Author Topic: Legal batting to teammate?  (Read 4269 times)

Offline bbeagle

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Legal batting to teammate?
« on: October 16, 2013, 08:28:18 AM »
K1 punts from the 50. R1 in trying to catch the punt, muffs it at the R20. K2 and R1 are going after the loose ball (which since the touching by R1 can be recovered by either team)...

While both players are trying for the loose ball at the R15, K2 intentionally bats the ball to his teammate at the R17. K3 recovers at the R17.

It seems to me that this is the ONE time that you can intentionally bat a ball to your teammate and it's legal?


Offline maven

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 08:40:14 AM »
A couple things:

"the loose ball (which since the touching by R1 can be recovered by either team)"

K can always recover a scrimmage kick (as long as they don't interfere). Perhaps you mean recover the kick and receive a new series?

The rule prohibiting batting does not prohibit batting TO anyone. The exception in 9-7-2 permitting K to bat a grounded scrimmage kick beyond the NZ limits the direction of the batting to "toward his own GL."

So the idea that batting TO someone is what makes batting illegal is mistaken.

Finally, any player may bat a fumble or pass in flight, including batting it TO a teammate. So this is not the only legal batting.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline TNofficial

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 09:40:15 AM »
So my understanding is that because this is still a scrimmage kick (2-25-2), K may bat the ball towards his own teammate so long as he bats it in the direction of his own goal line. (9-7-2).  R however would not be allowed to bat the ball in any direction because the do not fall into the exception in 9-7-2.  It doesn't seem to be exactly fair but I can't find an exception to a grounded kick that has been touched by R.

Offline maven

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 09:53:38 AM »
So my understanding is that because this is still a scrimmage kick (2-25-2), K may bat the ball towards his own teammate so long as he bats it in the direction of his own goal line. (9-7-2).  R however would not be allowed to bat the ball in any direction because the do not fall into the exception in 9-7-2.  It doesn't seem to be exactly fair but I can't find an exception to a grounded kick that has been touched by R.

That's right. The purpose of the exception is to permit K to bat a scrimmage kick (punt) to keep it in the field of play when the kick is approaching the GL. That's a play that we want in the game.

As far as the fairness, remember that K is giving up field position when they bat the kick toward their own GL. Batting a kick to a teammate is not much of an advantage, since the ball is dead if he possesses it, and it's a spot of first touching if he touches it but doesn't possess it.

And what would be the comparable play for R that you'd create an exception to allow?
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 10:35:02 AM »

Finally, any player may bat a fumble or pass in flight, including batting it TO a teammate. So this is not the only legal batting.

Maybe I am reading this incorrectly, but here is an illegal batting situation

A is in punt formation and the ball is snapped to A1, who turns his back to the line of scrimmage and throws a backward pass into the air. A2 comes forward and bats the ball 20 yards downfield where:

(a) A3 recovers it 5 yards beyond the line to gain; or
(b) it is caught by A4 who advances for an additional 5 yards; or
(c) it goes out of bounds in advance of the line to gain; or
(d) B1 intercepts and returns it for an apparent touchdown.

RULING: In (a), (b), (c) and (d), the batting by A2 is illegal. In (a), (b) and (c), it will be B's advantage to accept the penalty of 15 yards which will be administered from the spot of the foul because the batting occurred during the loose-ball play and behind the basic spot. In (d), because the foul was during a loose-ball play, before a change of possession, B may keep the touchdown by declining the penalty for A's foul. Otherwise, the penalty will be enforced from the spot of the foul and A will retain possession of the ball if B accepts the penalty. (10-5-3)
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline maven

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 10:38:38 AM »
Yeah, sorry, forgot to mention the exception to batting a pass: the passing team may not bat a backward pass forward. 9-7-3

Otherwise, batting a pass is legal.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 10:40:56 AM »
A is in punt formation and the ball is snapped to A1, who turns his back to the line of scrimmage and throws a backward pass into the air. A2 comes forward and bats the ball 20 yards downfield where:
What game are you playing?  Doesn't sound like football!  ;D

Offline TNofficial

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 10:46:52 AM »
That's right. The purpose of the exception is to permit K to bat a scrimmage kick (punt) to keep it in the field of play when the kick is approaching the GL. That's a play that we want in the game.

As far as the fairness, remember that K is giving up field position when they bat the kick toward their own GL. Batting a kick to a teammate is not much of an advantage, since the ball is dead if he possesses it, and it's a spot of first touching if he touches it but doesn't possess it.

And what would be the comparable play for R that you'd create an exception to allow?

I think there is only a fairness issue in the situation presented by the original post where R has muffed the punt thus allowing K to recover the ball for a new series.  It seems that K2 bats the ball to ensure that R1 cannot recover the ball thus ensuring that K2's teammate would be able to more easily recover the ball.  The fairness issue as I see it would only be in this particular situation since R1 would not be allowed to bat the ball to a teammate who would be able to more easily recover the ball.

I would solely adjust the rule to not allow K to bat a ball that has been touched by R or maybe that exception to the exception does exist and I am not seeing it.

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 11:34:33 AM »
A2 comes forward and bats the ball 20 yards downfield where:

 

Batting a pass for 20 yards. His hand is going to be sore in the morning.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 01:02:35 PM »
An occurance often is the orign for a rule change and I was there (not at the meeting but at the game) for the birth of ole' 9-7-3. Situation : U-Maine Homecoming vs New Hampshire in mid- 70's (I was a "homecomer" not a zebra). Game was a scoreless mud bowl going into 4th period, Maine's ball @ UNH 20, 4th down & something WHEN : (1) From field goal formation, the snap went to the holder who tossed the ball up in the air; (2) Hans, the kicker who was also an excellent volleyball player, batted the ball toward UNH's goal line; (3) the lone UNH deep man watch the ball rolling @ the 5 and probably thought, "what a lousey kick"; (4) Tugboat, the tight end, knew better - scooped up the ball -lumbered into the endzone and ^good; (5) the band played, the cheerleaders pranced, the frat boys poped their kegs, and Tugboat got a date with the Homecoming Queen; (6) the NCAA, quickly followed by NFHS  passed rules outlawing such tomfoolery nAnA. Maine won the game, the beer was cold and now (as Paul Harvey used to say) you know the rest of the story......
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 01:06:36 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 01:09:10 PM »
As far as the fairness, remember that K is giving up field position when they bat the kick toward their own GL. Batting a kick to a teammate is not much of an advantage, since the ball is dead if he possesses it, and it's a spot of first touching if he touches it but doesn't possess it.

There is a HUGE advantage in batting a kick to a teammate after it has been touched by R. If the ball is recovered by K, then it is K's ball. There is no first-touching after the ball has touched R.


Offline bbeagle

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 04:58:18 PM »
The fairness issue as I see it would only be in this particular situation since R1 would not be allowed to bat the ball to a teammate who would be able to more easily recover the ball.

Good thoughts, TNofficial. I really didn't think of that.

I guess we can have this situation. R1 muffs punt, K1 bats the ball backwards, legal. R2 bats the ball backwards, flag. K2 bats the ball backwards, legal. R3 bats the ball backwards, flag.

Now try explaining to the coach of Team R why HIS team can't bat the ball but the OTHER team can!  ;D


Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Legal batting to teammate?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 08:41:26 AM »
Some of you have been watching to much volleyball.   ;D