Author Topic: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......  (Read 7784 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #150 on: March 18, 2019, 11:42:37 AM »
 tiphat: HATS OFF TO JasonTX, while he wandered off the ranch to add a suggestion, HE moved this topic into "rare air"  tiphat:

His post was the 149th on this topic which exceeded the previous longest of 148 on April 4, 2016. That topic also dealt with new rules. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys, from a rule perspective, I can only compare this with 1981. That year, both coaches and officials were all in a tizzy with the birth of the free blocking zone. IMHO, the 40" clock will impact we officials much more than the coaches. It's our new rule and we WILL MAKE IT WORK.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 11:47:30 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 611
  • FAN REACTION: +130/-4
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #151 on: March 18, 2019, 12:04:52 PM »
tiphat: HATS OFF TO JasonTX, while he wandered off the ranch to add a suggestion, HE moved this topic into "rare air"  tiphat:

His post was the 149th on this topic which exceeded the previous longest of 148 on April 4, 2016. That topic also dealt with new rules. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys, from a rule perspective, I can only compare this with 1981. That year, both coaches and officials were all in a tizzy with the birth of the free blocking zone. IMHO, the 40" clock will impact we officials much more than the coaches. It's our new rule and we WILL MAKE IT WORK.

I have been through rolling out the 40-second clock twice now, first in NCAA and then as an experimental state. The items you have mentioned were all concerns in both instances before they were started but neither became issues once we were rolling. Everyone realized, "hey this is easier." But there will be anxiety and plans by teams to go as fast as they can. They'll realize pretty quickly you can't get a play called and run as fast as you thought you could.

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-3
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2019, 01:17:04 PM »
Do you have any additional information on the POE dealing with the expanded neutral zone? What was the problem and what is the suggested fix?

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1405
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-22
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2019, 02:39:26 PM »
Do you have any additional information on the POE dealing with the expanded neutral zone? What was the problem and what is the suggested fix?

I know one point of confusion was do you expand the NZ for Offensive linemen going down field?  Do they get 2 yards to roam, or does that just apply when they engage someone at the LOS?

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 763
  • FAN REACTION: +25/-23
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #154 on: March 20, 2019, 07:11:34 AM »
Are we not stopping the clock so we can set the chains?  Also, I thought the :40 clock was implemented to give consistency between play, not to speed up the snap interval?

If that’s the case, there’s no harm or foul in waiting for the chains to be set.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #155 on: March 20, 2019, 07:26:12 AM »
I know one point of confusion was do you expand the NZ for Offensive linemen going down field?  Do they get 2 yards to roam, or does that just apply when they engage someone at the LOS?
I think Bossman has the basics of it. There was a discussion around the expanded NZ being for only A/K linesmen driving B/R linesman back and not a roaming ground for big ole' Bubba,


Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #156 on: March 20, 2019, 07:34:06 AM »
I'm assembling, by chronology, my top ten list of : "OH NO, THE SKY IS FALLING " rule changes that I'm seen occur since my start with NFHS in 1971. I'm sure each one of you has some, so let's share. As Chicken Little found out, the sky didn't fall (game didn't crumble) and play moved on after many changes that we felt would ruin it.

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (7-man crew)

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 895
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-61
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #157 on: March 20, 2019, 07:54:20 AM »
Are we not stopping the clock so we can set the chains?  Also, I thought the :40 clock was implemented to give consistency between play, not to speed up the snap interval?

If that’s the case, there’s no harm or foul in waiting for the chains to be set.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Speaking from experience from the NCAA side of things, when the 40-second clock was introduced - yes, for the primary purpose of gaining greater consistency in getting the ball declared ready for play - the side effect was that, suddenly, teams knew that, officially, because the play clock was running, they could snap the ball the moment the ball was placed on the ground.  Teams saw that they could develop a really high-paced offense, and that's exactly what happened.  I know that we weren't waiting on the chains, at all - not necessarily even the box man.  But we started getting more mobile box men that could get to the succeeding spot before the next snap, so it wasn't really a big problem.  The chains could get there soon enough afterward and get set off the box man.  Yes, it has tended to breed a bit more youthful and mobile chain crews, which is what you will need to address with your member institutions.   
Advance a couple of years, and, due to issues with substitution, officials were directed to stay on the ball to prevent the snap, if A was making subs (to give B the chance to match up), which happens very frequently at the FBS level, but not nearly so much for HS.  That helps to provide additional time to get the box and chains set.  And note that, as long as an official is holding the snap, officially, the ball is not ready for play.

Of course, do what your governing body tells you to do.  But, with the 40-second clock beginning automatically, teams have an expectation of being able to snap the ball quickly, and run high-paced offenses, which means the chain crews are going to have get much better.

Another thing.  If you haven't been used to raising a hand to signify "dead ball" at the end of a down, you will have to get some practice at that before your first real games.  In the absence of a time-out signal (for out of bounds, or to award a news series to Team A), an incomplete pass signal, or a score signal, that is what signals the PCO to start the 40-second clock for the next down.

It will be OK.  In a few years, you won't miss the previous process.

Robert

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2351
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-25
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2019, 07:32:09 AM »
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Dropping beanbags to spot the box?  Who retrieves them?  How many will H need to carry??

Finding more “youthful and mobile” chain crews?  Good luck with that!  We have some games where home management has to beg to even get three — and on occasion a visiting parent has to fill in.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2019, 08:39:45 AM »
Here are some "the sky is following" rule changes that I've seen, and we're still playing football.....

YEAR     RULE#   RULE                                                                      PHOBIA
-----      -------    ------------------------------------------------               --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1972     2-21-1   player OOB if touches goalpost                                 No one will dare to go into end zone.
1976     7-1-1     B/R DB encroachment if in NZ                                  A/K will use this to draw opponents in.
1981     2-2-2     no BBW outside of FBZ                                            BLOCKING SCHEMES RUINED - GAME HAS BECOME 2-HAND TOUCH.
1982     2-5        coach can go to huddle on TO                                  He'll only want to argue, not coach.
1982     2-17-2   # exceptions report to U                                          Not a good idea (it changed next year).
1989     1-5-3n   no knots on jerseys                                                 How will we ever see that?
1992     6-1-9b   KO OOB has choice of 25 yd. award                          Everyone wants to see a kickoff return.
1995     7-5-2d   Spike to ball to stop the clock                                   Allowing QB to cheat will ruin game.
1996     3-4-3b   Clock on snap after COP                                           Games will last forever.
2003     2-16-2g PSK                                                                        Too complex, officials will never be able to handle.
2004     2-6-2a   no # limit to sideline huddle                                     Crowd to big for one official to handle.
             3-5-2a  head coach can call TO                                            How will we be able to see/identify him?
2009     2-14-2  new definition of scrimmage kick formation                 Too complex, we can't keep track.
2011     2-6-1    teams to sidelines during injuries                                Subs & coaches may push for revenge.
2013     1-6       communication devices expanded                               Rich schools have 'em, poor schools won't.
            7-5-10  LOD @ AFD gone from PI                                           Coaches will use this on goal to go.
2014     2-20-2  Targeting added                                                        How can we tell intent?
            6-1-3b  free kick formation requirements                                 How are ever going to tell?
2017    2-24-10 pop-up kick outlawed                                                   "      "     "       "      "   "
2019                 40' clock                                                                   WE WILL ADJUST !!!

SPECIAL MENTION : 1976...9-5-5  Prohibits a member of the passing team to bat a backward pass forward. In 1975 ,U-Maine used this as a trick play to beat arch-rival UNH. It received national acclaim and was outlawed the following year by NCAA & NFHS.

Those are mine, guys, let's hear yours and your opinions of mine.....

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:           
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 08:43:08 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2151
  • FAN REACTION: +83/-30
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2019, 01:40:18 PM »
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Dropping beanbags to spot the box?  Who retrieves them?  How many will H need to carry??

Finding more “youthful and mobile” chain crews?  Good luck with that!  We have some games where home management has to beg to even get three — and on occasion a visiting parent has to fill in.

The box guy will pick it up and give to the H when he gets there.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1405
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-22
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2019, 02:37:59 PM »
SPECIAL MENTION : 1976...9-5-5  Prohibits a member of the passing team to bat a backward pass forward. In 1975 ,U-Maine used this as a trick play to beat arch-rival UNH. It received national acclaim and was outlawed the following year by NCAA & NFHS.     

You'll have to explain this play, as I'm having trouble visualizing or seeing how this could be "tricky".

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 366
  • FAN REACTION: +132/-39
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2019, 03:50:17 PM »
You'll have to explain this play, as I'm having trouble visualizing or seeing how this could be "tricky".


4th Period 0:03 on clock
U-Maine trails be 2
U-Maine ball 4th and goal on the B5 yard line.
U-Maine uses its last timeout and brings in the Field Goal Team
U-Maine snapper snaps the ball directly to the kicker who bats the "backward pass" forward,
and the ball flutters like a wounded duck into the endzone.
The Gun operator fires his BLANK into the air.
The UNH players jump in the air for joy thinking they just won the game, when.....

...wait....

The U-Maine snapper falls on the ball in the endzone??? 

 The officials gather, put their heads together and ^good - Touchdown! - Game over!
Maine Blackbears win - Maine Blackbears win - Maine Blackbears win

NCAA adds rule 9-4-2
NFHS adds rule 9-7-3

...and now you know the rest of the story...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 04:11:06 PM by KWH »

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 366
  • FAN REACTION: +132/-39
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2019, 03:53:12 PM »
Ralph -

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe the snapper left the field in the arms of the Prom Queen???
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 04:10:06 PM by KWH »

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2351
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-25
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2019, 07:44:52 AM »
We were right about the 1996 clock change, although it’s only part of the reason games now last up to three hours.

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 611
  • FAN REACTION: +130/-4
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #165 on: March 22, 2019, 08:27:25 AM »
Speaking from experience from the NCAA side of things, when the 40-second clock was introduced - yes, for the primary purpose of gaining greater consistency in getting the ball declared ready for play - the side effect was that, suddenly, teams knew that, officially, because the play clock was running, they could snap the ball the moment the ball was placed on the ground.  Teams saw that they could develop a really high-paced offense, and that's exactly what happened.  I know that we weren't waiting on the chains, at all - not necessarily even the box man.  But we started getting more mobile box men that could get to the succeeding spot before the next snap, so it wasn't really a big problem.  The chains could get there soon enough afterward and get set off the box man.  Yes, it has tended to breed a bit more youthful and mobile chain crews, which is what you will need to address with your member institutions.   
Advance a couple of years, and, due to issues with substitution, officials were directed to stay on the ball to prevent the snap, if A was making subs (to give B the chance to match up), which happens very frequently at the FBS level, but not nearly so much for HS.  That helps to provide additional time to get the box and chains set.  And note that, as long as an official is holding the snap, officially, the ball is not ready for play.

Of course, do what your governing body tells you to do.  But, with the 40-second clock beginning automatically, teams have an expectation of being able to snap the ball quickly, and run high-paced offenses, which means the chain crews are going to have get much better.

Another thing.  If you haven't been used to raising a hand to signify "dead ball" at the end of a down, you will have to get some practice at that before your first real games.  In the absence of a time-out signal (for out of bounds, or to award a news series to Team A), an incomplete pass signal, or a score signal, that is what signals the PCO to start the 40-second clock for the next down.

It will be OK.  In a few years, you won't miss the previous process.

Robert
The ball is not ready the instance the umpire/CJ puts the ball down. He/she still has to wait for the U/C to step away. We still control pace. If our officials (which includes the chain crew) is not in position the U/C doesn't step away. I remember my first game I was stepping away immediately and my wings screamed at me to make sure they were in position. We slowed it down in the second half. They were still able to snap at 25-30 on many plays, but I was stepping away at 34-36 in some cases.

We didn't find the chain crews needed to be significantly more mobile in NFHS but we went at a fairly consistent pace before. If a crew was VERY lenient with the chain crews and waited 20-30 seconds for the chain crew to saunter down, this will be a change. But they are one of the key reasons this change probably came about. Massive inconsistency with dead ball time from play to play affects the flow of the game and the rhythm the teams try to be in from a timing standpoint.

I would say it will be OK in a week or two for most crews. We have a lot of bad crews in our state and they were fine (at least no worse than they were before).

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2019, 08:34:53 AM »
You'll have to explain this play, as I'm having trouble visualizing or seeing how this could be "tricky".
KWH was on the right track, but being at the game, here was my murky memory :

Homecoming vs UNH with the winner receiving the Brice Memorial Musket (said to have been used by some guy named Brice in the War of 1812). It was pouring rain (and beer in the frat houses). No score, 4th qtr., Maine with 4th down on UNH's 20, when....

(1) Maine lined up for a field goal;
(2) Maine's kicker was a better volleyball player;
(3) holder took snap and lobbed ball into air- a backward pass;
(4) kicker batted backward pass toward end zone;
(5) lone UNH player felt it was a lousy kick;
(6) Maine TE knew that it wasn't;
(7) he scooped up ball and waded into end zone;
 ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (only 5-man crew then);
(8) our section all leaped up - some fell -alcohol may have been a contributing factor;
(9) our kicker missed the PAT - remember he was better at volleyball;
(10) final score = 6-0, Brice musket stays in Maine;
(11) frat house bars stayed open longer;
(12) homecoming queen- remember, this is college - and kicker/volleyball player could not be found.

This made  NFL Highlights the next day, it also made new rule proposals for both NCAA & NFHS shortly thereafter.

.....and now you really know the rest of the story... aWaRd

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #167 on: March 22, 2019, 08:43:34 AM »
We were right about the 1996 clock change, although it’s only part of the reason games now last up to three hours.
For several years after this was a major gripe at the rules meeting. A study showed :

(1) With expansion of passing game = more passes = more incomplete passes = more dead time;

(2) Higher scores = TD = dead time = PAT = dead time to KO = ave. 4:20 dead time between scores;

(3) Snap on COP = 10:00 per game - remember, inc. pass, OOB & FC on turnovers were snap clocks, anyway.

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 366
  • FAN REACTION: +132/-39
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #168 on: March 22, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »

.....and now you really know the rest of the story... aWaRd

...Somehow, Ralph always tells a story better than me.
Maybe its the language barrier...

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3521
  • FAN REACTION: +276/-520
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #169 on: March 22, 2019, 10:19:09 AM »
All 3 are reality, but #2 is a real (correctable) problem.  Wasted time between a Try and the subsequent KO has become predictably laughable. 

It seems no matter how many scores happen during a game, somehow a redundant strategy clinic is required to determine how to next put the ball in play.  Even when the same 11 players (from either team) comprise the KO formation, each seems to require detailed, and personal, instructions on where/how to line up and what their function should be.  Despite all the personal reviews, and repetition, somehow "stragglers" are a fairly consistent occurrence.

Unfortunately, that nonsense is on "US", for allowing it to happen.  No telling what difference a consistent DOG requirement might produce, or bad habits it might reduce. The entire officiating crew is lined up in position, the chain crew is patiently waiting on the sideline, waiting for players to enter the field and a subsequent (and prompt) RFP whistle.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • FAN REACTION: +365/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #170 on: March 22, 2019, 11:05:29 AM »
The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Dropping beanbags to spot the box?  Who retrieves them?  How many will H need to carry??

Finding more “youthful and mobile” chain crews?  Good luck with that!  We have some games where home management has to beg to even get three — and on occasion a visiting parent has to fill in.

I spoke at the Maine Football Coaches Clinic last weekend. 40" clock was their prime attraction. Regarding the chain crew/ball boys , I said this : "We officials will do our best, BUT it will YOUR responsibility to insure that we have a chain crew that is active and mobile AND ball boys that are attentive to action on the field, not up in the stands. Will you relay this to your game management ?" They agreed. They then gave me a tee-shirt that read : MAINE FOOTBALL COACHES ASSOCIATION. Not sure where to wear it, but it is the color of my penalty flag

 ^flag

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1405
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-22
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #171 on: March 22, 2019, 11:17:17 AM »
All 3 are reality, but #2 is a real (correctable) problem.  Wasted time between a Try and the subsequent KO has become predictably laughable. 

I agree.  I notice that officials aren't keeping the teams on schedule.  They let the teams dictate when they want to go out for the kickoff by being laissez faire with the issue.  We can do a better job of hitting whistles and being "annoying" to get them out on the field and keeping the game on schedule.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1405
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-22
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #172 on: March 22, 2019, 11:26:00 AM »
KWH was on the right track, but being at the game, here was my murky memory :

Homecoming vs UNH with the winner receiving the Brice Memorial Musket (said to have been used by some guy named Brice in the War of 1812). It was pouring rain (and beer in the frat houses). No score, 4th qtr., Maine with 4th down on UNH's 20, when....

(1) Maine lined up for a field goal;
(2) Maine's kicker was a better volleyball player;
(3) holder took snap and lobbed ball into air- a backward pass;
(4) kicker batted backward pass toward end zone;
(5) lone UNH player felt it was a lousy kick;
(6) Maine TE knew that it wasn't;
(7) he scooped up ball and waded into end zone;
 ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (only 5-man crew then);
(8) our section all leaped up - some fell -alcohol may have been a contributing factor;
(9) our kicker missed the PAT - remember he was better at volleyball;
(10) final score = 6-0, Brice musket stays in Maine;
(11) frat house bars stayed open longer;
(12) homecoming queen- remember, this is college - and kicker/volleyball player could not be found.

This made  NFL Highlights the next day, it also made new rule proposals for both NCAA & NFHS shortly thereafter.

.....and now you really know the rest of the story... aWaRd

Fantastic.  I always like to know the "why" behind the rules so that we can understand the rules better.

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1248
  • FAN REACTION: +29/-44
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #173 on: March 22, 2019, 01:34:49 PM »
Hey Ralph, was there any discussion this year about allowing the passer to spike the ball from the shotgun formation?  What do you think that this adoption will EVER be made?

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3521
  • FAN REACTION: +276/-520
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #174 on: March 22, 2019, 02:40:26 PM »
Hey Ralph, was there any discussion this year about allowing the passer to spike the ball from the shotgun formation?  What do you think that this adoption will EVER be made?

Let's hope NOT.  Doing so would likely seriously reduce the timing clarity ("immediately") of the NFHS 7-5-2-e Exception