Author Topic: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...  (Read 15615 times)

Offline BBref

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2014, 09:07:34 AM »
I never that. You are comparing my apples to your oranges.

I'll restate it your way: Violation of the old rule requiring "5 R players within 5yards of free-kick line entire time from RFP to the kick" was a live ball foul, which is not the same as the new requirements for K.

You're not thinking the rule through. If a player left the 5-yard belt after the RFP, it was a dead-ball foul. So it is apples to apples.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2014, 01:36:32 PM »
You're right AB. Saying "the entire time" really doesn't make sense. No foul occurred until the ball was kicked. THAT was the live ball foul (if 5 weren't in the belt at the time of the kick).
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2014, 07:21:00 AM »
Rule 6-1-3 (1972 NFHS Rules) :"After the ball is ready -for-play and until it is kicked,each player, other than the kicker and the holder for a place kick, shall be behind his free-kick line AND AT LEAST 5 B PLAYERS MUST BE WITHIN 5 YARDS OF THEIR LINE". Seems that this ,too, was a dead ball foul. The rationale is our rule change being a DB foul is not only to prevent rekicks, but also to prevent a team from stunting players from one side of the kicker to the other in an attempt to confuse the opponents. Kickoffs are the most injury prone plays in our game and it is felt that anything we can do towards safety would be warrented. Hopefully it will not include removing kickoffs entirely as the NFL once mulled. Easter : Great job, Atlanta Blue, Rulesman and others tiphat: for coming up with the calculation.....but where / who did the calculation come from and what was the rationale??? :)

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2014, 08:13:47 AM »
I should have added.... Iowa has ran the free kick restrictions as  experimental rules for three years, first as a live ball foul, then dead at the kick and last year the dead ball version that finally passed. Minnesota and Kentucky also ran experiments on this and all reported that it worked smoothly. Without the "tack-on" capability, killing the play before the kick seemed the cleanest option.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2014, 09:17:11 AM »
Actually, it's reassuring to be reminded that the Rules Makers consider, and often bother to test, the practical application and outcome of alternate approaches as means to "best" deal with a particular matter, rather than allow themselves to be obligated to the strict adherence to established practices, that may work very well under DIFFERENT circumstances.

Stopping play, via a Dead Ball foul, before the subsequent, and inevitable collisions occur seems a far more practical approach to allowing the free-kicks to continue, and then choosing options.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2014, 09:46:36 AM »
Kickoffs are the most injury prone plays in our game
I have heard this repeated many times, and no one has ever produced any report that proves it to be true.

Quote
but also to prevent a team from stunting players from one side of the kicker to the other in an attempt to confuse the opponents.
We can "stunt" receivers in an offense, we stunt defensive lineman and linebackers all the time, the offense can even have players in motion at the snap as an added deception.  So why is it so important to prevent it during a kickoff?


Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2014, 10:00:03 AM »
The other consideration to calling this a DB foul is that it takes away a possible return by R.

Offline Curious

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2014, 12:25:38 PM »
I have heard this repeated many times, and no one has ever produced any report that proves it to be true.
We can "stunt" receivers in an offense, we stunt defensive lineman and linebackers all the time, the offense can even have players in motion at the snap as an added deception.  So why is it so important to prevent it during a kickoff?

E=mc2

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2014, 12:48:37 PM »
The only quick stat I could find is in the ratio of injuries to concussions that are as follows : Regular play = 14.3% of injuries are concussions.   On free kicks = 36.5% of injuries were concussions.  Onside kicks = 76.8% of injuries were concussions. These were national statistics and with the strong focus on concussions indicated a concern.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2014, 02:22:17 PM »
The only quick stat I could find is in the ratio of injuries to concussions that are as follows : Regular play = 14.3% of injuries are concussions.   On free kicks = 36.5% of injuries were concussions.  Onside kicks = 76.8% of injuries were concussions. These were national statistics and with the strong focus on concussions indicated a concern.
That is interesting, but it is missing a key component.  There may be 100,000 injuries on scrimmage plays, 1,000 on free kicks, and 100 on onside kicks.  That doesn't make kickoffs the most dangerous play in football.  Injuries on kickoffs may be more likely to be concussions than injuries on scrimmage plays, but if there are far less of them, then the plays themselves aren't necessarily more dangerous.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2014, 04:32:28 PM »
Taking the numbers a step further, it would be interesting to know how may injuries occur per play type. The hard part would be defining what is an injury.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2014, 01:28:09 PM »
 ???

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2014, 02:52:39 PM »
???
Hey Ralph, here's where I was going with that. Percentages are relative. Using the example of 1,000 free kicks, 14.3% of all injuries were concussions. Of those 1,000 kicks, how many total injuries occurred (or, how many of the thousand kick plays were injury free)?
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2014, 07:12:41 AM »
I totally agree that the stat I provided left a lot of unanswered questions and am reviewing my stack of NFHS material to see if I can find something more detailed. I guess it's only been blind faith for me to believe that kickoffs are the most dangerous plays in football. Two reasons I'm a believer : (1) In most scrimmages & exhibition games kickoffs are ignored and a team takes the ball at a given yardline. Is that because the teams don't have anyone to kick or that the coaches don't want to risk injuries? (2) NFL's Roger Gidell says it is and I assume has the stats to back it up. ....Mentioning Faith, you guys came up with the formula for calculating Easter, but not how it came about.....who knows??? :)

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2014, 10:19:01 AM »
But did you guys know that changing your jersey number so that all 11 players have eligible numbers greatly reduces injury?  LOL!!

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2014, 11:02:31 AM »
But did you guys know that changing your jersey number so that all 11 players have eligible numbers greatly reduces injury?  LOL!!
Changing ones uniform from that of a football player to that of a fantasy football team captain (favorite NFL team cap worn backwards, ratty sweatshirt, torn jeans and flip-flops) will also reduce the chance of injury. It would also reduce ones chance of dating the prom queen, the prom queen's divorced mom or the prom queen's widowed grandma depending on ones age, outlook , or companionship desires.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:14:03 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Johnponz

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2014, 03:44:23 PM »
Easter is celebrated at that time because it coincides with a pagan celebration.  My memory says that the Church compromised on this date to win over the pagan's as converts.  I also think tha the Easter bunny and eggs come from this pagan tradition.

Offline James

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2014, 07:16:31 AM »
Well I'm fairly sure the bunny comes from Cadbury's - at least if your good. If not you get coal in your stocking...

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2014, 08:06:53 AM »
Easter is celebrated at that time because it coincides with a pagan celebration.  My memory says that the Church compromised on this date to win over the pagan's as converts.  I also think tha the Easter bunny and eggs come from this pagan tradition.

I believe that's Christmas/Christmas Trees - not Easter.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2014, 08:31:01 AM »
My understanding of the determination of Easter dates back to the 4th Century. Roman Emperor Constantine - the first such to embrace Christianity - was annoyed that each church celebrated The Resurrection- Easter - on different days. Back then Easter was more than a Sunrise Service and breakfast but included a pilgrimage to Calvery which could take days. Emperor Constantine asked the church leaders to get together and agree on a common day for Easter. The church leaders got together, argued for a week and couldn't agree. Emperor C responded that he would decide and used these 3 factors : (1) The Resurrection is rebirth and Spring is the season of rebirth with flowers sprouting,etc... so it should be in Spring; (2) Sunday is the Holy day of the week...so it should be on Sunday; (3) most of the Pilgrims to Calvery will be traveling night & day by foot..... streetlights weren't yet vogue in Rome, so the best night travel was under the full moon ---- so it should be the first Sunday after the first full moon after the turn of Spring. The Easter bunny and Easter eggs were of a pagan belief : (1) a bird broke it's wings and wasn't able to travel onward; (2) up stepped Goddess Whoever and turned the bird into a rabbit so that it could run on; (3) to thank the Goddess the now rabbit laid a brightly colored egg to show her that it was still a bird. Amazing the things you read and learn (source : National Geographic) while in the hospital growing a new hip. I thanked the doctor, but did not lay him an egg. tiphat:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 08:45:04 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline prab

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2014, 04:22:33 PM »
In 1927, Italian archaeologists uncovered a clay jar with a picture of Constantine holding a bunny .  Coincidentally, he was wearing a toga with 2" black and white stripes.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2014, 04:30:22 PM »
And it obviously made him a better emperor than those before him whose togas only had one inch stripes.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2014, 09:03:19 AM »
But not as good as he would have been with 2 1/2 inch stripes.  Plus, the wider stripes would have helped distinguish him from his entourage.

And all 11 of his advisors had eligible numbers.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2014, 07:48:31 PM »
The actual wordage will (I assume) be : "After the ball is marked ready for play, and until the ball is kicked, K must meet the following formation requirements......" While the Editorial Committee could tweak the wording , they couldn't / shouldn't change the timeframe of the occurring foul.

If one of the intentions of the new free kick positioning rule is to spread players out, will K still be able to run a "bunch" onside kick? If K is able to "bunch" kick, will mechanics (5 man) for this type of free kick remain unchanged? 

Thanks for your thoughts and input on this type of situation.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: 2014 Comments on football rules changes...
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2014, 01:36:57 AM »
In 1927, Italian archaeologists uncovered a clay jar with a picture of Constantine holding a bunny .  Coincidentally, he was wearing a toga with 2" black and white stripes.
LOL