Author Topic: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....  (Read 2505 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

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From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« on: July 19, 2017, 07:02:46 AM »
Some thoughts to share......

The pop-up kick is a kick driven into the ground and goes airborne similar to a legal kick. BJ (5-man) would blow and throw w/LJ (on R's line) as possible back-up. The following kicks are legal :

 The "pooch" kick - a short, airborne kick.
 The "grounder" - a kick bouncing along the ground.
 The "kangaroo" kick - takes a couple of short bounces followed by a big bounce.

In the last two minutes of either half, one team has an accepted live ball foul while the other team has a dead ball foul. The offended team of the live ball foul has the option to start on the snap.

....There were others, but I'm not currently awake enough to currently remember tiphat:.

Online VA Official

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 01:09:13 PM »
In regards to the previous pop-up kick play discussed on this forum, it seems that kick was a "kangaroo" kick, so it looks like that was legal. I just got the NFHS Preseason Guide and it offered the definition of a kangaroo kick as a kick "in which the kicker drives the ball into the ground to create two or three bounces then one high arching bounce." The same definition you provided and it definitely looks like that's what happens in this play.

Referenced play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsgdfmFS9nM&feature=youtu.be

Offline KWH

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2017, 06:30:54 PM »
In regards to the infamous previous play discussed in another (closed) thread on this forum, some confusion existed in three states regarding the legality of that kick. 
The confusion existed was in what happens after the first bounce! One (unreleased) training video interpreted the kick as ILLEGAL due to the high SECOND bounce.
To be clear, this confusion no longer exists, the training video has been revised (before being released) to follow the federation interpretation, which, as explained yesterday, was:
If the ball is kicked immediately into the ground and the FIRST bounce is higher than the kickers head, that the kick is illegal - Shut it down! Dead Ball - Free Kick Infraction.
If anything else happens - Legal kick, Play continues. When in doubt - It is a foul

Also, in the Infamous video, some think the first bounce is higher than the kickers head. Hard to tell precisly from the avaiable video but again, if it bounces higher than the kickers head shut it down, otherwise, play on.  When in doubt - It is a foul

I believe this is a fairly simple interpretation we can all work with.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 06:38:23 PM by KWH »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 06:19:23 AM »
I'm OK with the interpretation but where in any official ruling does it say "higher than the kickers head?"
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 09:36:21 AM »
I'm OK with the interpretation but where in any official ruling does it say "higher than the kickers head?"

I haven't seen anything official from the NFHS, but Sumstine's video advises to use the kicker's height as a key as well as if the wing official has to "look up" to see the ball.

Around the 9:35 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDqcKkIfAys&t=554s
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 09:39:04 AM by VA Official »

Offline KWH

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 11:21:01 AM »
I'm OK with the interpretation but where in any official ruling does it say "higher than the kickers head?"

Man, that is a great question.
Yes, it is stated as such on Matt Sumstine's training film! However Matt also states quite clearly while this will be the interpretations they will use in the Islands, outside of the Island's you will need check with your individual SRI. That is and remains the best advice for right now.

In theory, every member state is represented at the interpreters meeting, (I know ours was)
So in theory, if every state heard the same thing from the NFHS and we should all be given that interpretation one way or another.

Sorry, don't have a better answer.

Ralph???


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 07:41:47 AM »
Man, that is a great question.
Yes, it is stated as such on Matt Sumstine's training film! However Matt also states quite clearly while this will be the interpretations they will use in the Islands, outside of the Island's you will need check with your individual SRI. That is and remains the best advice for right now.

In theory, every member state is represented at the interpreters meeting, (I know ours was)
So in theory, if every state heard the same thing from the NFHS and we should all be given that interpretation one way or another.


Sorry, don't have a better answer.

Ralph???
I'm telling our guys : "If it looks like a 'pooch-kick' but is first driven into the ground, out comes da' ^flag". For those of baseball interest : (1) a grounder is legal; (2) a grounder with a high hop is legal; (3) a Baltimore chop- ball driven of off plate and resembles a short pop-up- is NOT.

My concern with using the head of the kicker as a benchmark :

   As our great game is going international, some day it may also go interplanetary . It isn't currently known if future POPs (Players from Other Planets) will have only one head. A multi-headed kicker would cause the problem of which head to measure from.

DISCLAIMER : These are not the opinions of the NFHS, NCAA, NFL, CFL, MPA, AFL/CIO, GOP, ASPCA, or any groups studying interplanetary travel; but merely the musings of a grumpy ole' baseball ump, who after having an American Legion playoff game go for one inning, watched lightning fill the skies for the next two hours.

 pi1eOn tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl hEaDbAnG nAnA
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 07:44:59 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 08:18:08 AM »
...if every state heard the same thing from the NFHS and we should all be given that interpretation one way or another.
Seeing and hearing are two different things. If the Fed wants to use this interpretation, the rule makers need to come up with case plays/approved rulings to back it up. Not for a minute do I believe all 48 states left that conference call with the same mindset, nor will it be communicated the same (for those states that actually communicate what is said on calls such as these).
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 04:42:33 PM »
How dead does a horse have to be, to allow the carcass to be buried?  NFHS 2-24-10; :A pop-up kick is a free kick in which the kicker DRIVES the ball immediately into the ground, the ball strikes the ground ONCE and goes into the air IN THE MANNER OF A BALL KICKED DIRECTLY OFF THE TEE.

Is there another type of free kick that DRIVES THE BALL IMMEDIATELY INTO THE GROUND

Relying on the common sense and exclusive judgment of the BJ, or other covering official, seems more practical than establishing a specific height requirement, for that 1st bounce, and providing the appropriate covering official with some sort of measuring device to exactly verify compliance.

Offline KWH

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 01:12:16 PM »
Seeing and hearing are two different things. If the Fed wants to use this interpretation, the rule makers need to come up with case plays/approved rulings to back it up. Not for a minute do I believe all 48 states left that conference call with the same mindset, nor will it be communicated the same (for those states that actually communicate what is said on calls such as these).

All of your points are vaild except one; so:
1) May I suggest you might want to check with your individual state SRI for his/her interpretation and report back!
2) The NFHS consists of 49 Members and 51 votes.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:22:25 PM by KWH »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 01:30:41 PM »
1) I suggest you might want to check with your individual state SRI for his/her interpretation and report back!
2) The NFHS consists of 49 Members and 51 votes.
Why even bother with a "National" Federation if we are leaving the interpretation up to each individual state? Let's just have each one write their own rule book.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 02:32:52 PM »
From the rule change slide for pop-up kicks from the NFHS, they provided a pretty clear picture of what the rules committee wanted to outlaw. The diagram shows the first "bounce" taking place in the immediate vicinity of the tee, and the ball bouncing high into the air. While the rule doesn't say that specifically, their depiction makes it clear. Now how high is high? That's up to interpretation, but head height (~6 feet) should be an absolute minimum. Maybe the minimum should be higher than head height. The diagram shows the bounce height around 12 feet (estimated). Regardless, the pictures, along with the rule itself, gives us something to work with. If we see something similar to what they've depicted (one bounce in the immediate vicinity of the tee, high in the air), it's a flag.

It doesn't seem like the NFHS is going to give us a specific height or more specific requirements, we just have to create our own cues based on what they already gave us. I wouldn't worry about the kicker. It's going to be happening too fast to try and worry about comparing heights. Personally, I think the best key to go off of is the wings having to look up to see the ball. If they have to look up, the receiver is doing the same, putting himself in a vulnerable position which is what the rules committee is trying to eliminate. This is a cue Sumstine is offering his officials, so it may have been suggested by the committee or at the interpreters meeting.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 03:00:35 PM »
My pregame meeting with both coaches will include something like "You're aware that pop up kickoffs are illegal this year, right?"  I expect the vast majority to say "Yep, we don't use them."  If a coach asks questions about bounces or height, I'll know that we have reason to pay very close attention to his kickoffs.
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline KWH

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 01:10:05 PM »
Why even bother with a "National" Federation if we are leaving the interpretation up to each individual state? Let's just have each one write their own rule book.

Please review 2017 NFHS Rules Book, Page 2, Bottom of Page, Grayed out / boxed in area.
Not saying I like it, rather I am responding to you with: Because that's the way the NFHS rolls!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 01:20:04 PM by KWH »

Offline JasonTX

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 05:27:30 PM »
I don't use NF rules, but I am curious as to why a "Pop-up" kick is illegal.   ???.  Make it easy, once the foot touches the ball we have a legal kick.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 06:30:47 AM »
I don't use NF rules, but I am curious as to why a "Pop-up" kick is illegal.   ???.  Make it easy, once the foot touches the ball we have a legal kick.

Hey, look! A fresh tasty can of worms!

It's a safety issue. K drives the ball into the ground, then very high into the air but not very deep. There is likely to be one or more R players staring up at the ball waiting to make a catch -- except that the ball has already been grounded immediately off the tee and the R players whose focus is on the skyward football are defenseless against getting creamed by oncoming K players. KCI and a fair catch are out the window since the ball has already hit the ground.

I personally like the NCAA rule where one single immediate bounce is ignored and R players retain their possible fair catch and KCI protections just so you don't have to guess "Did that hit the ground, or was it a pop up?" (NCAA rule 6-4-1-f).

Offline FLAHL

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 08:45:05 AM »
Hey, look! A fresh tasty can of worms!

 LOL
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline Sumstine

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 05:14:25 PM »
The only thing clear about this rule and how to interpret it is that it's unclear. I provided guidelines in Hawaii that include some thresholds for how to rule consistently. The biggest complaints we receive from teams is a lack of consistency. I was also on the NFHS call and no specifics were provided outside of the written rule.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 10:31:08 AM »
We need to remember that this (6-1-11) is a free-kick infraction of 5 yards and not confuse it with an illegal kick, which sends the ball thrice as far. The BJ will be high-stepping off the five with signals #7-19.

We will probably remember, after the season ends, that we will have had very few of the pop-ups.....
 (1) players can't do it without being taught how to;
 (2) now that it is illegal it won't be taught;
 (3) unlike the recent 6-1-3b & 6-1-4 that could occur if a player wasn't thinking, this would require the player to do something (a) that he had never been taught, or (b) been taught but later told that it was illegal.

That's my opinion, I welcome yours  deadhorse:   

Offline ncwingman

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 02:09:36 PM »
We will probably remember, after the season ends, that we will have had very few of the pop-ups.....

I agree with this. Pop-up kicks have not really been an issue around these parts because it requires kickers with sufficient skill to pull it off... which are hard to come by in high school. The rule is more pre-emptive to prevent it from being taught. I would guess that most kickers who manage to pull off a pop up this year were trying to pull off a kangaroo or squib kick instead and got an unfortunate early bounce.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2017, 08:00:04 PM »

In the last two minutes of either half, one team has an accepted live ball foul while the other team has a dead ball foul. The offended team of the live ball foul has the option to start on the snap.


Thinking about this one.  If the offended team of the live ball foul chooses not to start on the snap, the offended team of the dead ball foul still has the option to start on the snap, correct?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 07:18:07 AM »
Thinking about this one.  If the offended team of the live ball foul chooses not to start on the snap, the offended team of the dead ball foul still has the option to start on the snap, correct?
IMHO, no. In this situation , only the offended team of the live ball foul would have that choice. If the only foul on the play was a dead ball foul (encroachment, false start, etc) that choice would be available.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 01:34:33 PM »
IMHO, no. In this situation , only the offended team of the live ball foul would have that choice. If the only foul on the play was a dead ball foul (encroachment, false start, etc) that choice would be available.

Here's the scenario that made me think B should be given the opportunity to have a clock option:

A's ball 4th and 30 from the B 40-yard line.  Score is A21-B20.  There are 35 seconds left in the fourth quarter.  A20 runs to the B 30-yard line and is tackled in bounds.  During the run B56 incidentally grasps A20's face mask.  After the tackle, A20 taunts B56.  The time remaining on the clock is 24 seconds.

B has an option to accept or decline A's dead ball foul.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 03:35:47 PM by Patrick E. »

Offline SCline

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 08:44:16 PM »
3-4-7 states “when a penalty is accepted with less than  two minutes remaining in either half, the offended team will have the option to start the game clock on the snap.”

If both a dead ball and live ball foul penalty are accepted by opposite teams, both teams would have the option to start the clock on the snap

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: From the NFHS Interpreters Meeting.....
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2017, 08:41:41 AM »
NFHS 3-4-7 simply states, "When A penalty (not live ball, dead ball, first or subsequent) is accepted with less than 2 minutes, the OFFENDED team (doesn't specify ahead or behind) will have the option to start the game clock on the snap".

NFHS 10-2-5a suggests, "Dead ball fouls (subject to some unrelated exceptions) are administered separately and in order of occurrence.  A dead ball foul is not coupled with a live ball foul or another dead ball foul to create a double or multiple foul".

Sounds like, non-offsetting fouls, each would be subject to the 3-4-7 option, and considering the protocol stated in 10-2-5a, the dead ball foul would be administered AFTER the live ball foul, providing THAT offended team with the option to elect to "start the game clock on the snap", irregardless of any clock decision made as a result of the live-ball foul.