Author Topic: kickoff out of bounds?  (Read 1195 times)

Offline refjeff

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kickoff out of bounds?
« on: August 08, 2017, 09:18:07 AM »
K's kickoff rolls to the 4 yard line and very near the sideline.  R1 hustles to retrieve the kick and (a) R1's momentum is such that he inadvertently steps on the sideline before he picks up the ball and turns to run upfield or (b) seeing where he's at, R1 deliberately steps out of bounds before he picks up the ball.  What's the status of the ball?  What fouls do we have?  Where is the ball next put into play?

Needed to be more specific, (a) foot on the line when he picks up the ball and (b) still OOB when he picks up the ball.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:57:36 AM by refjeff »

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 09:51:31 AM »
K's kickoff rolls to the 4 yard line and very near the sideline.  R1 hustles to retrieve the kick and (a) R1's momentum is such that he inadvertently steps on the sideline before he picks up the ball and turns to run upfield or (b) seeing where he's at, R1 deliberately steps out of bounds before he picks up the ball.  What's the status of the ball?  What fouls do we have?  Where is the ball next put into play?

(a) - If R1 is still touching the sideline when he picks up the ball, the ball becomes dead when touched.  1st & 10 for R at R's 4 yard line.  If R1 has returned to an inbounds position, ball remains live and will be put in play at the spot where R1's run ends (assuming that he retains possession).

(b) - If R1 is still out of bounds when he picks up ball, no problem and same as in (a).  If R1 has returned to an inbounds position before he picks up ball, R1 is guilty of IP, but ball remains live and the spot where it will be put in play will be determined by ensuing action and whether K accepts or declines penalty for IP.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 10:02:08 AM »
(a) - If R1 is still touching the sideline when he picks up the ball, the ball becomes dead when touched.  1st & 10 for R at R's 4 yard line.  If R1 has returned to an inbounds position, ball remains live and will be put in play at the spot where R1's run ends (assuming that he retains possession).

(b) - If R1 is still out of bounds when he picks up ball, no problem and same as in (a).  If R1 has returned to an inbounds position before he picks up ball, R1 is guilty of IP, but ball remains live and the spot where it will be put in play will be determined by ensuing action and whether K accepts or declines penalty for IP.

I disagree with half of (b). If R1 deliberately steps out of bounds and then intentionally touches the ball, he is guilty of illegal participation. He does not need to return to an in-bounds position prior to touching the ball to commit IP. The subsections of 9-6-2 are clarified with an "or" not an "and".

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 10:11:13 AM »
I disagree with half of (b). If R1 deliberately steps out of bounds and then intentionally touches the ball, he is guilty of illegal participation. He does not need to return to an in-bounds position prior to touching the ball to commit IP. The subsections of 9-6-2 are clarified with an "or" not an "and".

I think you are correct!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 10:15:55 AM »
Also consider R straddling the sidelines and catching an airborne free kick. Once touched, the kick is OOB, BUT if the kick hasn't broken the sideline plane, it isn't a foul by K, just R's ball where touched. The reinstated 4-3-1 PlayPic A on page 122 of S & I gives support to that.

An easy call, as we have two officials on each sideline for a free kick. They'll be able to get a good view of the sideline plane.

PS : Prab is correct in thinking that NCwingman is correct aWaRd aWaRd

Offline ncwingman

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 10:25:12 AM »
To address the enforcement portion/where is the ball next put in play -- if R deliberately goes out of bounds prior to touching/gaining possession of the free kick (whether he's still OOB or not), this is a foul by R on a loose ball play. The IP penalty (if accepted) is from the previous spot and we rekick. Alternatively, K can decline the foul and (a) if R had returned to the field, take the results of the ensuing run or (b) if R was still OOB, it is R's ball at the OOB spot.

Offline refjeff

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 11:53:28 AM »
Also consider R straddling the sidelines and catching an airborne free kick. Once touched, the kick is OOB, BUT if the kick hasn't broken the sideline plane, it isn't a foul by K, just R's ball where touched. The reinstated 4-3-1 PlayPic A on page 122 of S & I gives support to that.
 

I'm confused.  PlayPic A on p122 doesn't help me.  It describes a "receiver (who) possesses the free kick before he touched out of bounds," not straddling the sideline. 

If the kick is OOB as soon as it's touched, then R never touched it inbounds and K kicked the ball OOB.

No?

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 01:51:28 PM »
Also consider R straddling the sidelines and catching an airborne free kick. Once touched, the kick is OOB, BUT if the kick hasn't broken the sideline plane, it isn't a foul by K, just R's ball where touched. The reinstated 4-3-1 PlayPic A on page 122 of S & I gives support to that.

An easy call, as we have two officials on each sideline for a free kick. They'll be able to get a good view of the sideline plane.

PS : Prab is correct in thinking that NCwingman is correct aWaRd aWaRd

Ralph, we no longer get the S & I books here in Georgia but your ruling seems to conflict with Reddings.

Reddings Example 6-12: "R24 is standing with one foot out of bounds when he receives Team K's free kick before or after it touches the ground inbounds. When R24 touches the ball it is (a) beyond the sideline plane, or (b) over the field of play. RULING: In (a) and (b), it is a foul by Team K for a free kick out of bounds. The ball is out of bounds because it touches a player who is out of bounds (6.1.9C)

Discuss

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 01:55:17 PM »
See also casebook 6.1.9 Situation C:

"R1 is running near a sideline as he attempts to catch a free kick in flight. R1 has ... one foot on the sideline when he reaches through the plane of the sideline. The ball bouncess off his hands and lands out of bounds. RULING: ... Since R1 is out of bounds when the ball is touched, the kicker has caused the ball to be out of bounds."

Online edtude

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 02:16:44 PM »
See also casebook 6.1.9 Situation C:

"R1 is running near a sideline as he attempts to catch a free kick in flight. R1 has ... one foot on the sideline when he reaches through the plane of the sideline. The ball bouncess off his hands and lands out of bounds. RULING: ... Since R1 is out of bounds when the ball is touched, the kicker has caused the ball to be out of bounds."

This has always been my understanding of the play. The kick is the force that put the ball out of bounds.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 04:47:16 PM »
I agree with the KOB scenarios. K is responsible and has fouled.
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Online Ump33

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 07:00:46 AM »
Attached picture is from 2005 Simplified & Illustrated. When comparing it with CB 6.1.9C, it appears that the NFHS uses a similar philosophy to that of a fly ball in baseball. "Where was the ball when it was touched."

In the Play Pic, the receiver has one foot OB and he contacts the ball above the field of play. Since the ball did not go OB untouched by R, it will be R's ball at the 14 yard line (4-3-1).

In CB 6.1.9C, the receiver with one foot on the sideline "reaches through the plane of the sideline" and contacts the ball that is above the OB area. Since the ball was beyond the sideline plane and above the OB area when touched by R, the ball has gone OB untouched by R and the kick is OB.   

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 08:22:28 AM »
Attached picture is from 2005 Simplified & Illustrated. When comparing it with CB 6.1.9C, it appears that the NFHS uses a similar philosophy to that of a fly ball in baseball. "Where was the ball when it was touched."

In the Play Pic, the receiver has one foot OB and he contacts the ball above the field of play. Since the ball did not go OB untouched by R, it will be R's ball at the 14 yard line (4-3-1).

In CB 6.1.9C, the receiver with one foot on the sideline "reaches through the plane of the sideline" and contacts the ball that is above the OB area. Since the ball was beyond the sideline plane and above the OB area when touched by R, the ball has gone OB untouched by R and the kick is OB.

I believe this is the Play Pic that Ralph said has been reinstated in the S&I because I know it was taken out for a few years. If it has been reinstated, I would lean towards the S&I over Reddings.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 08:33:38 AM »
I agree with Ump33 because Ump33 agrees with me :).....

Back in 2000, Rule 6-1-9 was tweaked as it used to read "...kicked out of bounds between the goal lines LAST TOUCHED by K." This caused a kick in midfield, after several muffs, to become a foul if OOB last touched by K.

I was both the rule change sponsor and a member of the Editorial Committee back then and was responsible for case plays answering the "what ifs" that always occur with a rule change. A couple of  "what ifs" that we tried to answer were:

(1) A bouncing kick near the sideline is touched by a R player who is touching the sideline. The general feeling back then was that was covered by 4-3-1 : "When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline. When the ball becomes dead in THE FIELD OF PLAY BECAUSE OF TOUCHING A PERSON WHO IS OUT OF BOUNDS, THE OUT-OF-BOUNDS SPOT is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball."

(2) An airborne kick caught/touched by a R player touching the sidelines. While we felt this was also covered by 4-3-1, we added a caption of such to the S & I (pg 43, S & I 2004) with the explanation : "Since the receiver touched the kick with the ball INSIDE THE SIDELINE PLANE he is considered to have caused the ball to be out of bounds. The ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot...". Any of you (probably all of you) with posting capabilities, if you PM me your FAX #, I can FAX you a copy.

The Case Book and Simplified & Illustrated don't grow in size and every year perfectly valid cases and illustrations are removed to make room for newer ones. This issue raised it's ugly head last Fall when the Green Bay Packers receiving team pulled something like this off. My understanding was the Wisconsin high school officials were told not to allow it at our level. I've always felt that this was a fair interp and that 4-3-1 gave rule support. While some may feel that 9-6-2b could be applied, IMHO, you then would have to read intent. Hope this helps.
 
Both the Case Book and S & I are official NFHS rulings and trump other sources.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 09:23:31 AM by Ralph Damren »

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 08:58:35 AM »
I agree with Ump33 because Ump33 agrees with me :).....

Back in 2000, Rule 6-1-9 was tweaked as it used to read "...kicked out of bounds between the goal lines LAST TOUCHED by R." This caused a kick in midfield, after several muffs, to become a foul if OOB last touched by K.

I was both the rule change sponsor and a member of the Editorial Committee back then and was responsible for case plays answering the "what ifs" that always occur with a rule change. A couple of  "what ifs" that we tried to answer were:

(1) A bouncing kick near the sideline is touched by a R player who is touching the sideline. The general feeling back then was that was covered by 4-3-1 : "When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline. When the ball becomes dead in THE FIELD OF PLAY BECAUSE OF TOUCHING A PERSON WHO IS OUT OF BOUNDS, THE OUT-OF-BOUNDS SPOT is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball."

(2) An airborne kick caught/touched by a R player touching the sidelines. While we felt this was also covered by 4-3-1, we added a caption of such to the S & I (pg 43, S & I 2004) with the explanation : "Since the receiver touched the kick with the ball INSIDE THE SIDELINE PLANE he is considered to have caused the ball to be out of bounds. The ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot...". Any of you (probably all of you) with posting capabilities, if you PM me your FAX #, I can FAX you a copy.

The Case Book and Simplified & Illustrated don't grow in size and every year perfectly valid cases and illustrations are removed to make room for newer ones. This issue raised it's ugly head last Fall when the Green Bay Packers receiving team pulled something like this off. My understanding was the Wisconsin high school officials were told not to allow it at our level. I've always felt that this was a fair interp and that 4-3-1 gave rule support. While some may feel that9-6-2b could be applied, IMHO, you then would have to read intent. Hope this helps.
 
Both the Case Book and S & I are official NFHS rulings and trump other sources.

Perfect explanation Ralph. Thanks for the insight.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 09:22:20 AM »
I agree with Ump33 because Ump33 agrees with me :).....

Back in 2000, Rule 6-1-9 was tweaked as it used to read "...kicked out of bounds between the goal lines LAST TOUCHED by K." This caused a kick in midfield, after several muffs, to become a foul if OOB last touched by K.

I was both the rule change sponsor and a member of the Editorial Committee back then and was responsible for case plays answering the "what ifs" that always occur with a rule change. A couple of  "what ifs" that we tried to answer were:

(1) A bouncing kick near the sideline is touched by a R player who is touching the sideline. The general feeling back then was that was covered by 4-3-1 : "When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline. When the ball becomes dead in THE FIELD OF PLAY BECAUSE OF TOUCHING A PERSON WHO IS OUT OF BOUNDS, THE OUT-OF-BOUNDS SPOT is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball."

(2) An airborne kick caught/touched by a R player touching the sidelines. While we felt this was also covered by 4-3-1, we added a caption of such to the S & I (pg 43, S & I 2004) with the explanation : "Since the receiver touched the kick with the ball INSIDE THE SIDELINE PLANE he is considered to have caused the ball to be out of bounds. The ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot...". Any of you (probably all of you) with posting capabilities, if you PM me your FAX #, I can FAX you a copy.

The Case Book and Simplified & Illustrated don't grow in size and every year perfectly valid cases and illustrations are removed to make room for newer ones. This issue raised it's ugly head last Fall when the Green Bay Packers receiving team pulled something like this off. My understanding was the Wisconsin high school officials were told not to allow it at our level. I've always felt that this was a fair interp and that 4-3-1 gave rule support. While some may feel that9-6-2b could be applied, IMHO, you then would have to read intent. Hope this helps.
 
Both the Case Book and S & I are official NFHS rulings and trump other sources.

This is all fine and perfectly rationale. I wouldn't even say I necessarily disagree with the ruling in merit. I also agree that the Case Book and S&I trump Reddings in this case.

I guess my point of contention (which is much too strong a word) is now this: We (or at least I) have been working under the assumption that this play was a KOB foul for the past few years. That seemed supportable through the casebook and without this S&I diagram being there. The ruling was even supported by my state (GA).

Now, simply by adding a diagram back to the S&I book a totally new ruling has presented itself? No mention in the rule book as a rule change or editorial change? Some murky waters.

Not necessarily a criticism, but it's a little unsettling.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 10:17:56 AM »
This is all fine and perfectly rationale. I wouldn't even say I necessarily disagree with the ruling in merit. I also agree that the Case Book and S&I trump Reddings in this case.

I guess my point of contention (which is much too strong a word) is now this: We (or at least I) have been working under the assumption that this play was a KOB foul for the past few years. That seemed supportable through the casebook and without this S&I diagram being there. The ruling was even supported by my state (GA).

Now, simply by adding a diagram back to the S&I book a totally new ruling has presented itself? No mention in the rule book as a rule change or editorial change? Some murky waters.

Not necessarily a criticism, but it's a little unsettling.
I agree that it should be more clearer and will lobby for Case 6.1.9C(b) to be more detailed as it now only reads : R has "(b) one foot on the sideline, when he reaches through the plane of the sideline. The ball bounces off his hands and lands out of bounds." The original version , 6-1-8C (pg38 2005 CB) read : (b) one foot on the sideline, when he reaches through the plane of the sideline. The ball was beyond the sideline plane when touched by R1; or (c) same as (b) EXCEPT THE BALL IS NOT BEYOND THE SIDELINE PLANE WHEN TOUCHED."   RULING : (b) since R1 is out of bounds when the ball is touched, the kicker has caused to ball to be out of bounds BECAUSE IT WAS BEYOND THE PLANE OF THE SIDELINE WHEN FIRST TOUCHED BY R1. In (c) R1 HAS CAUSED THE BALL TO BE OUT OF BOUNDS."

Understand your confusion and , in the interest of conformity, should go by what your state dictates. In Maine, we'll do it the way we always have since 2000.

Univ. of Maine has played Georgia Southern a few times in post-season, but they play by a different set of laws :).

Online Ump33

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 10:35:48 AM »
I agree with Ump33 because Ump33 agrees with me :).....

To paraphrase an old EF Hutton tv commercial ... When Ralph talks, I listen.

Thanks Ralph, I have learned much over the years from you.

Offline refjeff

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 10:40:13 AM »
Just so I understand, and maybe I still do not, 

R1 is straddling the sideline at the 5 yard lane, left foot inbounds and right foot out of bounds, when he recovers a bouncing kickoff.  If the ball bounces into his left hand, inside the vertical plane, the ball is OOB because R1 is OOB.  1st & 10 for R on the 5 yard line.  If the ball bounces through the vertical plane into R1's right hand the ball is OOB because K kicked it OOB and we have a foul.  R can take the ball on the 35 or back K up 5 yards and kick again.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 11:09:29 AM by refjeff »

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 11:09:57 AM »
Univ. of Maine has played Georgia Southern a few times in post-season, but they play by a different set of laws :).

I was a student one year when Maine played at Georgia Southern in the playoffs. Pretty sure it was the Quarterfinals.

We won. :)

Online prab

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 11:15:35 AM »
To paraphrase an old EF Hutton tv commercial ... When Ralph talks, I listen.


I agree, except when he talks about the Patriots or Red Sox.  (Disclaimer, just because he is right doesn't mean that I have to agree with him.)

Online Ump33

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 11:41:13 AM »
Just so I understand, and maybe I still do not, 

R1 is straddling the sideline at the 5 yard lane, left foot inbounds and right foot out of bounds, when he recovers a bouncing kickoff.  If the ball bounces into his left hand, inside the vertical plane, the ball is OOB because R1 is OOB.  1st & 10 for R on the 5 yard line.  If the ball bounces through the vertical plane into R1's right hand the ball is OOB because K kicked it OOB and we have a foul.  R can take the ball on the 35 or back K up 5 yards and kick again.

Yes, that is the way I understand the rule.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 02:19:06 PM »
A bouncing kick that has yet to touch OOB touches R, who is straddling the sideline = OOB caused by R, R has new series.

An airborne kick that touches R, who is straddling the sidelines, BEFORE the kick breaks the sideline plane = OOB caused by R, R has new series.

An airborne kick that touches R, who is straddling the sidelines, AFTER the kick breaks the sideline plane = OOB caused by K, foul.

On only an airborne kick would you need to consider the sideline plane. The feeling back in 2000 was that a bouncing kick was in bounds until it landed OOB. If it touched R ,who was touching OOB, it would be considered R fault the kick went OOB.

Hope that helps to make it clearer.

PS : SouthGA, I believe Maine has played Georgia  Southern a few times.
         I believe Maine has lost to Georgia Southern a few times.
          South of Mason-Dixon, Maine football hasn't faired well :)...

Offline js in sc

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 09:34:31 PM »
 ???
I guess my question is about NFHS Rule 2-29-3, which states that "a loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or official, that is out of bounds".  It doesn't say whether the ball crosses the line or not.  If this kick touches an R player who is out of bounds, is not the ball out of bounds, regardless of where it is?  Wouldn't this would make this a free kick out of bounds by K in both situations in NFHS?

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Re: kickoff out of bounds?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 09:56:00 PM »
???
I guess my question is about NFHS Rule 2-29-3, which states that "a loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or official, that is out of bounds".  It doesn't say whether the ball crosses the line or not.  If this kick touches an R player who is out of bounds, is not the ball out of bounds, regardless of where it is?  Wouldn't this would make this a free kick out of bounds by K in both situations in NFHS?

The ball is out of bounds and the definition still holds true. The definition doesn't cover who is responsible for putting the ball out of bounds. That's what Ralph's explanation and the S&I Play Pic provide.