Author Topic: Clock Play  (Read 973 times)

Offline NCVAReferee

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Clock Play
« on: July 25, 2017, 07:02:09 AM »
A 3/10 @ A-10.  Score A21-B20.  25 seconds left in the fourth quarter.  A23 runs to the A-25 and is tackled in bounds.  During the run A77 held at the A-8.  After the tackle, B68 taunts A23.  What is the status of the clock?

Offline sczeebra

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 07:27:57 AM »
B would be given the option to have the clock started on the snap in this instance. There is no provision then to ask A if they want it started on the ready for B's foul. So wind it on the snap!

Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 08:54:24 AM »
Is this a particular interpretation of the rule?  The rule change doesn't seem to address this type of situation where there are two fouls, one live-ball by one team and one succeeding spot enforcement by the other.  Who is the "aggrieved" team in this case?

Offline Stinterp

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 10:41:20 AM »
The better question is:  Have Team A losing A-20, B-21.  Now if Team A holds, B is going to want to have the clock run normally which is on the RFP, but what if now after the play B68 taunts A23, accepts the penalty, does A now get the option to start on the snap?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:00:41 PM by Stinterp »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 11:51:10 AM »
This applies to dead ball fouls as well as live ball fouls.  Consider this:

B is ahead with under two minutes to go, and the clock running.
B encroaches.
Mark of 5 yards and offer A the option of starting on the ready, or on the snap.
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline Stinterp

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2017, 12:02:34 PM »
A will start on the snap.

Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 01:59:12 PM »
Does everyone agree the rule is not written to address the issues presented?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 06:15:25 PM »
Does everyone agree the rule is not written to address the issues presented?
+1
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Offline Bugolathe

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 10:21:28 PM »
The better question is:  Have Team A losing A-20, B-21.  Now if Team A holds, B is going to want to have the clock run normally which is on the RFP, but what if now after the play B68 taunts A23, accepts the penalty, does A now get the option to start on the snap?

It looks like NF may need to refine this rule for next year, but in the instance above you would invoke rule 10-1-3 (when a live ball foul by one team is followed by a dead ball foul by the opponent, the penalties will be administered separately and in the order of occurrence.)  I would think that would mean the opponent of the last team to foul would have final say on the status of the clock if it was suppose to be started with the ready.

Online VA Official

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 07:37:12 AM »
It looks like NF may need to refine this rule for next year, but in the instance above you would invoke rule 10-1-3 (when a live ball foul by one team is followed by a dead ball foul by the opponent, the penalties will be administered separately and in the order of occurrence.)  I would think that would mean the opponent of the last team to foul would have final say on the status of the clock if it was suppose to be started with the ready.

I agree with this interpretation of administered separately and in the order of occurrence until it is made more clear by FED. If the first offended team elects to start on the snap, the other team does not get the option. If the first team declines the option, the other team may elect the option to start on the snap. Either way it seems this play will most likely start on the snap.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:03:00 AM by VA Official »

Online edtude

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 07:41:03 AM »
I agree with this interpretation of administered separately and in the order of occurrence until it is made more clear by FED. If the first offended team elects to start on the snap, the other team does not get an option. If the first team elects to stay with starting on the RFP, the other team may elect to start on the snap. Either way it seems this play will most likely start on the snap.

And quite possibly lead to a lengthy discussion on timekeeping with the head coach of B!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 09:36:01 AM »
The new option, provided by 3-4-7 provides "the offended team" the option, "to start the game clock on the snap" NOT to CHOOSE BETWEEN starting on the snap, or on the ready.

If the game situation calls for the clock to start on the snap, there is NO OPTION.

If one "offended team" elects to start the clock "on the snap" via 3-4-7, a subsequently offended team has NO OPTION, as the clock would have already been designated to start on the snap.  If the originally "offended team" declines to exercise the option available under 3-4-7 (and retain the game situation requirement of starting on the ready), a subsequently qualified "offended" team would have the same 3-4-7 option

Online VA Official

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 11:00:40 AM »
The new option, provided by 3-4-7 provides "the offended team" the option, "to start the game clock on the snap" NOT to CHOOSE BETWEEN starting on the snap, or on the ready.

If the game situation calls for the clock to start on the snap, there is NO OPTION.

If one "offended team" elects to start the clock "on the snap" via 3-4-7, a subsequently offended team has NO OPTION, as the clock would have already been designated to start on the snap.  If the originally "offended team" declines to exercise the option available under 3-4-7 (and retain the game situation requirement of starting on the ready), a subsequently qualified "offended" team would have the same 3-4-7 option

That's exactly what I was meaning to say, but more eloquently put by you. I can see how some would confuse the part where I said "elects to stay with" rather than "declines the option." Nice catch. I will edit my above post.

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 11:52:08 AM »
Does everyone agree the rule is not written to address the issues presented?

Not necessarily. 

I think it is written fairly clear.  The offended team is afforded the choice to start on snap.  I would interpret that to be the case with any offended team in the event of double, dead ball fouls or situations involving more than one foul.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

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Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2017, 07:43:32 PM »
Not necessarily. 

I think it is written fairly clear.  The offended team is afforded the choice to start on snap.  I would interpret that to be the case with any offended team in the event of double, dead ball fouls or situations involving more than one foul.

I would disagree when it comes to double fouls.  By rule, neither team gets a choice to accept or decline the penalty.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 08:17:56 PM by Patrick E. »

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 08:08:37 AM »
I would disagree when it comes to double fouls.  By rule, neither team gets a choice to accept or decline the penalty.

Correct Patrick.  I agree with you.  Mea culpa.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

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Offline KWH

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 02:38:46 PM »
Not necessarily. 

I think it is written fairly clear.  The offended team is afforded the choice to start on snap.  I would interpret that to be the case with any offended team in the event of double, dead ball fouls or situations involving more than one foul.

+1

It is my interpretation that 3-4-7 is Chrystal clear as written!
How in the heck does the current wording: "When a penalty is accepted in the last two minutes...the offended team will have the option..."  confuse some into believing the rule does not include dead ball fouls?

READ RULE 2 - READ RULE 2 - READ RULE 2
We say this because rules are based on definitions which are found in Rule 2.
For example:
2-16-5...A penalty is a result imposed by rule against a team or team member that has fouled.

Note that nothing in 2-16-5 differentiates dead ball fouls from live ball fouls.
Conclusion: Based on the 2-16-5 definition of "Penalty"; 3-4-7 applies to any accepted penalty just so long as the clock, by rule, is scheduled to start on the snap at the time the offended captain is given his/her penalty options.

...and that's about all I have to say about that!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 03:09:57 PM by KWH »

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Clock Play
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 07:52:28 PM »
A 3/10 @ A-10.  Score A21-B20.  25 seconds left in the fourth quarter.  A23 runs to the A-25 and is tackled in bounds.  During the run A77 held at the A-8.  After the tackle, B68 taunts A23.  What is the status of the clock?

Here's my interpretation: either team can have the clock start with the snap. "When a penalty is accepted ..., the offended team will have the option to start the game clock on the snap." It does not say that the offended team has the option of starting the clock on the ready if it was already going to be on the snap. Nor does it specify what kind of penalty. The rule will apply to each penalty in turn.

So, administer the live-ball foul by A. Ask B if they would like the clock to start on the snap. If they say yes, it will do so.
Then, administer the dead-ball foul by B. If the clock is going to start on the ready, ask A if they would prefer it to start on the snap. If they say yes, it will do so.
(Note: Not asking either team if they accept the penalty here, as it seems obvious to me both ways.)