Author Topic: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...  (Read 15575 times)


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2014, 09:46:10 AM »
Great job in finding / posting this, HL. aWaRd Much easier to read / research / understand than the press release. tiphat:

Offline Sumstine

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 12:14:58 PM »
Does anyone have the enforcement guidelines for the free kick rules. When do the restrictions begin and when do they become a foul?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2014, 07:33:58 AM »
Does anyone have the enforcement guidelines for the free kick rules. When do the restrictions begin and when do they become a foul?
The discussion at the rules meeting was that they would become dead ball fouls occuring after the WH's RFP whistle. IMHO, this would require the official handling K's line to remind them : "Remember guys, 4 on each side of the kicker & you gotta' be within 5 yards of the 40." This brings back memories of our warnings / reminders to R : " We need 5 guys between the 45 & 50". If the kick was made after the flag ^flag for these penalities, the play would be blown dead simular to a false start preceeding the snap during a scrimmage down. The last thing desired was to require the play to continue with a potential re-kick if the penalty was accepted.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 08:12:57 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 07:59:02 AM »
The discussion at the rules meeting was that they would become dead ball fouls occuring after the WH's RFP whistle. IMHO, this would require the official handling K's line to remind them : "Remember guys, 3 on each side of the kicker & you gotta' be within 5 yards of the 40." This brings back memories of our warnings / reminders to R : " We need 5 guys between the 45 & 50". If the kick was made after the flag ^flag for these penalities, the play would be blown dead simular to a false start preceeding the snap during a scrimmage down. The last thing desired was to require the play to continue with a potential re-kick if the penalty was accepted.
I'll argue the point after the RFP there is no foul until the ball is kicked.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2014, 08:11:58 AM »
The actual wordage will (I assume) be : "After the ball is marked ready for play, and until the ball is kicked, K must meet the following formation requirements......" While the Editorial Committee could tweak the wording , they couldn't / shouldn't change the timeframe of the occurring foul.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 08:16:24 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2014, 09:43:03 AM »
Quote
While the Editorial Committee could tweak the wording , they couldn't / shouldn't change the timeframe of the occurring foul.

I shudder for some reason :-\

I too was of the opinion it would be much like a foul at the snap, i.e. Illegal Motion, as it would be correctable up until the kick actually occurred.

Offline Johnponz

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2014, 11:00:36 AM »
I am not one to normally advocate adopting NCAA rules at the federation level.  However I believe a good one to adopt would be any foul by A (K) on a kicking down could be tacked onto the result of the play at B (R)'s option.

This would not require any exceptions which the Federation dislike, but would apply to every kicking down. 

This change would satisfy Ralph's concern that a re-kick would be required on all live ball fouls by K on free kick downs.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2014, 11:13:45 AM »
I am not one to normally advocate adopting NCAA rules at the federation level.  However I believe a good one to adopt would be any foul by A (K) on a kicking down could be tacked onto the result of the play at B (R)'s option.

This would not require any exceptions which the Federation dislike, but would apply to every kicking down. 

This change would satisfy Ralph's concern that a re-kick would be required on all live ball fouls by K on free kick downs.
The "tack-on" rule was proposed and did make it out of subcommittee but failed on the floor. INHO, the "muddling factor" (what confuses the undecided) was how it would be enforced if fee kick goes OOB untouched by R and there was another foul by K ??? ???.I was a proponent of this rule...at least 17 others were not pi1eOn

Offline VALJ

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2014, 12:33:55 PM »
I don't know about applying it to a free kick down, but I'd be all in favor of doing that on a scrimmage kick down.

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2014, 12:38:22 PM »
The actual wordage will (I assume) be : "After the ball is marked ready for play, and until the ball is kicked, K must meet the following formation requirements......" While the Editorial Committee could tweak the wording , they couldn't / shouldn't change the timeframe of the occurring foul.

It would make sense for the formation rule to be live ball (since it can be corrected up until the kick) and the 5 yard belt rule to be dead ball (since the act itself is what causes the foul... like a false start)

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2014, 01:00:38 PM »
It would make sense for the formation rule to be live ball (since it can be corrected up until the kick) and the 5 yard belt rule to be dead ball (since the act itself is what causes the foul... like a false start)
If memory serves me correctly, the old "5 R players within 5 yards of R's free kick line" rule was a live ball foul. Can't see any difference here.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2014, 07:35:31 AM »
The "tack-on" rule was proposed and did make it out of subcommittee but failed on the floor. INHO, the "muddling factor" (what confuses the undecided) was how it would be enforced if free kick goes OOB untouched by R and there was another foul by K ?

Treat it as any other multiple foul, with the dead ball spot being where it went OOB.

Offline Johnponz

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2014, 09:52:25 AM »
Treat it as any other multiple foul, with the dead ball spot being where it went OOB.

That is the correct answer and the tack on would apply to the spot where the ball went OOB as well.  B (R) would have its choice of which foul to enforce. 

It is pretty simple.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2014, 08:07:33 AM »
I agree that it would become a multiple foul with R's choices being : (1) re-kick from the 35; (2) take the ball @ 35 as this is accepting that penalty; (3) have the penalty tacked on to the OOB spot. Sometimes it only takes a wrinkle to lose support of some on the fence. While I supported the "tack on" rule, I was in favor of illegal formation by the kicking team being a dead ball foul. I feel it would be easier to call than waiting until the ball is kicked and deal with a potential re-kick and K players running crossing patterns which could become confusing to the officials. Happy Easter weekend, everyone and as an Easter trivia : How is the annual date  of Easter determined and why???
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 08:15:24 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 08:35:36 AM »
Easter is set as the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depends on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox. Easter is delayed by one week if the full moon is on Sunday, which decreases the chances of it falling on the same day as the Jewish Passover.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

younggun

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2014, 08:37:12 AM »
Easter is set as the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depends on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox. Easter is delayed by one week if the full moon is on Sunday, which decreases the chances of it falling on the same day as the Jewish Passover.

Could not have said it better myself.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2014, 11:08:14 AM »
Easter is set as the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depends on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox. Easter is delayed by one week if the full moon is on Sunday, which decreases the chances of it falling on the same day as the Jewish Passover.
True for the Western catholic churches (catholic being the broad "catholic", not the Roman Catholic Church, although that is part of the catholic churches).

For the Eastern catholic church's, which use a Julian calendar rather than the Gregorian calendar, the formula is the same, however the vernal equinox is different, as is the definition of the full moon.  This often pushes Easter in the Eastern churches later in the year than the Western churches.

This year, Easter is the same date in both the Eastern and Western churches.  Happy Easter to ALL my Christian friends, and I hope my Jewish friends enjoyed Passover this past week.

And I'm sorry Ralph, but the new kicking rule being a foul at all, and especially it being a dead ball foul may be the dumbest rule passed in years.  Any other "illegal formation" can be corrected up until the time the ball becomes live, and doesn't kill the play.  Why should this particular type of illegal formation be any different?   

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2014, 12:27:42 PM »
...but the new kicking rule being a ...dead ball foul may be the dumbest rule passed in years.  Any other "illegal formation" can be corrected up until the time the ball becomes live, and doesn't kill the play.  Why should this particular type of illegal formation be any different?
Agree, agree, agree!  yEs:
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Sumstine

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2014, 12:35:00 PM »
And I'm sorry Ralph, but the new kicking rule being a foul at all, and especially it being a dead ball foul may be the dumbest rule passed in years.

I agree completely. Missed the boat by trying to re-invent this one. The NCAA got it right, why can't the NFHS look at something that worked, use it and give credit where credit is due?

Offline prab

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2014, 12:40:26 PM »
Has kicking off with less than 4 K players on each side of the kicker been a common occurrence in other parts of the country?  I have only seen this once or twice, at any level, during the last several years.  Onside kick attempts that I have seen in the last few years have almost always had at least 4 K players on each side of the kicker.  On the other hand, having more than one K player initially lining up more than five yards behind the free kick line has been more common. 

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2014, 02:00:17 PM »
Has kicking off with less than 4 K players on each side of the kicker been a common occurrence in other parts of the country? 
The short answer is yes. More and more teams pooch kick, or try to drive it into the ground for a weird hop hopeing for the recovery. By overloading one side of the field, they try to gain the advantage of having more bodies available to recover the kick. In addition to creating an officiating nightmare, it has, in my opinion, become a safety issue. That part of it they got right. It's the dead-ball foul part they thoroughly screwed up.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline BBref

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2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2014, 07:20:22 PM »

If memory serves me correctly, the old "5 R players within 5 yards of R's free kick line" rule was a live ball foul. Can't see any difference here.
Memory is incorrect. Rule required 5 R players within 5yards of free-kick line entire time from RFP to the kick, same as new requirements for K.


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Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2014, 08:54:29 PM »
Memory is incorrect. Rule required 5 R players within 5yards of free-kick line entire time from RFP to the kick, same as new requirements for K.
I never that. You are comparing my apples to your oranges.

I'll restate it your way: Violation of the old rule requiring "5 R players within 5yards of free-kick line entire time from RFP to the kick" was a live ball foul, which is not the same as the new requirements for K.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2014, 07:40:45 AM »
I never that. You are comparing my apples to your oranges.

I'll restate it your way: Violation of the old rule requiring "5 R players within 5yards of free-kick line entire time from RFP to the kick" was a live ball foul, which is not the same as the new requirements for K.
Something doesn't make sense.  Example of the old rule: R lines up with 5 in the belt.  After the RFP, but before the kick, one of the players leaves the area.  He comes back into before the kick.  That was a LIVE ball foul?  The official waited until after the kick and then dropped the flag?  Or he dropped it at the time the player left the belt, but let the play go?  I don't know any foul where you drop the flag during the dead ball period, but let the play go on.