things to say about that:
1) For anybody, but particularly HS officials, please notice the exceptional hustle on the part of the R and C to stay in advance of the ball/play as long as they possibly could, and continue to hustle until the ball became dead.  Also, the L appears to really hustle and probably would have been on the goal line, had the ball traveled that far.  He isn't in the view, but my guess is that the H was also in great position.  Great job.
2) (I can say this, because I'm not there any longer.)  Too bad this didn't happen when Sonny was there.  He'd have still tried to find some way to blame us for this debacle.  What a piece of ... uh - "work."

Robert

 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 12, 2019, 09:23:50 AM
aWaRd aWaRd Good job, Moringrise, unlikely but more likely would be :

(1) PAT blocked;
(2) on return, R fumbles deep in K territory;
(3) K player illegally kicks, bats scoops up ball and carries back into own EZ.

Clark Kent was capable of much, but being accepted at Harvard might be a stretch!

Maybe Ma Kent had a slush fund she could have used to get Clark a spot on the philately team.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 12, 2019, 10:08:04 AM
Maybe Ma Kent had a slush fund she could have used to get Clark a spot on the philately team.
She could have "donated" some Kriptonite (sp?)  to the Harvard Rock Museum in ensure Clark's acceptance ! With his X-ray vision, cheating would become easy once in the classroom.  LOL 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 12, 2019, 12:24:47 PM
She could have "donated" some Kriptonite (sp?)  to the Harvard Rock Museum in ensure Clark's acceptance ! With his X-ray vision, cheating would become easy once in the classroom.  LOL

Ah, but we digress.... :)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Zap on April 15, 2019, 03:28:30 PM
4/2@ 50. The snap goes over the punters head and he gains possession at the A-30 where he then trys to still kick the ball. he is hit and fumbles at the A-30. The ball rolls to the A-45 where it is muffed to the B-48 where A66 kicks the rolling ball backwards oob at the A-35. Ruling?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on April 15, 2019, 03:37:53 PM
I'd have 1st & 10 for team B at the dead ball spot (the A-35).  Team B will decline the penalty.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Zap on April 15, 2019, 06:02:20 PM
I'd have 1st & 10 for team B at the dead ball spot (the A-35).  Team B will decline the penalty.

Close.... You are right about the decline of the penalty part. This was a question that stumped our rules study group and we realize this play has a .0000452% chance of happening is still a good discussion play.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on April 15, 2019, 07:23:52 PM
Fumbled at the A-30, out of bounds at the A-35. That’s a forward fumble out of bounds which comes back to the spot of the fumble. B 1st and 10 at the A-30.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 15, 2019, 07:38:24 PM
Close....

Close, eh?  Hmmm.  Well, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll work through this.

Scrimmage play.
The ball carrier (and receiver of the snap) fumbles the ball from behind the NZ at the b-30 (the B-30 is end of that run).
The ball is still in Team A's team possession.
The ball travels to the A-45 (still behind the neutral zone, and still loose from the fumble).
The ball is muffed (irrelevant by whom, and a muff changes nothing).
The ball continues to travel to the B-48 (two yards beyond the NZ, which means almost nothing in this case).
At the B-48, A66 kicks the ball.  Since there is no mention of A66 gaining player possession, we can assume the ball was still loose when A66 kicked it.  A66's kick of the ball is a foul for illegally kicking the ball (10-yard penalty and loss of down, with Basic Spot enforcement).  However the illegal kicking foul did not change the status of the ball - it is still loose from the fumble.
The ball, still alive, travels out of bounds at the A-35 (15 yards behind the NZ).
The ball becomes dead.
Since the spot where the ball went OB was in advance of the end of spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the artificial dead-ball spot - the spot of the fumble.
Since the ball is dead behind the line-to-gain, and the previous down was fourth down, the result of the play is Team B's ball at the artificial dead-ball spot.  The next play would be B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=snap.
Team B also has the option to accept the penalty for the Illegally Kicking the Ball.  The distance penalty is 10 yards.  The loss of down applies, so Team B will be awarded the ball, if they accept the penalty.  The penalty is enforced according to Basic Spot enforcement rules. The ball was loose from a fumble from behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  The foul occurred beyond the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot.  Thus, the penalty would yield B, 1/10, A-40, PC=25, GC=Snap. 
The result of the play is more advantageous for Team B than accepting the penalty.  So, Team B will decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Ah, that's closer.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Zap on April 15, 2019, 08:55:48 PM
Close, eh?  Hmmm.  Well, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll work through this.

Scrimmage play.
The ball carrier (and receiver of the snap) fumbles the ball from behind the NZ at the b-30 (the B-30 is end of that run).
The ball is still in Team A's team possession.
The ball travels to the A-45 (still behind the neutral zone, and still loose from the fumble).
The ball is muffed (irrelevant by whom, and a muff changes nothing).
The ball continues to travel to the B-48 (two yards beyond the NZ, which means almost nothing in this case).
At the B-48, A66 kicks the ball.  Since there is no mention of A66 gaining player possession, we can assume the ball was still loose when A66 kicked it.  A66's kick of the ball is a foul for illegally kicking the ball (10-yard penalty and loss of down, with Basic Spot enforcement).  However the illegal kicking foul did not change the status of the ball - it is still loose from the fumble.
The ball, still alive, travels out of bounds at the A-35 (15 yards behind the NZ).
The ball becomes dead.
Since the spot where the ball went OB was in advance of the end of spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the artificial dead-ball spot - the spot of the fumble.
Since the ball is dead behind the line-to-gain, and the previous down was fourth down, the result of the play is Team B's ball at the artificial dead-ball spot.  The next play would be B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=snap.
Team B also has the option to accept the penalty for the Illegally Kicking the Ball.  The distance penalty is 10 yards.  The loss of down applies, so Team B will be awarded the ball, if they accept the penalty.  The penalty is enforced according to Basic Spot enforcement rules. The ball was loose from a fumble from behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  The foul occurred beyond the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot.  Thus, the penalty would yield B, 1/10, A-40, PC=25, GC=Snap. 
The result of the play is more advantageous for Team B than accepting the penalty.  So, Team B will decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Ah, that's closer.

Robert

In those words.... yes.... if only I could have gotten it that quick when I had it presented to me last night.  ;) I learned from this question a process to break down these plays.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Etref on April 16, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
That is why Elvis made the big bucks!   ;D

Take the complicated and break it down.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 16, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
That is why Elvis made the big bucks!   ;D

Take the complicated and break it down.

We get paid? :o
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bctgp on April 16, 2019, 04:16:53 PM
do we still consider the end of related runs by Team A behind the LOS? We wouldn't have a bean bag down right?  Just trying to clarify in my mind.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on April 16, 2019, 05:27:50 PM
Yes, we should be bean bagging all fumbles. This play is exactly why we need a bag down. We need to know whether the ball went out of bounds behind or beyond the spot if the fumble. And for penalty enforcement, we need to know whether the run ended behind or beyond the neutral zone. Obviously in this case that wouldn’t be much of a question, but it could be on some plays.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 16, 2019, 06:27:06 PM
Yes, we should be bean bagging all fumbles. This play is exactly why we need a bag down. We need to know whether the ball went out of bounds behind or beyond the spot if the fumble. And for penalty enforcement, we need to know whether the run ended behind or beyond the neutral zone. Obviously in this case that wouldn’t be much of a question, but it could be on some plays.

What he said.  👆👍
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 21, 2019, 10:47:41 AM
Gonna play with your minds a bit.  These will keep you busy for a little while. 

You must read these statements thoroughly, and understand all of the related yard lines.
“Grounded” means some part of the player’s body other than hand(s) of foot (feet) are touching the ground. “Tackled” means the ball carrier is grounded by an opponent or his progress is stopped (ball is dead).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/10, A-40, 8:00 (1), running, A=0, B=7.
A11's legal punt is airborne when B99 makes a valid fair catch signal at the B-30, and is at the B-30 when:

a)   B99 completes the catch at the B-30.
b)   B99 completes the catch at the B-30 and is immediately tackled by A55.
c)   B80 completes the catch at the B-30.
d)   B80 completes the catch at the B-30 and is immediately tackled by A55.

e)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-32.
f)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-32, and is immediately tackled by A55.
g)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-28.
h)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-28, and is immediately tackled by A55.
i)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-32.
j)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-32, and is immediately tackled by A55.
k)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-28.
l)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-28, and is immediately tackled by A55.

m)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-32.
n)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then immediately tackled by A55 at the B-32.
o)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-28.
p)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then tackled by A55 at the B-28.
q)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-32
r)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then tackled by A55 at the B-32.
s)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-28
t)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then tackled by A55 at the B-28.
u)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
v)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
w)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.
x)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.

y)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
z)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.
aa)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
bb)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.

cc)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32.  However, B-99 completes the catch at the B-31.
dd)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-29.  However, B-99 completes the catch at the B-28.
ee)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  B-80 completes the catch at the B-31.
ff)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-29, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  B-80 completes the catch at the B-28.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on April 22, 2019, 09:33:20 AM
First of all, thank you for not making this be a free kick inside the B-25... phew. Second of all, correct me if I'm wrong and I'll edit this post to cross out anything incorrect. EDIT: I'm already wrong, see below

The main principles:
- It's not a true fair catch unless the catcher is also a valid fair catch signaler. (I like the phrase "true fair catch" to distinguish from all the other times we shut the play down following a signal of any kind)
- A valid fair catch SIGNALER gets protection after a muff.
- A true fair catch CATCHER gets protection after the ball becomes dead.
- Nobody gets protection after the kick hits the ground.
- The succeeding spot after a true fair catch is where the catcher first touched it (or B-25 on deep free kicks).
- EDIT: The succeeding spot after any B catch is where a valid fair catch signaler first touched it (or B-25 on deep free kicks).
- Live-ball KCI is enforced from the spot of the foul (B-25 on deep free kicks; B-20 in the end zone on a scrimmage kick). Dead-ball KCI (which only happens after a true fair catch) is enforced from the succeeding spot.

a) B's @ B-30.
b) B's @ B-45. DB KCI (rule 6-5).
c) B's @ B-30.
d) B's @ B-30. No KCI for non-signaler.
e) B's @ B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC (valid fair catch) signaler.
f) B's @ B-45. DB KCI (rule 6-5). Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler. Enforce from succeeding spot.
g) B's @ B-30.
h) B's @ B-45.
i) B's @ B-32 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler.
j) B's @ B-32 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler. No KCI for non-signaler.
k) B's @ B-28 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler.
l) B's @ B-28 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler. No KCI for non-signaler.
m) B's @ B-32.
n) B's @ B-32. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
o) B's @ B-28.
p) B's @ B-28. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
q) B's @ B-32.
r) B's @ B-32. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
s) B's @ B-28.
t) B's @ B-28. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
u, v, w, x) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag. Note below
y, z, aa, bb) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
cc, dd, ee, ff) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
cc) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
dd) B's @ B-44. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
ee) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
ff) B's @ B-44. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.

Note: When VFC signaler B99 is within reach of the muffed airborne kick, and A55 muffs it, I'm interpreting this as A55 interfering with the unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 22, 2019, 10:51:20 AM
Morningrise,

I believe all of your "result" answers are correct, EXCEPT for "dd" and "ff".  Look at those again, and see if you used the correct spot of the foul.

Also, it may not be a bad way to look at things personally, but using the expression "dead-ball KCI" is probably not the way to express things, since that can't happen.  KCI can only happen while the ball is alive.  Blocking or tackling a player that has completed a fair catch is just that - tackling or blocking a player that has completed a fair catch.  Yes, it is dead-ball. But it isn't "interference."  That's how the announcement should go: "Personal Foul, Number 55, kicking team - tackling a player that has completed a fair catch.  That's a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul.  First down, West Central."

Robert

PS  Next, we'll throw in invalid signals....
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on April 22, 2019, 01:37:34 PM
Also, it may not be a bad way to look at things personally, but using the expression "dead-ball KCI" is probably not the way to express things, since that can't happen.  KCI can only happen while the ball is alive.  Blocking or tackling a player that has completed a fair catch is just that - tackling or blocking a player that has completed a fair catch.  Yes, it is dead-ball. But it isn't "interference."  That's how the announcement should go: "Personal Foul, Number 55, kicking team - tackling a player that has completed a fair catch.  That's a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul.  First down, West Central."

Ah yes, now I see, contact after a fair catch violates 6-5-5 and the signals are S7-S38 (dead ball, PF) - whereas contact before a catch violates 6-4-1 and the signal is S33 (PI/KCI), not S38.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on April 22, 2019, 01:40:17 PM
I believe all of your "result" answers are correct, EXCEPT for "dd" and "ff".  Look at those again, and see if you used the correct spot of the foul.

Noted and modified.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on April 22, 2019, 03:23:34 PM
Ah yes, now I see, contact after a fair catch violates 6-5-5 and the signals are S7-S38 (dead ball, PF) - whereas contact before a catch violates 6-4-1 and the signal is S33 (PI/KCI), not S38.

And the announcement should have started with, "After the down, personal foul..."

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on May 02, 2019, 08:14:55 AM
An easy one...

4/10, B-15, second possession of the second extra period, A=20, B=23.  In an apparent field goal formation (legal scrimmage kick formation), all 11 Team A players are set and motionless for over two seconds.   Back A99 is positioned approximately three yards behind the neutral zone, and behind the left offensive tackle.  Realizing he needs to be in a wingback position, A99 begins to move at angle toward the wingback position (no false start).  He has moved forward about 2 yards, nearing his intended final position, but is still moving forward when the ball is snapped.
A11's field goal attempt is blocked, and lands at the B-10.  B80 recovers the ball while on his feet, and begins to advance.  B80 is at  the B-15 when B77 blocks A66 below the waist at the B-18.  B-15 advances the ball across team A's goal line.

Ruling:
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on May 02, 2019, 03:07:38 PM
Because A99 is moving forward at the snap we have a foul for illegal motion. Team B then gains possession. Team B then illegally blocks below the waist (after a COP as well as on a kick down). Because Team B gained possession before fouling, these fouls cancel, the down is not replayed, and the series is over. The apparent score by B80 is also canceled. The game is over with a final score of Team B winning 23-20.

This is one of those times that R’s need to be very careful with the wording of their announcement. These fouls cancel. They don’t offset. If you say offset, people are going to be wondering why we’re not replaying the down.

Next play: same play but in regulation.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on May 02, 2019, 03:49:24 PM
This is one of those times that R’s need to be very careful with the wording of their announcement. These fouls cancel. They don’t offset. If you say offset, people are going to be wondering why we’re not replaying the down.

Yes.  I think the announcement would be something like:

"There were fouls by both team during the down.  Before the kick, illegal motion, number 99, kicking team.  During the return, illegal block below the waist, number 77, return team.  By rule, the penalties for these fouls are canceled, there is no score, and the down is not repeated.  Therefore, the game is over."

Then run like shells (read between the "s"s).   :)

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on May 02, 2019, 03:53:24 PM
Next play: same play but in regulation.

Another easy one, but a good reminder.  I'll clean my hands of this one and let someone else answer.  (See what I did there?) ;D

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on May 03, 2019, 12:09:45 AM
Another easy one, but a good reminder.  I'll clean my hands of this one and let someone else answer.  (See what I did there?) ;D

Ha :)

Team B has a choice. They can (but will not) take offsetting penalties and repeat the down. Or, as they did not foul before last gaining team possession, they can decline all team A fouls and keep the ball after enforcement of their penalty. Team B 1/10 B-9. (Theoretically team A then has the option to decline the team B penalty, but they will not, unless game time is a factor)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on May 03, 2019, 05:25:20 AM
Ha :)

Team B has a choice. They can (but will not) take offsetting penalties and repeat the down. Or, as they did not foul before last gaining team possession, they can decline all team A fouls and keep the ball after enforcement COMPLETION of their penalty. Team B 1/10 B-9. (Theoretically team A then has the option to decline the team B penalty, but they will not, unless game time is a factor)

Correct (that was easy).  But, we should avoid using the word ‘enforced’ or ‘enforcement’ when talking about B’s penalty.  The correct word is Completed or Completion, which includes, as you state, the possibility that a Team A could decline the penalty for Team B’s foul.

And, for those that might not know, this is known as the “clean hands” exception.  If Team B did not commit a foul BEFORE gaining possession of the ball, i.e., then their ‘hands were clean’ prior to gaining possession. 

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on May 06, 2019, 12:33:56 PM
By the way, the "clean hands" principle is apparent during tries and EPs as well.

Team A and Team B both foul during a try down or an EP down in which Team B gains possession. Do we offset and replay the down? Or do we cancel and NOT replay the down? The way I remember it is, it depends on whether B gained possession with clean hands or not. If they did, the try or EP series is over. If they didn't, we're replaying the down.

In the case of multiple COPs, though, there's an obscure difference:

- On a normal down, the last team to gain possession enjoys "clean hands," and can choose to prevent a replay, only if that team was foul-free before the last COP.

- On tries and EPs, Team B enjoys "clean hands," and the rules prevent a replay, as long as that team was foul-free before the first COP.

You'll probably go your whole career without encountering an A-B-A-B situation on a try where A and B both foul and B's foul was between the first and the third COP, but if you do, remember your buddy Morningrise

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on May 09, 2019, 02:55:45 PM
Should be a layup:

4th and 10 from the 50. Team A's punt is caught by B11 at the B-20. B11 fumbles the ball at the B-30. Teammate B99 recovers the fumble at the B-35 and is tackled at the B-40. Prior to the kick, A80 blocked an opponent below the waist. Ruling?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: dvasques on May 10, 2019, 12:53:32 AM
B's option to have 15 yards from previous spot (which they probably won't) or from B-40, which is the dead ball spot. B 1/10 @ A-45
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on May 10, 2019, 08:22:18 AM
B's option to have 15 yards from previous spot (which they probably won't) or from B-40, which is the dead ball spot. B 1/10 @ A-45

Totally concur.

This is a situation in which there is a chance Team B might want to repeat the down, if Team A got an enormous kick, and Team B might feel like they can improve on their field position by forcing another punt, on the odds of Team A not getting as good of a punt, again. 
Before we had this current "tack on" rule, Pat Hill at Fresno State (years ago) accepted a penalty at the previous spot, rather than decline the penalty, which would have put them at their own 15 yard line or so.  Seemed like reasonable decision.  On the repeat of the down, they got tackled at the B-10.  Ah, the best laid plans... 

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on May 10, 2019, 10:26:58 AM
Slight wrinkle. Same ruling?

4th and 10 from the 50. Team A's punt is caught by B11 at the B-20. During B11’s run, A80 grasps and twists B11’s face mask causing B11 to fumble the ball at the B-30. Teammate B99 recovers the fumble at the B-35 and is tackled at the B-40.

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on May 10, 2019, 11:04:46 AM
Slight wrinkle. Same ruling?

4th and 10 from the 50. Team A's punt is caught by B11 at the B-20. During B11’s run, A80 grasps and twists B11’s face mask causing B11 to fumble the ball at the B-30. Teammate B99 recovers the fumble at the B-35 and is tackled at the B-40.

Good one.
First, the pure result of the play is B, 1/10, B-40, PC=25, GC=snap (if B were to decline the penalty).
This foul is not during the kick play, but is during the running play after the end of the kick.  Thus, this is a true Basic Spot / 3 & 1 enforcement.  The foul occurred during B11's run, so the Basic Spot for this foul is the end of B11's run, which is the B-30.  The foul is by the opponent of the team in possession, so the 15-yard penalty is enforced at the Basic Spot, yielding B, 1/10, B-45, PC=25, BC=snap.  Acceptance of the penalty is more advantageous than the pure result of the play, so B will accept the penalty.

(Note:  The "fourth down fumble" rule does not apply after a change of team possession during the down.)

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Morningrise on May 14, 2019, 09:36:28 AM
First and 10 at the A-10. From the A-8, A11 throws a backward screen pass to the split end, but B33 swats it out of the air at the A-7. The ball bounces at the A-3 and enters A's end zone, where A77 falls on it. Ruling?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: dvasques on May 14, 2019, 10:00:24 AM
Safety. A's backward pass put the ball in the end zone (the bat doesn't add new impetus unless the ball had touched the ground before).

FK A @ A-20. GC on legal touch inbounds. PC 25
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on May 15, 2019, 03:59:05 PM
Also, the non-passing team may legally bat the backward pass forward, so the bat is legal.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on June 18, 2019, 04:39:12 PM
I will disagree with your answer. There is a question over who has team possession at the end of the down. I say it's team B because they were the last team in possession during the down. Absent any fouls A would put the ball in play on the next down, but I don't believe that applies. For the sake of discussion, let's go with team B in possession. Since they obtained the ball with clean hands they can decline A's foul if they want. They wouldn't do that though because then A would decline B's foul and take the result of the play: touchback 1st and 10 at the A-20. Better field position and a first down. B's other choice would be to accept A's penalty which results in a replay of the down, 3rd and 9 at the A-14. B would choose that option every time.

If you feel A is in team possession at the end of the down, they don't have any options because they fouled  before gaining possession. It's a double foul replay the down at the previous spot. 3rd and 9 at the A-14.

In this case it doesn't matter, but if it was 3rd and goal at the B-8 and this happened, B would likely decline the penalty and move A back to their own 20 even if it's a first down.

Magician,
I'm certain that, for the purposes of penalty enforcement, Team B was, indeed, last in team possession.  Redding has consistently indicated that a touchback is not a change of team possession DURING THE DOWN, and that is the key here.  So, yes, Team B could opt for the "clean hands" exception, but, as you say, Team A would then, just decline the penalty for B's foul, and take the pure result of the play (touchback, A, 1/10, A-20).  So, B will most likely take offsetting fouls and a repeat of the down at the previous spot.

Robert

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 18, 2019, 06:42:42 PM
Since thread got bumped, I figured I'd make sure we all saw the editorial change that affects some of the discussion a few pages back.

A "striding" ball carrier crossing the sideline is now the same as an airborne ball carrier. The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. As discussed by Bossman and Elvis back on page 3, this was already the interpretation supes wanted, but a direct reading of the rule book would not lead to this understanding. Now it does.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bossman72 on June 19, 2019, 08:08:13 AM
Since thread got bumped, I figured I'd make sure we all saw the editorial change that affects some of the discussion a few pages back.

A "striding" ball carrier crossing the sideline is now the same as an airborne ball carrier. The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. As discussed by Bossman and Elvis back on page 3, this was already the interpretation supes wanted, but a direct reading of the rule book would not lead to this understanding. Now it does.

I was very happy to see that!  Shaw must have been reading :)
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on June 19, 2019, 02:05:21 PM
Since thread got bumped, I figured I'd make sure we all saw the editorial change that affects some of the discussion a few pages back.

A "striding" ball carrier crossing the sideline is now the same as an airborne ball carrier. The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. As discussed by Bossman and Elvis back on page 3, this was already the interpretation supes wanted, but a direct reading of the rule book would not lead to this understanding. Now it does.

I swear that this appeared in a bulletin sometime in the past two seasons, but, for the life of me, I can't find it.  Anybody?  Bueller?  Bueller.... 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 19, 2019, 02:24:25 PM
There were a few questions on the topic on the CFO test last year.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bmtjim on June 19, 2019, 08:10:29 PM
A 4-G B-5. B leads 24-20 with 0:03 remaining in quarter 4. QB A7 drops back and seeing no one open scrambles right.  At the B6 he sees A78 in the EZ and throws a pass which A78 catches for a TD.  There are no eligible players in the area of the pass.  Time expires on the play.  Ruling including the foul?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ilyazhito on June 19, 2019, 09:12:05 PM
This is not zap-10, as the forward pass was legally executed (QB throws the ball away outside the tackle box and beyond the line of scrimmage), rather the penalty is ITP, because #78 touched the ball in the end zone (Rule 7-3-11). There is also a foul for IDP, because #78 was more than 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage (Rule 7-3-10). The defense will accept either penalty, with the next play being an untimed down A 4/G @ B-10, Game clock at 0 seconds, play clock at 25 due to the penalty enforcement.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on June 20, 2019, 01:31:55 AM
This is still an illegal forward pass as there was no eligible team A receiver in the area and A7 obviously conserved time with the pass. Loss of down, game over. If there was time remaining on the game clock at the end of the play we would not have ZAP-10 as the foul did not cause the clock to stop, the apparent TD did.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on June 20, 2019, 10:06:34 AM
This is still an illegal forward pass as there was no eligible team A receiver in the area and A7 obviously conserved time with the pass. Loss of down, game over. If there was time remaining on the game clock at the end of the play we would not have ZAP-10 as the foul did not cause the clock to stop, the apparent TD did.

This is why I would like to see the rule changed to read, "...thrown incomplete into an area where there is no originally eligible Team A receiver."  This would clear up several things:
1) it would conclusively require the pass to be incomplete to be intentional grounding; thus a catch by an ineligible player would NOT be an intentional grounding foul, but would be illegal touching, and an interception would not create an intentional grounding foul.
2) it would not be an intentional grounding foul if thrown to a player that the passer may have believed to be eligible, i.e., the player was eligible at the snap, but became ineligible during the down; but, it would be illegal touching.

If the rule read as suggested above, intentional ground can only occur with an incomplete pass, which would cause the clock to stop.  In many cases, that is the desired effect by the offending team, giving them an unfair advantage.  Thus, the 10-second subtraction is appropriate, during the last minute of each half.

However, a catch by an ineligible player does the offending team no good with regard to the clock; the clock continues to run until the ball becomes dead otherwise.  An interception certainly does the offending team no good with regard to anything.  So, in both cases, there is no reason to impose a 10-second subtraction from the game clock.

I continue to dream.

Robert
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: ElvisLives on June 20, 2019, 10:20:40 AM
By the way, what is a receiver?  That word means nothing, unless it has a definition. That word, by itself, does not mean eligible or ineligible.

If that term is going to be used in the actual rule language, it needs to be defined.  But, in actuality, it does not need to be used, at all.  Just simply "player" works for the rules.  Much like a passer, a receiver wouldn't be a receiver until he actually receives the ball from a pass or kick.  Why make it complicated?  Just use the word "player." The word "quarterback" does not appear in the rule language.  No different.  Lose the word "receiver" in the rule language.  OK, if you want to use it in the ARs. But, get it out of the rule language. I don't care if he was the player intended to receive the pass or not.  He is just another player.

Robert

 
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on June 20, 2019, 11:07:43 AM
By the way, what is a receiver?  That word means nothing, unless it has a definition. That word, by itself, does not mean eligible or ineligible.

If that term is going to be used in the actual rule language, it needs to be defined.  But, in actuality, it does not need to be used, at all.  Just simply "player" works for the rules.  Much like a passer, a receiver wouldn't be a receiver until he actually receives the ball from a pass or kick.  Why make it complicated?  Just use the word "player." The word "quarterback" does not appear in the rule language.  No different.  Lose the word "receiver" in the rule language.  OK, if you want to use it in the ARs. But, get it out of the rule language. I don't care if he was the player intended to receive the pass or not.  He is just another player.

Robert

Don't necessarily disagree but many years ago when I was taking the officiating classes we were told that words used in the rules were 1st to be interpreted as defined in the definitions and 2nd, if not defined in the definitions, were to be interpreted based on generally accepted (dictionary) definitions.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bossman72 on June 20, 2019, 09:12:31 PM
2) it would not be an intentional grounding foul if thrown to a player that the passer may have believed to be eligible, i.e., the player was eligible at the snap, but became ineligible during the down; but, it would be illegal touching.

I think a good example of this would be TE #88 is unintentionally covered up at the snap.  QB under duress throws  a pass to  a wide open A88 with nobody around him.

Technically, this is ING, but I don't think we should penalize him for ING here because he believed he was throwing to an eligible receiver.  Just penalize the ITP/IDP.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Kalle on June 21, 2019, 01:12:01 AM
I think a good example of this would be TE #88 is unintentionally covered up at the snap.  QB under duress throws  a pass to  a wide open A88 with nobody around him.

Technically, this is ING, but I don't think we should penalize him for ING here because he believed he was throwing to an eligible receiver.  Just penalize the ITP/IDP.

Devil's advocate, good morning. What if the defense has intentionally ignored A88 as they knew he was ineligible? Then you would be penalizing defense for a good heads-up play.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bossman72 on June 21, 2019, 08:05:41 AM
Devil's advocate, good morning. What if the defense has intentionally ignored A88 as they knew he was ineligible? Then you would be penalizing defense for a good heads-up play.

I mean, we're still penalizing for IDP/ITP...  So it's not like we're totally screwing the defense if they decided not to cover him.  I just don't think we can get the QB for intentional grounding when he probably didn't know the TE was covered up.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bctgp on June 23, 2019, 09:50:30 PM
Here is a good one (I have the video but is it greater than 700kb so I cannot post).

4th & 1 at the A-29 and Team A's punt lands at the A-31 and rebounds untouched by anyone to near the A-27 where A35 bats the ball forward toward to the A-29 where the HL is standing on the sideline and reaches down and picks up the ball before it goes out of bounds.

Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 23, 2019, 10:19:37 PM
Was the H out of bounds? That would affect the ruling.

H out of bounds: By touching the ball, the H has made the ball dead out of bounds. B can either enforce the ILB at the spot of the foul (batting is not part of the previous spot exception from 3&1) or enforce it from the dead ball spot and get the ball. There is no loss of down for this batting because the ball crossed the neutral zone when it hit the ground at the A-31. Team B will elect to enforce the batting from the A-29 and have 1st and 10 from the A-19. GC Snap PC 25.

H inbounds: The ball is dead when the H gains possession and inadvertent whistle provisions apply. Because this was still a kick, the only option is to replay the down. However any fouls or violations can still be applied. That means Team B could accept the penalty for batting from the spot of the foul and make it 4th and 13 from the A-17. But they won't because we didn't just have a foul, we also had a violation. As mentioned above, when the ball bounced at the A-31, it crossed the neutral zone by rule. That makes A35's bat illegal touching as well. So Team B will decline the penalty for the batting and take the ITK violation at the A-27 and have 1st and 10 from there. GC Snap PC 25.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: bctgp on June 23, 2019, 11:06:06 PM
The HL was standing on the sideline when he picked the ball up - therefore out of bounds. Sorry, I should have been more overt about that point.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 23, 2019, 11:20:42 PM
Then the ball was out of bounds by touching him before he gained possession, so no inadvertent whistle provisions. Just a punt out of bounds. Team B will take the penalty enforced from the dead ball spot since we have a foul by A during a scrimmage kick play and the kick crossed the LOS. B, 1st and 10, from A-19.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: peterparsons on June 24, 2019, 06:09:22 AM
The wording on the loss of down exception states "(Exception: No loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal scrimmage kick is beyond the neutral zone)." The key words here are "is beyond" since, in this scenario, the scrimmage kick is behind, not beyond, the neutral zone at the moment of the bat.

As such, the loss of down still applies in this situation and B are better off enforcing from the spot of the bat since that will give them the ball at Team A's 17 yard line.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 24, 2019, 06:58:12 AM
Once a kick has crossed the neutral zone, all action is considered beyond because there is no longer a neutral zone for the ball to then go behind.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: peterparsons on June 24, 2019, 08:57:05 AM
So why doesn't the Exception say "No loss of down once a scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone" if that is the intention?
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 24, 2019, 09:38:24 AM
Why have “neutral zone” and “line of scrimmage” become almost interchangeable terms? Why do we say “THE line of scrimmage” when there are two of them? Why does the new OT rule call it a two point play instead of a try down? On that note, why has “overtime” become part of our vocabulary instead of extra periods?

The answer to all is because through different editors, the language within the rule has evolved little by little either intentionally or not.

To the point of this play, I believe a play similar to this was actually on a CFO test at some point recently. I don’t have my test bank right now, but somebody may be able to find it.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Legacy Zebra on June 24, 2019, 09:51:33 AM
Also, look at why batting has a loss of down and why the exception is there. The loss of down is to prevent of a team from illegally advancing the ball. That’s why batting, kicking, illegal forward passes, etc have a loss of down. Once a scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone, Team A can’t advance the ball anyway, so there’s no reason to have a loss of down. Thus the exception. In this play, Team A cant advance the ball because it’s crossed the nz, so there’s no loss of down.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: peterparsons on June 24, 2019, 10:04:05 AM
The concept of a scrimmmage kick which has crossed the neutral zone subsequently being behind the neutral zone exists in multiple places in the book. It's in 8-4-2-b-3, AR 6-3-1-I, AR 6-3-13-III and AR 10-2-4-II. As such, I would consider it a reasonable conclusion that the choice of words is deliberate.

I'm also struggling to find a reason why, on this play, we would not want to have the option of giving B the ball at the 17? It's a better spot. It's only two yards on this play, but say A's bat had caused the ball to go all the way to midfield before going out of bounds. That is a significant difference in outcome if our only option is to tack on 10 from the out of bounds spot.
Title: Re: Keep our minds working...
Post by: Sonofanump on June 24, 2019, 10:07:25 PM
Did they just go over this in Rule 11 podcast, saying Steve Shaw says via email, enforce from spot of foul (A27 in this case)?
Title: Keep our minds working...
Post by: TxBJ on June 25, 2019, 12:18:23 PM
Did they just go over this in Rule 11 podcast, saying Steve Shaw says via email, enforce from spot of foul (A27 in this case)?
I think their play had the original punt not going beyond the LOS but the bat putting it beyond the LOS. So the bat occurred before the kick crossed the LOS. I could be mistaken, though.