Author Topic: Keep our minds working...  (Read 5965 times)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2019, 10:47:41 AM »
Gonna play with your minds a bit.  These will keep you busy for a little while. 

You must read these statements thoroughly, and understand all of the related yard lines.
“Grounded” means some part of the player’s body other than hand(s) of foot (feet) are touching the ground. “Tackled” means the ball carrier is grounded by an opponent or his progress is stopped (ball is dead).
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4/10, A-40, 8:00 (1), running, A=0, B=7.
A11's legal punt is airborne when B99 makes a valid fair catch signal at the B-30, and is at the B-30 when:

a)   B99 completes the catch at the B-30.
b)   B99 completes the catch at the B-30 and is immediately tackled by A55.
c)   B80 completes the catch at the B-30.
d)   B80 completes the catch at the B-30 and is immediately tackled by A55.

e)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-32.
f)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-32, and is immediately tackled by A55.
g)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-28.
h)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 completes the catch at the B-28, and is immediately tackled by A55.
i)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-32.
j)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-32, and is immediately tackled by A55.
k)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-28.
l)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B80 completes the catch at the B-28, and is immediately tackled by A55.

m)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-32.
n)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then immediately tackled by A55 at the B-32.
o)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-28.
p)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B99 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then tackled by A55 at the B-28.
q)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-32
r)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then tackled by A55 at the B-32.
s)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball at the B-28
t)   B99 muffs the ball that deflects directly to the ground where B80 reaches down and grasps and firmly holds the ball, and is then tackled by A55 at the B-28.
u)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
v)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
w)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.
x)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 muffs the ball at the B-32, which falls directly to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.

y)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
z)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where A55 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.
aa)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-30, while grounded.
bb)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  The ball falls to the ground where B99 recovers the ball at the B-28, while grounded.

cc)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32.  However, B-99 completes the catch at the B-31.
dd)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-29.  However, B-99 completes the catch at the B-28.
ee)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-32, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  B-80 completes the catch at the B-31.
ff)   B99 muffs the ball upward into the air.  B99 is moving to attempt to complete the catch, and is within reach of the airborne ball when A55 contacts B99 at the B-29, preventing B99 from reaching the ball.  B-80 completes the catch at the B-28.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 08:17:11 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2019, 09:33:20 AM »
First of all, thank you for not making this be a free kick inside the B-25... phew. Second of all, correct me if I'm wrong and I'll edit this post to cross out anything incorrect. EDIT: I'm already wrong, see below

The main principles:
- It's not a true fair catch unless the catcher is also a valid fair catch signaler. (I like the phrase "true fair catch" to distinguish from all the other times we shut the play down following a signal of any kind)
- A valid fair catch SIGNALER gets protection after a muff.
- A true fair catch CATCHER gets protection after the ball becomes dead.
- Nobody gets protection after the kick hits the ground.
- The succeeding spot after a true fair catch is where the catcher first touched it (or B-25 on deep free kicks).
- EDIT: The succeeding spot after any B catch is where a valid fair catch signaler first touched it (or B-25 on deep free kicks).
- Live-ball KCI is enforced from the spot of the foul (B-25 on deep free kicks; B-20 in the end zone on a scrimmage kick). Dead-ball KCI (which only happens after a true fair catch) is enforced from the succeeding spot.

a) B's @ B-30.
b) B's @ B-45. DB KCI (rule 6-5).
c) B's @ B-30.
d) B's @ B-30. No KCI for non-signaler.
e) B's @ B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC (valid fair catch) signaler.
f) B's @ B-45. DB KCI (rule 6-5). Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler. Enforce from succeeding spot.
g) B's @ B-30.
h) B's @ B-45.
i) B's @ B-32 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler.
j) B's @ B-32 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler. No KCI for non-signaler.
k) B's @ B-28 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler.
l) B's @ B-28 B-30. Return to spot of touching by VFC signaler. No KCI for non-signaler.
m) B's @ B-32.
n) B's @ B-32. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
o) B's @ B-28.
p) B's @ B-28. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
q) B's @ B-32.
r) B's @ B-32. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
s) B's @ B-28.
t) B's @ B-28. No KCI after kick hits the ground.
u, v, w, x) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag. Note below
y, z, aa, bb) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
cc, dd, ee, ff) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
cc) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
dd) B's @ B-44. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
ee) B's @ B-47. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.
ff) B's @ B-44. Live-ball KCI (rule 6-4 with extension for VFC signaler). Enforce from the flag.

Note: When VFC signaler B99 is within reach of the muffed airborne kick, and A55 muffs it, I'm interpreting this as A55 interfering with the unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 01:39:20 PM by Morningrise »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2019, 10:51:20 AM »
Morningrise,

I believe all of your "result" answers are correct, EXCEPT for "dd" and "ff".  Look at those again, and see if you used the correct spot of the foul.

Also, it may not be a bad way to look at things personally, but using the expression "dead-ball KCI" is probably not the way to express things, since that can't happen.  KCI can only happen while the ball is alive.  Blocking or tackling a player that has completed a fair catch is just that - tackling or blocking a player that has completed a fair catch.  Yes, it is dead-ball. But it isn't "interference."  That's how the announcement should go: "Personal Foul, Number 55, kicking team - tackling a player that has completed a fair catch.  That's a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul.  First down, West Central."

Robert

PS  Next, we'll throw in invalid signals....

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2019, 01:37:34 PM »
Also, it may not be a bad way to look at things personally, but using the expression "dead-ball KCI" is probably not the way to express things, since that can't happen.  KCI can only happen while the ball is alive.  Blocking or tackling a player that has completed a fair catch is just that - tackling or blocking a player that has completed a fair catch.  Yes, it is dead-ball. But it isn't "interference."  That's how the announcement should go: "Personal Foul, Number 55, kicking team - tackling a player that has completed a fair catch.  That's a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul.  First down, West Central."

Ah yes, now I see, contact after a fair catch violates 6-5-5 and the signals are S7-S38 (dead ball, PF) - whereas contact before a catch violates 6-4-1 and the signal is S33 (PI/KCI), not S38.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2019, 01:40:17 PM »
I believe all of your "result" answers are correct, EXCEPT for "dd" and "ff".  Look at those again, and see if you used the correct spot of the foul.

Noted and modified.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2019, 03:23:34 PM »
Ah yes, now I see, contact after a fair catch violates 6-5-5 and the signals are S7-S38 (dead ball, PF) - whereas contact before a catch violates 6-4-1 and the signal is S33 (PI/KCI), not S38.

And the announcement should have started with, "After the down, personal foul..."

Robert

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2019, 08:14:55 AM »
An easy one...

4/10, B-15, second possession of the second extra period, A=20, B=23.  In an apparent field goal formation (legal scrimmage kick formation), all 11 Team A players are set and motionless for over two seconds.   Back A99 is positioned approximately three yards behind the neutral zone, and behind the left offensive tackle.  Realizing he needs to be in a wingback position, A99 begins to move at angle toward the wingback position (no false start).  He has moved forward about 2 yards, nearing his intended final position, but is still moving forward when the ball is snapped.
A11's field goal attempt is blocked, and lands at the B-10.  B80 recovers the ball while on his feet, and begins to advance.  B80 is at  the B-15 when B77 blocks A66 below the waist at the B-18.  B-15 advances the ball across team A's goal line.

Ruling:

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2019, 03:07:38 PM »
Because A99 is moving forward at the snap we have a foul for illegal motion. Team B then gains possession. Team B then illegally blocks below the waist (after a COP as well as on a kick down). Because Team B gained possession before fouling, these fouls cancel, the down is not replayed, and the series is over. The apparent score by B80 is also canceled. The game is over with a final score of Team B winning 23-20.

This is one of those times that R’s need to be very careful with the wording of their announcement. These fouls cancel. They don’t offset. If you say offset, people are going to be wondering why we’re not replaying the down.

Next play: same play but in regulation.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2019, 03:49:24 PM »
This is one of those times that R’s need to be very careful with the wording of their announcement. These fouls cancel. They don’t offset. If you say offset, people are going to be wondering why we’re not replaying the down.

Yes.  I think the announcement would be something like:

"There were fouls by both team during the down.  Before the kick, illegal motion, number 99, kicking team.  During the return, illegal block below the waist, number 77, return team.  By rule, the penalties for these fouls are canceled, there is no score, and the down is not repeated.  Therefore, the game is over."

Then run like shells (read between the "s"s).   :)

Robert

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2019, 03:53:24 PM »
Next play: same play but in regulation.

Another easy one, but a good reminder.  I'll clean my hands of this one and let someone else answer.  (See what I did there?) ;D

Robert

Online Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #110 on: May 03, 2019, 12:09:45 AM »
Another easy one, but a good reminder.  I'll clean my hands of this one and let someone else answer.  (See what I did there?) ;D

Ha :)

Team B has a choice. They can (but will not) take offsetting penalties and repeat the down. Or, as they did not foul before last gaining team possession, they can decline all team A fouls and keep the ball after enforcement of their penalty. Team B 1/10 B-9. (Theoretically team A then has the option to decline the team B penalty, but they will not, unless game time is a factor)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #111 on: May 03, 2019, 05:25:20 AM »
Ha :)

Team B has a choice. They can (but will not) take offsetting penalties and repeat the down. Or, as they did not foul before last gaining team possession, they can decline all team A fouls and keep the ball after enforcement COMPLETION of their penalty. Team B 1/10 B-9. (Theoretically team A then has the option to decline the team B penalty, but they will not, unless game time is a factor)

Correct (that was easy).  But, we should avoid using the word ‘enforced’ or ‘enforcement’ when talking about B’s penalty.  The correct word is Completed or Completion, which includes, as you state, the possibility that a Team A could decline the penalty for Team B’s foul.

And, for those that might not know, this is known as the “clean hands” exception.  If Team B did not commit a foul BEFORE gaining possession of the ball, i.e., then their ‘hands were clean’ prior to gaining possession. 

Robert

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2019, 12:33:56 PM »
By the way, the "clean hands" principle is apparent during tries and EPs as well.

Team A and Team B both foul during a try down or an EP down in which Team B gains possession. Do we offset and replay the down? Or do we cancel and NOT replay the down? The way I remember it is, it depends on whether B gained possession with clean hands or not. If they did, the try or EP series is over. If they didn't, we're replaying the down.

In the case of multiple COPs, though, there's an obscure difference:

- On a normal down, the last team to gain possession enjoys "clean hands," and can choose to prevent a replay, only if that team was foul-free before the last COP.

- On tries and EPs, Team B enjoys "clean hands," and the rules prevent a replay, as long as that team was foul-free before the first COP.

You'll probably go your whole career without encountering an A-B-A-B situation on a try where A and B both foul and B's foul was between the first and the third COP, but if you do, remember your buddy Morningrise


Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2019, 02:55:45 PM »
Should be a layup:

4th and 10 from the 50. Team A's punt is caught by B11 at the B-20. B11 fumbles the ball at the B-30. Teammate B99 recovers the fumble at the B-35 and is tackled at the B-40. Prior to the kick, A80 blocked an opponent below the waist. Ruling?

Offline dvasques

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #114 on: May 10, 2019, 12:53:32 AM »
B's option to have 15 yards from previous spot (which they probably won't) or from B-40, which is the dead ball spot. B 1/10 @ A-45

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #115 on: May 10, 2019, 08:22:18 AM »
B's option to have 15 yards from previous spot (which they probably won't) or from B-40, which is the dead ball spot. B 1/10 @ A-45

Totally concur.

This is a situation in which there is a chance Team B might want to repeat the down, if Team A got an enormous kick, and Team B might feel like they can improve on their field position by forcing another punt, on the odds of Team A not getting as good of a punt, again. 
Before we had this current "tack on" rule, Pat Hill at Fresno State (years ago) accepted a penalty at the previous spot, rather than decline the penalty, which would have put them at their own 15 yard line or so.  Seemed like reasonable decision.  On the repeat of the down, they got tackled at the B-10.  Ah, the best laid plans... 

Robert

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #116 on: May 10, 2019, 10:26:58 AM »
Slight wrinkle. Same ruling?

4th and 10 from the 50. Team A's punt is caught by B11 at the B-20. During B11’s run, A80 grasps and twists B11’s face mask causing B11 to fumble the ball at the B-30. Teammate B99 recovers the fumble at the B-35 and is tackled at the B-40.


Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #117 on: May 10, 2019, 11:04:46 AM »
Slight wrinkle. Same ruling?

4th and 10 from the 50. Team A's punt is caught by B11 at the B-20. During B11’s run, A80 grasps and twists B11’s face mask causing B11 to fumble the ball at the B-30. Teammate B99 recovers the fumble at the B-35 and is tackled at the B-40.

Good one.
First, the pure result of the play is B, 1/10, B-40, PC=25, GC=snap (if B were to decline the penalty).
This foul is not during the kick play, but is during the running play after the end of the kick.  Thus, this is a true Basic Spot / 3 & 1 enforcement.  The foul occurred during B11's run, so the Basic Spot for this foul is the end of B11's run, which is the B-30.  The foul is by the opponent of the team in possession, so the 15-yard penalty is enforced at the Basic Spot, yielding B, 1/10, B-45, PC=25, BC=snap.  Acceptance of the penalty is more advantageous than the pure result of the play, so B will accept the penalty.

(Note:  The "fourth down fumble" rule does not apply after a change of team possession during the down.)

Robert

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2019, 09:36:28 AM »
First and 10 at the A-10. From the A-8, A11 throws a backward screen pass to the split end, but B33 swats it out of the air at the A-7. The ball bounces at the A-3 and enters A's end zone, where A77 falls on it. Ruling?

Offline dvasques

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2019, 10:00:24 AM »
Safety. A's backward pass put the ball in the end zone (the bat doesn't add new impetus unless the ball had touched the ground before).

FK A @ A-20. GC on legal touch inbounds. PC 25

Online Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2019, 03:59:05 PM »
Also, the non-passing team may legally bat the backward pass forward, so the bat is legal.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2019, 04:39:12 PM »
I will disagree with your answer. There is a question over who has team possession at the end of the down. I say it's team B because they were the last team in possession during the down. Absent any fouls A would put the ball in play on the next down, but I don't believe that applies. For the sake of discussion, let's go with team B in possession. Since they obtained the ball with clean hands they can decline A's foul if they want. They wouldn't do that though because then A would decline B's foul and take the result of the play: touchback 1st and 10 at the A-20. Better field position and a first down. B's other choice would be to accept A's penalty which results in a replay of the down, 3rd and 9 at the A-14. B would choose that option every time.

If you feel A is in team possession at the end of the down, they don't have any options because they fouled  before gaining possession. It's a double foul replay the down at the previous spot. 3rd and 9 at the A-14.

In this case it doesn't matter, but if it was 3rd and goal at the B-8 and this happened, B would likely decline the penalty and move A back to their own 20 even if it's a first down.

Magician,
I'm certain that, for the purposes of penalty enforcement, Team B was, indeed, last in team possession.  Redding has consistently indicated that a touchback is not a change of team possession DURING THE DOWN, and that is the key here.  So, yes, Team B could opt for the "clean hands" exception, but, as you say, Team A would then, just decline the penalty for B's foul, and take the pure result of the play (touchback, A, 1/10, A-20).  So, B will most likely take offsetting fouls and a repeat of the down at the previous spot.

Robert


Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2019, 06:42:42 PM »
Since thread got bumped, I figured I'd make sure we all saw the editorial change that affects some of the discussion a few pages back.

A "striding" ball carrier crossing the sideline is now the same as an airborne ball carrier. The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. As discussed by Bossman and Elvis back on page 3, this was already the interpretation supes wanted, but a direct reading of the rule book would not lead to this understanding. Now it does.

Online bossman72

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2019, 08:08:13 AM »
Since thread got bumped, I figured I'd make sure we all saw the editorial change that affects some of the discussion a few pages back.

A "striding" ball carrier crossing the sideline is now the same as an airborne ball carrier. The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. As discussed by Bossman and Elvis back on page 3, this was already the interpretation supes wanted, but a direct reading of the rule book would not lead to this understanding. Now it does.

I was very happy to see that!  Shaw must have been reading :)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2019, 02:05:21 PM »
Since thread got bumped, I figured I'd make sure we all saw the editorial change that affects some of the discussion a few pages back.

A "striding" ball carrier crossing the sideline is now the same as an airborne ball carrier. The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. As discussed by Bossman and Elvis back on page 3, this was already the interpretation supes wanted, but a direct reading of the rule book would not lead to this understanding. Now it does.

I swear that this appeared in a bulletin sometime in the past two seasons, but, for the life of me, I can't find it.  Anybody?  Bueller?  Bueller....