Author Topic: :25 play clock  (Read 12442 times)

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 422
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-28
:25 play clock
« on: November 12, 2013, 07:55:37 AM »
Sectional Playoff game.

Team A has the ball 1st and 10. They just got a first down - clock stopped at 00:25. When the chains are set the Referee signals ready for play, the clock starts.

Must Team A hike the ball? The head referee says that Team A MUST hike the ball, because at :25 there is a delay of game penalty (not LONGER than :25, but EXACTLY AT :25, there is a delay of game penalty). He wanted to do the game 'by the book' as this was a playoff game.

I'm wondering why does this matter?  When the clock hits :00 the game is over. Even if you throw your flag at :00 for delay of game - you can't enforce the penalty, because this isn't a live ball foul, correct?

I can barely even understand 25.1 seconds, but that makes sense, but not 25 seconds exactly.


Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 08:00:28 AM »
Unless you have tenths on your clock, if the clock says there is :25 left, then you actually have somewhere between 24.01 and 25.0, meaning there is exactly 25 seconds OR LESS remaining.  So no, team A should not have to snap the ball.

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +327/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 08:01:20 AM »
Why is your R looking for trouble?  :!#
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 422
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-28
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 08:09:12 AM »
Why is your R looking for trouble?  :!#

Trouble got him too...

The ball was hiked at like :10, and a defensive player hit the QB with a cheap shot. Which would not have happened if the ball was not put into play. Luckily the rest of Team A and B players didn't get heated, and the game ended with just that.



Offline maven

  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-0
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 09:09:40 AM »
The head referee says that Team A MUST hike the ball, because at :25 there is a delay of game penalty (not LONGER than :25, but EXACTLY AT :25, there is a delay of game penalty). He wanted to do the game 'by the book' as this was a playoff game.

Which one is the "head" referee? ;)

In any case, he's wrong. It's DOG when A fails "to snap or free kick within 25 seconds after the ball is marked ready for play." The 25th second is "within 25 seconds."

If the clock reads 25 seconds, A does not need to snap the ball.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-44
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 09:11:12 AM »
Unless you have tenths on your clock, if the clock says there is :25 left, then you actually have somewhere between 24.01 and 25.0, meaning there is exactly 25 seconds OR LESS remaining.  So no, team A should not have to snap the ball.

Tenths of a second should be banned from football timing - they can only cause us trouble.  Trouble is ADs spend a lot of money on these expensive boards for track purposes and want to get their money's worth.

Trouble got him too...

The ball was hiked at like :10, and a defensive player hit the QB with a cheap shot. Which would not have happened if the ball was not put into play. Luckily the rest of Team A and B players didn't get heated, and the game ended with just that.
^good

I rest my case...

Offline TampaSteve

  • *
  • Posts: 1299
  • FAN REACTION: +15/-10
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 09:15:00 AM »
Good topic to support the following: clock operators, disable the tenths of a second display on your clocks..

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-44
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 09:19:53 AM »
Good topic to support the following: clock operators, disable the tenths of a second display on your clocks..

We've tried; and most often the response is "the AD won't let me turn that functionality off".  Absent specific rule support, we're truly at the schools' mercy....

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 2226
  • FAN REACTION: +65/-13
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 09:54:13 AM »
Quote
Good topic to support the following: clock operators, disable the tenths of a second display on your clocks..

Short of the instruction manual lying on the counter next to the control panel, how would anyone know how?

When I've been assigned as an ECO in the playoffs, all I do is show up and mash the remote switch on or off.  The "civilian" handles everything else.

Its the easiest $70 in football ::) :)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 10:06:18 AM by HLinNC »

Offline RMR

  • *
  • Posts: 490
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-5
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 10:03:51 AM »
Along those same lines, how many of you have schools that have horns on their clocks still?
"Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong."

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +327/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 11:15:34 AM »
Along those same lines, how many of you have schools that have horns on their clocks still?
...which should also be banned (by rule).
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2254
  • FAN REACTION: +70/-25
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2013, 12:15:41 PM »
Its the easiest $70 in football when done correctly.

I had to have the clock reset on three consecutive plays at the end of my playoff game last Friday.  The Visitors scored on the last play, but didn't convert the two-point try.

Fortunately for my ECO, he drove his own car to the game.    hEaDbAnG   hEaDbAnG

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2602
  • FAN REACTION: +320/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2013, 01:02:10 PM »
I'm a ECO for a D-111 NCAA school and have always been able to shut the "auto horn" off, but the tenth of a second doesn't give me a choice. Few years ago near the end of the first half, the visitors were driving away from the scoreboard, when : (1) ball hits ground on an incomplete pass; ^no (2) I stop clock ; (3) Home coach looks at the press box (me) and begins to waive his fist >:(; (4) the field officials give me a  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? look; (5) I look at clock and it reads 0 : 00.3 :!# ::) ; (6) The next play is also an incomplete pass :bOW. I was watching the play and not the clock but received much nAnA heat - the ECO is trying to do his job by watching the officials and the play, not the clock - give him some slack. :)

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 06:32:45 PM »
Even if we turn off the tenths, they still kick in for the last minute (a la basketball).

And while the horn could be shut off, no one has ever asked us to do it.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3382
  • FAN REACTION: +258/-493
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 07:01:39 PM »
Short of the instruction manual lying on the counter next to the control panel, how would anyone know how?  When I've been assigned as an ECO in the playoffs, all I do is show up and mash the remote switch on or off.  The "civilian" handles everything else.  Its the easiest $70 in football ::) :)

Correctly operating the game clock should be a relatively smooth process, provided;

* The "Civilian" running the scoreboard knows what he's doing,   or,

* The view is unobstructed by fans standing on seats directly in front of you, with or without                 umbrellas, or,

* A small booth with "pressbox coaches" from one, or sometimes both teams, asking stupid questions or making "questionable" comments about every call that doesn't go their way, or

* An announcer, 5 feet away, who thinks ESPN is secretly auditioning him, or,

* Stadium lights that are too old, too low or just too weak, or,

* Game officials along either sideline that are far harder to pick up in front of the team area (I understand white knickers are gone forever, but with all the benefits of our black trousers, the fact is they make game officials a lot harder to find on the field.  That could be improved, considerably, by migrating NFHS shirts to the wider white stripes used at the NCAA level), or

* Game officials who sometimes forget to give clear, difinitive signals repeated enough so that someone who may for good reason be focused elsewhere, might see and pick up the signal, or

* Umpires and Referees who sometimes forget to consistently pick up and repeat signals given by wing officials in front of the team areas, who may be obstructed, or lost, behind (or in front of) 40, or more players & coaches, cheerleaders, band personnel and photographers and other "special people" allowed on sidelines. or

* A Referee who is willing to advise an exciteable coach that a TO begins when the official HE told he wants one acknowledges he heard it and signals, rather than when he decided he might want a TO and then goes to find his wing official to tell about it.

When things go as expected, with no major surprises or problems, operating the game clock can be a very enjoyable, and rewarding,  experience.

Soccerisfootball

  • Guest
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2013, 07:16:33 PM »
Unless it shows tenths of a second there is no delay if time expires.

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 261
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-16
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2013, 02:16:48 PM »
Interesting discussion while we're on the topic.

My association secretary has told me that the GHSA interpretation is that if the game clocked is stopped with less than one second (0.1 - 0.9) when tenths are on the clock, the period is over.

I always tell my game clock operator to turn tenths off. Most schools around here use Electromech. There's always been a way to turn them off so far.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2013, 07:56:45 PM »
Interesting discussion while we're on the topic.

My association secretary has told me that the GHSA interpretation is that if the game clocked is stopped with less than one second (0.1 - 0.9) when tenths are on the clock, the period is over.

I always tell my game clock operator to turn tenths off. Most schools around here use Electromech. There's always been a way to turn them off so far.
There is no such GHSA interpretation.  Turning the tenths off is an excellent idea, but if you do, if there are between .1 and .9 seconds left, them the clock will show :01, not :00.  That's why there is no such interpretation as the period being over with less than one second showing.

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 261
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-16
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2013, 12:41:00 PM »
There is no such GHSA interpretation.  Turning the tenths off is an excellent idea, but if you do, if there are between .1 and .9 seconds left, them the clock will show :01, not :00.  That's why there is no such interpretation as the period being over with less than one second showing.

My association secretary said that Mr. Payne said that if 0.1 - 0.9 are on the clock, the period is over. I'm not saying I agree with the interpretation or have first hand knowledge of such an interpretation. I'm just relaying what was told to me. Yet another reason why tenths should be removed from the scoreboard - to remove all doubt.

I've heard/read different things on clock mechanics. I run the shot clock here for the college I work at and there was an article in Referee Magazine that caught my interest. The article said the "brain" of the shot clock is actually set to 35.99 not :35. The reason being is that otherwise, when the shot clock was at 0.1 - 0.9 the clock would actually just show a 0. So they set shot clocks to 35.99 to get around that.

So what does that mean for the clock mechanics. If the "brain" is set to 0.9 is the clock going to show :00 or :01? Sort of an important question. I spoke with an Electromech guy once that was installing the equipment at my school and he didn't know.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2013, 10:22:58 PM »
My association secretary said that Mr. Payne said that if 0.1 - 0.9 are on the clock, the period is over. I'm not saying I agree with the interpretation or have first hand knowledge of such an interpretation. I'm just relaying what was told to me. Yet another reason why tenths should be removed from the scoreboard - to remove all doubt.[\quote]

I will have dinner with Dennis on Thursday.  I will ask him if he ever said any such thing.  I can assure you it is not in writing in any GHSA document.

Quote
I've heard/read different things on clock mechanics. I run the shot clock here for the college I work at and there was an article in Referee Magazine that caught my interest. The article said the "brain" of the shot clock is actually set to 35.99 not :35. The reason being is that otherwise, when the shot clock was at 0.1 - 0.9 the clock would actually just show a 0. So they set shot clocks to 35.99 to get around that.

So what does that mean for the clock mechanics. If the "brain" is set to 0.9 is the clock going to show :00 or :01? Sort of an important question. I spoke with an Electromech guy once that was installing the equipment at my school and he didn't know.

I don't see how that can be true.  I used to keep the shot clock at Ga Tech.  Watch the shot clock when you reset it.  It doesn't take it a full second (or .99 seconds) to click to :34, it does it instantly.

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 261
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-16
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2013, 09:20:29 AM »
We've had this discussion before, AB. There are plenty of GHSA "interps" that aren't in writing anywhere. They're passed on from generation to generation, so to speak. The three point stance vs. two point stance low block in the shotgun, for instance. It's not in writing anywhere, but there it sits on the rules test every year.

At first when I was told that I thought maybe our secretary was either just making it up or having a "SENIOR MOMENT", but it's been re-told to me by multiple higher ranking officials who all have a good relationship with DP. So I've grown to believe it until I'm told otherwise.

On the shot clock - I've looked and it appears to me that there is a delay on the shot clock before it drops down to 34 here at my school. I'll have to see if I can find that old copy of Referee Magazine. It was probably 3-4 years ago.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2013, 09:39:16 AM »
We've had this discussion before, AB. There are plenty of GHSA "interps" that aren't in writing anywhere. They're passed on from generation to generation, so to speak. The three point stance vs. two point stance low block in the shotgun, for instance. It's not in writing anywhere, but there it sits on the rules test every year.

I agree, many are not in writing.  The 2 pt vs 3 pt shotgun block was in writing at one point, with diagrams, in a presentation at the mechanics clinics.  But there are many others that are not, and that's the problem.  If they aren't in wrinting and distributed to both coaches and officials, are they really interpretations?

Quote
On the shot clock - I've looked and it appears to me that there is a delay on the shot clock before it drops down to 34 here at my school. I'll have to see if I can find that old copy of Referee Magazine. It was probably 3-4 years ago.

If it was Referee Ragazine, there's only a 50/50 chance they were right anyway!   ;D

Offline J12

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2013, 10:21:42 AM »
         My understanding of clock mechanics is that when a clock shows :01 (for example) there is AT LEAST a full second left and there can be as much as :01.9 seconds left. So, the instant that a clock hits :00 there are actually :00.9 seconds left. It's more noticeable in the gym, but when a clock first hits :00, the buzzer does NOT go off because there are actually :00.9 seconds left. The buzzer doesn't go off until almost a full second later at :00.0 or actually :00.0000000000000000!

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3382
  • FAN REACTION: +258/-493
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2013, 10:26:09 AM »
Not to seem anti-technical, or imprecise, but as relates to Interscholastic athletics, does the gnat's eyelash of precision really matter, as long as the details apply to both teams consistently?  Any "25 second clock" is an updated version of NF: 2-35, specifying a 25 second RFP limit.  For countless decades, before the technology of a visible countdown clock reached down to the HS level, that rule was managed on the field, by designated game officials.

I doubt any fair minded, honest official would argue that the actual duration of 25 seconds was somewhat variable, from official to official, game to game, region to region and for all these dacades was, at the very worst, a minor, infrequent problem.  Precision is usually a beneficial factor, but not necessarily ALWAYS, and whether every game official keeping the 25 second count on the field, is absolutely accurate in determining 25 seconds, no more, no less or the electronic 25 second clock is accurate to the 10th of a second, likely is never going to become anything more than a minor, infrequent problem, as long as whatever inconsistenties or inaccuracies present are applied equally to both sides.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2602
  • FAN REACTION: +320/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: :25 play clock
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2013, 10:59:24 AM »
Prior to the fancy gizmo's we now hook to our belts and prior to the back judge becoming vogue (4 man crews) this duty befell the white hat (abid there was an era of the white hat having black piping and bill). If he was facing the scoreboard (if a school had one) and good at math and the clock wasn't waiting for the snap to start, he would time the 25 seconds off the scoreboard. If any of the above was NO ::) , he would rely on his trusty Timex's second hand.  yEs:. Most would round his glance to the "next" 30 seconds - no one ever seemed to mind. yEs: yEs:. Some claimed they counted by "thousands" backward from 25 - I didn't really believe them ::). If there wasn't a scoreboard, the field judge (now line judge) kept the time on his stop watch. The rest of his crew would always remind him that he shoulda' started the clock on the snap by cranking our arms after the ball was snapped. yEs: yEs: yEs: : The FJ would then let us know he was awake by cranking his arm.  yEs:. This was later modified to only the FJ cranking to indicate he hadn't fallen asleep. yEs: Always remember no scoreboard = 4 minute warning and IF there is a horn BE SURE that it's shut off. tiphat: