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51
General Discussion / Re: Announcing Numbers
« Last post by Magician on April 16, 2019, 09:43:41 AM »
The only compelling reason I know for not announcing the numbers if the instances you don't have a number and those where you have the wrong number. The lower you get the worse getting the right number is and HS officials are probably all over the board on how good they are at getting the right number. If you only share it with the coach you limit the awareness of your mistake. If you announce it to everyone they all may found out you had the wrong number or no number.

That being said, I'm a huge fan of including the number. It's something everyone is used to watching other sports and other levels of football. It helps the broadcasters if they are going to show a replay to know which player committed the foul. It helps knowledgeable fans in the stands to know where the foul occurred. They may have seen 85's block and thought it wasn't a foul but if you announce the hold was on 62 (the pulling guard) they'll at least know the block they saw wasn't a hold. As an official I wish they announced the number for games I watch either live or on TV, but we are a very small percentage of the viewing public. Ultimately it's just one of those traditions that now doesn't make any sense to keep. Announce the numbers as best you can and move on.
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General Discussion / Re: Measurement mechanics
« Last post by Magician on April 16, 2019, 09:20:08 AM »
I agree this is fine but it really depends on the location of the R. I believe we've always had the R standing on the press box side. That way when he gives his signal he's not doing it through the front stake, umpire, and back judge. If the R is on the press box side it really doesn't matter if the B is on the offensive or defensive side, but it easier if he's on the defensive side. If the R is going to be opposite the press box then it definitely makes sense to have the BJ on the offensive side.
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So is it to be expected that the NFHS will correct the document to eliminate the language that states that the remainder of Section E does not apply if you do not have a visible play clock?

No, Not necessarily.
If you don't have visible play clocks you won't use the document. It's that simple.
It most certainly does not state anywhere that if you don't have visible play clocks you revert to using use a 2018 Rules Book and  25 second clock only.
 
Or alternately at least issue a clarification since we won't be getting new rule books this year? 

Sounds like you may have received bad information as the NFHS issues Rules Book EVERY year so there will be a new on for 2019.

The way it reads now is clearly incorrect if it is intended to apply to all situations (visible play clock or not).

So...since it has been clarified the document is only intended for use when there are visible play clocks, do you then agree it is correct?

I would be interested if you or any of your interpreters have observed any football related issues with the document so we can get it corrected.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Zap on April 15, 2019, 08:55:48 PM »
Close, eh?  Hmmm.  Well, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll work through this.

Scrimmage play.
The ball carrier (and receiver of the snap) fumbles the ball from behind the NZ at the b-30 (the B-30 is end of that run).
The ball is still in Team A's team possession.
The ball travels to the A-45 (still behind the neutral zone, and still loose from the fumble).
The ball is muffed (irrelevant by whom, and a muff changes nothing).
The ball continues to travel to the B-48 (two yards beyond the NZ, which means almost nothing in this case).
At the B-48, A66 kicks the ball.  Since there is no mention of A66 gaining player possession, we can assume the ball was still loose when A66 kicked it.  A66's kick of the ball is a foul for illegally kicking the ball (10-yard penalty and loss of down, with Basic Spot enforcement).  However the illegal kicking foul did not change the status of the ball - it is still loose from the fumble.
The ball, still alive, travels out of bounds at the A-35 (15 yards behind the NZ).
The ball becomes dead.
Since the spot where the ball went OB was in advance of the end of spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the artificial dead-ball spot - the spot of the fumble.
Since the ball is dead behind the line-to-gain, and the previous down was fourth down, the result of the play is Team B's ball at the artificial dead-ball spot.  The next play would be B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=snap.
Team B also has the option to accept the penalty for the Illegally Kicking the Ball.  The distance penalty is 10 yards.  The loss of down applies, so Team B will be awarded the ball, if they accept the penalty.  The penalty is enforced according to Basic Spot enforcement rules. The ball was loose from a fumble from behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  The foul occurred beyond the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot.  Thus, the penalty would yield B, 1/10, A-40, PC=25, GC=Snap. 
The result of the play is more advantageous for Team B than accepting the penalty.  So, Team B will decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Ah, that's closer.

Robert

In those words.... yes.... if only I could have gotten it that quick when I had it presented to me last night.  ;) I learned from this question a process to break down these plays.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by ElvisLives on April 15, 2019, 07:38:24 PM »
Close....

Close, eh?  Hmmm.  Well, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll work through this.

Scrimmage play.
The ball carrier (and receiver of the snap) fumbles the ball from behind the NZ at the b-30 (the B-30 is end of that run).
The ball is still in Team A's team possession.
The ball travels to the A-45 (still behind the neutral zone, and still loose from the fumble).
The ball is muffed (irrelevant by whom, and a muff changes nothing).
The ball continues to travel to the B-48 (two yards beyond the NZ, which means almost nothing in this case).
At the B-48, A66 kicks the ball.  Since there is no mention of A66 gaining player possession, we can assume the ball was still loose when A66 kicked it.  A66's kick of the ball is a foul for illegally kicking the ball (10-yard penalty and loss of down, with Basic Spot enforcement).  However the illegal kicking foul did not change the status of the ball - it is still loose from the fumble.
The ball, still alive, travels out of bounds at the A-35 (15 yards behind the NZ).
The ball becomes dead.
Since the spot where the ball went OB was in advance of the end of spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the artificial dead-ball spot - the spot of the fumble.
Since the ball is dead behind the line-to-gain, and the previous down was fourth down, the result of the play is Team B's ball at the artificial dead-ball spot.  The next play would be B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=snap.
Team B also has the option to accept the penalty for the Illegally Kicking the Ball.  The distance penalty is 10 yards.  The loss of down applies, so Team B will be awarded the ball, if they accept the penalty.  The penalty is enforced according to Basic Spot enforcement rules. The ball was loose from a fumble from behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  The foul occurred beyond the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot.  Thus, the penalty would yield B, 1/10, A-40, PC=25, GC=Snap. 
The result of the play is more advantageous for Team B than accepting the penalty.  So, Team B will decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Ah, that's closer.

Robert
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Legacy Zebra on April 15, 2019, 07:23:52 PM »
Fumbled at the A-30, out of bounds at the A-35. Thatís a forward fumble out of bounds which comes back to the spot of the fumble. B 1st and 10 at the A-30.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Zap on April 15, 2019, 06:02:20 PM »
I'd have 1st & 10 for team B at the dead ball spot (the A-35).  Team B will decline the penalty.

Close.... You are right about the decline of the penalty part. This was a question that stumped our rules study group and we realize this play has a .0000452% chance of happening is still a good discussion play.
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I think that more to the point is the "lack of consistency" that the teams will be seeing.  Here in MA up until now we have always had a clear ready for play signal with an audible signal (whistle) that indicates the ball is ready for play and the 25 second play clock has started.  Everyone from multiple youth football levels thru HS varsity is well versed in the mechanics and timing.  With an idea that we will simply start a 40 second play clock on the DB signal from the end of the previous down I can see a learning curve for the coaches and players who have been doing it another way for decades that is more of an issue than us officials doing it.  I know the coaches that were at our first MIAA sponsored overview of the NCAA vs. NFHS rules differences had serious heartburn over the play clock issues and the related mechanics.  We'll see how it works out.   :)
The benefit of the 40-second play clock provides the consistent for every play. They maybe had a rhythm from whistle to dead ball but with variation even from the best crews from dead ball to whistle affected them. If they had a series of plays where that was consistently 40-45 seconds (still variable) and they suddenly had one where it was only 35 seconds because the ball was placed quickly and the R started the play clock, they are going to feel rushed. Or you are the end of the game and the defense wants to get the ball back, they are going to feel you are taking too much time to blow the RFP. That goes away with a 40-second play clock. Your comments actually are one of the key reasons to support a 40-second play clock. They will now have a consistent rhythm automatically throughout the game because the time they have to get the ball snapped will be the same throughout (assuming no administrative stops for penalty enforcement, injury, measurement, etc.). It won't be 38 seconds one play, 44 seconds the next play, then 40 and occasionally 32 or 50. It will always be 40 seconds. This has very little to do with how QUICKLY they can snap it after the previous play although you will see plenty of chatter about that before the season starts. Then they'll realize they can't get a play called and started that fast. Very rarely will see you the ball snapped with more than 28 seconds on the play clock. Most are still in the 10-20 range.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on April 15, 2019, 03:37:53 PM »
I'd have 1st & 10 for team B at the dead ball spot (the A-35).  Team B will decline the penalty.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Keep our minds working...
« Last post by Zap on April 15, 2019, 03:28:30 PM »
4/2@ 50. The snap goes over the punters head and he gains possession at the A-30 where he then trys to still kick the ball. he is hit and fumbles at the A-30. The ball rolls to the A-45 where it is muffed to the B-48 where A66 kicks the rolling ball backwards oob at the A-35. Ruling?
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