Author Topic: Accepting penalty but declining yardage  (Read 715 times)

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 233
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-13
Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« on: August 07, 2017, 12:59:19 PM »
10-1-1 states "... The distance penalty for any foul may be declined."

5-2-2 then states "When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession ... the ball belongs to A or K after enforcement... The number of the next down is the same as that of the down during which the foul occured unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or the enforcement or the advance results in a first down"

I've always wondered why on earth a team would ever want to decline the distance penalty. But then laying in bed last night I had this thought:

1st and 10 from the 50. Running back A1 runs to the B41yd-line where he is tacked. A five yard facemask foul is called.

Could a coach, if he's so inclined accept the facemask penalty, but decline the yardage? The rationale would be he either gets 1st and 10 from the B36-yd line or 1st and 1 from the B41yd-line (by accepting the foul itself but declining the yardage). Perhaps he feels that loss of five yards is worth having the short line to gain.

Legal, right? That being said, I'm not saying we go out and be trailblazers and provide this option but it does exist if a coach knew it and asked for it, right?

Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 01:22:34 PM »
10-1-1 states "... The distance penalty for any foul may be declined."

5-2-2 then states "When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession ... the ball belongs to A or K after enforcement... The number of the next down is the same as that of the down during which the foul occured unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or the enforcement or the advance results in a first down"

I've always wondered why on earth a team would ever want to decline the distance penalty. But then laying in bed last night I had this thought:

1st and 10 from the 50. Running back A1 runs to the B41yd-line where he is tacked. A five yard facemask foul is called.

Could a coach, if he's so inclined accept the facemask penalty, but decline the yardage? The rationale would be he either gets 1st and 10 from the B36-yd line or 1st and 1 from the B41yd-line (by accepting the foul itself but declining the yardage). Perhaps he feels that loss of five yards is worth having the short line to gain.

Legal, right? That being said, I'm not saying we go out and be trailblazers and provide this option but it does exist if a coach knew it and asked for it, right?

It is legal, and this option could be provided without the coach even having to ask for it. You referenced 10-1-1, but it also says "ART. 1 . . . When a foul occurs during a live ball, the referee shall, at the end of the down, notify both captains. He shall inform the captain of the offended team regarding the rights of penalty acceptance or declination and shall indicate to him the number of the ensuing down, distance to be gained, and status of the ball for each available choice."
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 06:34:27 PM by VA Official »

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2295
  • FAN REACTION: +278/-26
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 01:40:17 PM »
A situation I've seen occur a few times is on an encroachment foul on R on a kick try. If the kickers still plan to kick they may wish to decline the 1 1/2 yards as they are used to kicking from that spot. In those situations, the captain has requested : "Let's keep the ball where it is." I would be hesitant to offer in my penalty options "...and you can accept the penalty but decline the yardage." IMHO, penalty enforcement can be confusing enough without adding this. Like free kicking after a kick catching interference call, if the coach is aware of the option, he'll bring it up.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:42:39 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 233
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-13
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 03:06:30 PM »
IMHO, penalty enforcement can be confusing enough without adding this. Like free kicking after a kick catching interference call, if the coach is aware of the option, he'll bring it up.

Agreed.

I've had teams decline encroachment on the PAT try but that's usually just a straight decline because the down isn't important. I couldn't think of a time where a team would actually accept the penalty and decline the yardage until this one. But I guess if you have roughing the kicker and the kick is no good, maybe the kicker would want to decline the distance while accepting the foul so they get the replay from the 3yd line instead of the 1 1/2.

Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 07:03:02 PM »
A situation I've seen occur a few times is on an encroachment foul on R on a kick try. If the kickers still plan to kick they may wish to decline the 1 1/2 yards as they are used to kicking from that spot. In those situations, the captain has requested : "Let's keep the ball where it is." I would be hesitant to offer in my penalty options "...and you can accept the penalty but decline the yardage." IMHO, penalty enforcement can be confusing enough without adding this. Like free kicking after a kick catching interference call, if the coach is aware of the option, he'll bring it up.

I agree completely in your situation that we shouldn't muddy the water when their choice is evident or made clear. In the original situation though, why would you not provide the captain the information of down and distance if the penalty is declined? In your situation, every coach knows they can keep the ball where it is so it's not necessary to remind them of that. But, not every coach is thinking about 1st/1 vs. 1st/10 when dealing with penalty enforcement. It could be advantageous to them to decline the yards, and since we're technically required to do this by rule every time, this may be the one time we should. It's an uncommon situation when declining a penalty can be advantageous. But, I feel like this is the reason 10-1-1 requires the referee to inform the captain of what happens if he accepts or declines. Again, the vast majority of the time this isn't necessary and isn't a good practice, but maybe in this instance it is. Just interested in another viewpoint of why you wouldn't inform them in the OP.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 12:06:17 PM by VA Official »

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2155
  • FAN REACTION: +68/-23
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 06:07:36 AM »
On kick try fouls by R, I just ask the kicker "You wanna move it up, or kick from here?"

(And before the arrow barrage starts: If it's a situation where they might want to go for two, I always look to the K coach.)

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1092
  • FAN REACTION: +51/-19
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 07:59:21 AM »
A situation I've seen occur a few times is on an encroachment foul on R on a kick try. If the kickers still plan to kick they may wish to decline the 1 1/2 yards as they are used to kicking from that spot. In those situations, the captain has requested : "Let's keep the ball where it is." I would be hesitant to offer in my penalty options "...and you can accept the penalty but decline the yardage." IMHO, penalty enforcement can be confusing enough without adding this. Like free kicking after a kick catching interference call, if the coach is aware of the option, he'll bring it up.

Isn't this scenario the same as declining the ENC foul all together?

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2295
  • FAN REACTION: +278/-26
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 08:43:01 AM »
Isn't this scenario the same as declining the ENC foul all together?
In essence, as a dead ball foul, it is. I'll usually say : "They encroached, do you want the yardage??" Ayuh = they do, down to 1 1/2; a blank stare = means they do, down to 1 1/2.  Leave 'er = means they don't, leave 'er be. Remember, an accepted dead ball foul allows A to choose location of spot. 

Online bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 404
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-27
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 09:23:33 AM »
Here's one:

Team A trailing 10-9. 4:00 left in 4th quarter.

3rd and 10 on the 11.

Team A gains 9 yards on the play, down to the 2, but is face masked (doesn't matter which one).

Options:
4th and 1 at the 2. (Decline penalty)
1st and Goal at the 1 (Accept penalty)
1st and 1 at the 2. (Accept penalty but not yardage)

To eat the clock, I would rather take the last option, so I could sit on the ball twice, try to get a first down on third down, get a new series, sit on the ball three times again, then kick a field goal with no time remaining.



Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 10:43:05 AM »
Here's one:

Team A trailing 10-9. 4:00 left in 4th quarter.

3rd and 10 on the 11.

Team A gains 9 yards on the play, down to the 2, but is face masked (doesn't matter which one).

Options:
4th and 1 at the 2. (Decline penalty)
1st and Goal at the 1 (Accept penalty)
1st and 1 at the 2. (Accept penalty but not yardage)

To eat the clock, I would rather take the last option, so I could sit on the ball twice, try to get a first down on third down, get a new series, sit on the ball three times again, then kick a field goal with no time remaining.

The last option is not possible. First, in this case, the "yardage" and "penalty" are the same thing. The foul is the face mask, the penalty is 5 or 15 yards (or half the distance in this case). A face mask foul isn't an automatic first down. So, if A declines the distance penalty they are still behind the line to gain, leaving them with your first option of 4th/1 at the 2.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:47:59 AM by VA Official »

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2165
  • FAN REACTION: +78/-9
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 10:59:31 AM »
If they "accept the penalty" but decline the yardage, wouldn't it be 3/1 at the 2?  Accepting the penalty means the down is "replayed", doesn't it?

Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 11:33:19 AM »
If they "accept the penalty" but decline the yardage, wouldn't it be 3/1 at the 2?  Accepting the penalty means the down is "replayed", doesn't it?

That's a great point. I'm not entirely sure. I always understood that what is accepted or declined as a "penalty" is what is listed under a rule in the bold penalty section at the bottom, and a replay of down is often not listed there for most fouls. Some fouls do list replay of down in their penalty section, but it's mainly referenced in 5-2 where it talks about down and possession after a penalty. In this instance, 9-4-3h for the face mask only lists 15 yards under the "penalty" section. But by definition, a penalty is a "result" of a foul, and "replaying the down" is a result of a foul. I'm going to pass to someone more experienced on this one, because I can see the argument for both sides of this.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:37:10 AM by VA Official »

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • FAN REACTION: +49/-34
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 11:54:55 AM »
...I feel like this is the reason 10-1-1 requires the referee to inform the coach of what happens if he accepts or declines...Just interested in another viewpoint of why you wouldn't inform the coach in the OP.

I have read 10-1-1 many times and yet I have never found the word coach.

Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 11:57:31 AM »
I have read 10-1-1 many times and yet I have never found the word coach.

You're right, the rule says captain. I even quoted it in my first post where it says captain. I was just referring to reality where the captain is sometimes bypassed on tough enforcement decisions. I'll edit it so there's no further confusion.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 12:04:40 PM by VA Official »

Online bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 404
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-27
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 12:04:32 PM »
A face mask foul isn't an automatic first down.

That's what happens when I have NFL on the brain. I need to hit the books again, to refresh myself with high school rules.  :)

This play would be what I'm looking for then:
Team A trailing 10-9. 4:00 left in 4th quarter.

3rd and 10 on the 11.

Team A gains 9 yards on the play, down to the 2, but a personal foul is called for late hit on the QB.

Options:
4th and 1 at the 2. (Decline penalty)
1st and Goal at the 1 (Accept penalty - 1/2 the distance - 1 yard)
1st and 1 at the 2. (Accept penalty but not yardage)


Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2165
  • FAN REACTION: +78/-9
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 01:04:31 PM »
Options:
4th and 1 at the 2. (Decline penalty)
1st and Goal at the 1 (Accept penalty - 1/2 the distance - 1 yard)
1st and 1 at the 2. (Accept penalty but not yardage)

Again, if they "accept the penalty" but decline the yardage, wouldn't it be 3/1 at the 2?  Accepting the penalty means the down is "replayed", doesn't it?

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2295
  • FAN REACTION: +278/-26
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 08:55:57 AM »
Again, if they "accept the penalty" but decline the yardage, wouldn't it be 3/1 at the 2?  Accepting the penalty means the down is "replayed", doesn't it?
If it was roughing the passer it would be an AFD, just a plain vanilla PF = 3rd down.

IF THE CUBBIES WIN THE NL AND THE RED SOX WIN THE AL......

Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 09:00:31 AM »
If it was roughing the passer it would be an AFD, just a plain vanilla PF = 3rd down.


So if I'm reading that correctly, A can decline the distance portion of the penalty, but keep the replay of down aspect?

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2295
  • FAN REACTION: +278/-26
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 09:20:09 AM »
So if I'm reading that correctly, A can decline the distance portion of the penalty, but keep the replay of down aspect?
If you accept a penalty that doesn't specify loss of down or automatic first down, you replay the previous down unless the enforcement creates a new series .

EXAMPLES :

(1) 3rd & 10 @ 50; A1 runs to B's 20 ; A2 holds @ B's 29 = A 1/10 @ B's 39.

(2) 3rd & 10 @ 50; A1 runs to B's 20; A2 holds @ B's 31 = A 3/1 @ B's 41.

Hope this helps.

Online VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 91
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 09:50:37 AM »
If you accept a penalty that doesn't specify loss of down or automatic first down, you replay the previous down unless the enforcement creates a new series .

EXAMPLES :

(1) 3rd & 10 @ 50; A1 runs to B's 20 ; A2 holds @ B's 29 = A 1/10 @ B's 39.

(2) 3rd & 10 @ 50; A1 runs to B's 20; A2 holds @ B's 31 = A 3/1 @ B's 41.

Hope this helps.

That makes sense. I was just having trouble with bbeagle's first scenario with the face mask and the aspect of 5-2-1 where it says "when a penalty is declined, the number of the next down is the same as if the foul had not occurred." My original thinking was that the only thing that falls under this penalty is the yardage (since a face mask is not a LOD or AFD), so declining the yardage in essence declines the penalty. I didn't see the replay of down aspect as being incorporated in the penalty itself, but rather it was just what happened after the penalty was accepted or declined. But, it seems that it may be incorporated.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:16:08 AM by VA Official »

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • FAN REACTION: +49/-34
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 10:18:12 AM »
Isn't this scenario the same as declining the ENC foul all together?
On a Try, Yes and No
Yes, the result would be the same, we would repeat the Try from the B3
No, as statistically they would have an accepted foul however if they "decline the ENC all together" then statistically they would not have an accepted foul.

This would be best answered by Coach Atlanta Joe as he is a stats guru

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3715
  • FAN REACTION: +302/-230
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 10:23:18 AM »
Has anyone heard from Atlanta Blue? He has just dropped out of sight.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • FAN REACTION: +49/-34
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 10:31:33 AM »
Has anyone heard from Atlanta Blue? He has just dropped out of sight.

Yes, he is very active, alive and well,
albiet on a different web board.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:34:33 AM by KWH »

Online bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 404
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-27
Re: Accepting penalty but declining yardage
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2017, 12:06:15 PM »
I was just having trouble with bbeagle's first scenario with the face mask and the aspect of 5-2-1 where it says "when a penalty is declined, the number of the next down is the same as if the foul had not occurred." My original thinking was that the only thing that falls under this penalty is the yardage (since a face mask is not a LOD or AFD), so declining the yardage in essence declines the penalty. I didn't see the replay of down aspect as being incorporated in the penalty itself, but rather it was just what happened after the penalty was accepted or declined. But, it seems that it may be incorporated.

Rule 10-6 states which fouls by A include the loss of the right to replay a down, and Rule 10-7 states the fouls which give an automatic first down. Rule 10-1 says that 'The distance penalty for any foul may be declined'.

Any accepted foul causes the down to remain the same (Rule 5-2)
 
A penalty includes:
(a) yardage (some penalties don't include this like a sideline warning)
(b) replay of down (or loss of down in 10-6) (or first down in 10-7)

You can choose to decline 'a' (accept penalty, decline yardage portion), decline both 'a' and 'b' (i.e. declining the penalty), but you can't decline just 'b'.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:09:51 PM by bbeagle »