Author Topic: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....  (Read 4066 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2699
  • FAN REACTION: +328/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Friday night this occurred :

 (1) 4th & ABOUT 15 on a poorly- marked field.
 (2)  ^flag for DPI ^flag
 (3) Dilemma : will the penalty make it to the line to gain ??? ???
 (4) Solution : Have the back pole remain secure and bring lead pole stretching backward.
 (5) Coach to me : "Hoke pete, what are ya' up to ??? ???"
      Me to coach : "Ain't auto 1st down no more - checking to see if ya' got it yEs:".
      Coach to me : "'Spect it's your fault, you shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule pi1eOn."
 (6) Tape on chain showed 1st down by 2 inches.
 (7) Coach was happy ;D
      I was happy ;D
      HL and chain crew >:( :( :-X :-\ were not happy.
 (8) PA, media & frenzied masses didn't have a clue :o ??? ::) :!#

......and the band played on.....
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 12:41:54 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline ECILLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 367
  • FAN REACTION: +17/-2
  • Have fun & give 'em your best!
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tail of the tape....
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 10:41:33 AM »
Ralph, We had the same play during a Freshman game last Thursday. The WH was on my head and I wasn't sure what the mechanic was for this situation. I took a gander at the ball and the stakes, it looked close enough for the girls here in the Midwest so I signaled 1st down. No questions, other than those at the game who were paying attention (all 5) wondering what I was doing as I sized up the box and the line to gain stake.

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2219
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 01:27:35 PM »
Good idea, Ralph - not sure I would have thought of that...  Have an extra lobster margarita on me!

Offline Patrick E.

  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-3
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 05:41:24 PM »
Had something similar recently.  4th and 3 for A at B's 6-yard line.  B encroaches.  Is it going to be 4th and short or 1st and goal?  Leaving the clip on the chain, brought out the chains, placed the front stake at the goal line and stretched chains back with back stake on the 10.  Then put the front stake at the front end of the ball and pulled the chain to overlap itself from the 6 to the 3.  Put the ball at the point where the chain is overlapped near the 3.,and then did a normal measurement.  1st and goal by a couple inches!!

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 472
  • FAN REACTION: +7/-31
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 08:15:50 AM »
Had something similar recently.  4th and 3 for A at B's 6-yard line.  B encroaches.  Is it going to be 4th and short or 1st and goal?  Leaving the clip on the chain, brought out the chains, placed the front stake at the goal line and stretched chains back with back stake on the 10.  Then put the front stake at the front end of the ball and pulled the chain to overlap itself from the 6 to the 3.  Put the ball at the point where the chain is overlapped near the 3.,and then did a normal measurement.  1st and goal by a couple inches!!

Interesting. The only problem would be trying to explain this complex method to the coach.

So, you ummm... moved the chains to the goal-line, how does that make sense? Then you ummm... doubled them back to the ball? Huh?

I bet most coaches and fans would not understand any of what you did. Some, of course, would be up in the stands saying 'Wow - what ingenious and smart referees!'

What we really should do is each keep yard-sticks in our back pockets for a situation like this. They can also be used to whack the coaches to keep them off our sidelines.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:15:42 AM by bbeagle »

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1236
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-44
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 10:34:37 AM »
Friday night this occurred :

 (1) 4th & ABOUT 15 on a poorly- marked field.
 (2)  ^flag for DPI ^flag
 (3) Dilemma : will the penalty make it to the line to gain ??? ???
 (4) Solution : Have the back pole remain secure and bring lead pole stretching backward.
 (5) Coach to me : "Hoke pete, what are ya' up to ??? ???"
      Me to coach : "Ain't auto 1st down no more - checking to see if ya' got it yEs:".
      Coach to me : "'Spect it's your fault, you shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule pi1eOn."
 (6) Tape on chain showed 1st down by 2 inches.
 (7) Coach was happy ;D
      I was happy ;D
      HL and chain crew >:( :( :-X :-\ were not happy.
 (8) PA, media & frenzied masses didn't have a clue :o ??? ::) :!#

......and the band played on.....

How many of us ALWAYS make sure that tape is on the chain?  A good reminder... tiphat:

Offline stevestod

  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-2
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 07:09:56 AM »
We always check for the tape on the chain during the field inspection.  If the ball is close to the tape and we have a 5 yard penalty, I can ask is it a long 5or a short 5.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2699
  • FAN REACTION: +328/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 08:29:17 AM »
There are several other uses for the tape (other than taping a yappy coach's mouth shut ;)) .Given the game conditions (50-0 = NO NEED) ,you may want to consider.........

         (1) the 5 yard penalty on B with about 5 to go, as Steve mentioned.

         (2) 15 yarder by B (as in OP) or QB sacked by PFFM about 15 from LTG. Trail pole stationary,lead pole moved backwards.

         (3) 5 or 10 yarder by A beyond LTG. Lead pole stationary, trail pole moved forward; let tape or pole tell you if penalty brings the ball back within oldries.

         (4) 15 yarder by A  about 15 beyond LTG       pole ...exmp : LTG 50, play ends about B's 35 = chains spun 50 to B's 40, chains spun again B's 40 to B's 30 = compare tape to location of ball marking basic spot.

Caution : May wish to warn chain crew of the potential of dizziness may occur :).

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2219
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 09:25:18 AM »
Might also be useful if you end up with a free kick after a fair catch from inside the 10 yard line going in.  The neutral zone extends into the end zone, so you can use the chains to figure out where R can stand.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 627
  • FAN REACTION: +18/-21
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 10:01:59 AM »
This feels like I'm about to fall into a trap, but what what about this:
2.28.2 SITUATION A:

B1 is on his defensive line of scrimmage when he is contacted by ineligible lineman A1 and driven back about 2 yards.

RULING: A1 is not ­illegally downfield, nor has he committed pass interference if a forward pass crosses the neutral zone, since he contacted B1 on the line and after driving him back did not go beyond the neutral zone expanded. If it is a low scrimmage kick and B1 ­touches it, the touching is ignored. B1 is considered to be on his line when he is within 1 yard of his line of scrimmage at the snap. The neutral zone may not be expanded into the end zone. (2-25-3; 6-2-6; 7-5-12)

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 10:37:16 AM »
This feels like I'm about to fall into a trap, but what what about this:
2.28.2 SITUATION A:

B1 is on his defensive line of scrimmage when he is contacted by ineligible lineman A1 and driven back about 2 yards.

RULING: A1 is not ­illegally downfield, nor has he committed pass interference if a forward pass crosses the neutral zone, since he contacted B1 on the line and after driving him back did not go beyond the neutral zone expanded. If it is a low scrimmage kick and B1 ­touches it, the touching is ignored. B1 is considered to be on his line when he is within 1 yard of his line of scrimmage at the snap. The neutral zone may not be expanded into the end zone. (2-25-3; 6-2-6; 7-5-12)

On a free kick, the neutral zone is ALWAYS 10 yards wide (2-28-1).  On a scrimmage play, the neutral zone is the length of the football.  The EXPANDED neutral zone (for determining IED) may not be extended into the end zone.  Free kicks don't have EXPANDED neutral zones.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2699
  • FAN REACTION: +328/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 10:53:54 AM »
Yo, LJ - There's a referendum on the upcoming ballot in Maine to outlaw bear traps. So I'll go easy....

 2-28-1 : "For a free kick down , the neutral zone is 10 yards wide......"

 2-28-2 : "The neutral zone may be expanded following the snap up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage, IN THE FIELD OF PLAY, during any scrimmage down."

 2-26-3 : "The goal line is the vertical plane which separates THE FIELD OF PLAY from the end zone."

Several years ago ,a rule was passed stating the neutral zone on a free-kick couldn't extend into the end zone.
Shortly after it's passage, the notorious "What If  ??? ::) ??? Gang" went to work with this "what if":

.......... Mere seconds to go in the game with K leading by 2... ball is at K's 1, 4th & whatever....K's punt goes straight up and is fair caught by R @ K's 2....R's crafty ole' coach, Iron Nuts McGill, sends in Hans, a Yugoslavian soccer star, to free kick the winning field goal.......K's just as crafty coach, Mellon Head Smith, had suited up 7'2" Kangaroo Jones for just such an occasion.....Hans tees the ball up directly in front of the goal post at the 2 .........Kangaroo Jones lines up directly in front of the ball AT THE GOAL LINE... as Hans approached the ball, Kangaroo began to jump (his long arms and vertical leap brought his hands to 12' above the field....the story would not have had a happy ending for Hans pi1eOn.....

We of the rules committee, quickly realized that had not been a good change >:( :( :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( :bOW :!# pray:; :embarassed: :laugh:

The change was quickly reciended pi1eOn

....And now you know the rest of the story tiphat:...................

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 12:16:16 PM »
Another potential problem:

A scores a TD, but there was a DPI on the play.  After the TD, B24, called for the DPI, has something to say to the official about his poor judgment.  On the successful try, B24 still can't keep his mouth shut and earns his second USC.  B21, trying to protect his teammate, pushes the official out of the way.  As B24 and B21 are escorted to the sideline, the coach has to add his 2 cents, now worth less than half that.

After enforcing the 5 fouls, K is now kicking off from the 3.75 yard line (let's round off to the 4 to make it easy).  Are you going to let K and R line up only 4 yards from each other, and let K players have a 5 yard running start in moving toward them?  Yikes!

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2699
  • FAN REACTION: +328/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 12:36:32 PM »
Very good point,AD, and we worry about onside kick contact ::)! From a kicking coach's perspective,there's a move that Iron Nuts McGiil (the kicker's coach)could have made to make the kick much easier for Hans. Any ideas??? :)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 12:39:17 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 12:48:47 PM »
Idea one: run a play with a high fade pass into the end zone.  Have the non-receivers tackle any defender near the ball.  When the pass is caught, the defense will have no choice but to accept the penalty (otherwise, the TD stands).  Now the ball is backed up 10 yards, the free kick option still exists (although that's another rule that should be changed), and Hans kicks from the 12 with no looming pituitary case in front of him.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 627
  • FAN REACTION: +18/-21
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
"Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2014, 01:01:36 PM »
I knew there was a bear in the bushes somewhere . . . 👀🙊


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2699
  • FAN REACTION: +328/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2014, 07:55:05 AM »
Idea one: run a play with a high fade pass into the end zone.  Have the non-receivers tackle any defender near the ball.  When the pass is caught, the defense will have no choice but to accept the penalty (otherwise, the TD stands).  Now the ball is backed up 10 yards, the free kick option still exists (although that's another rule that should be changed), and Hans kicks from the 12 with no looming pituitary case in front of him.
Good point, R/B would have to take that penalty. My thought was to draw a delay of game foul that would move the ball out to the 7 but keep Kangaroo in the end zone - the problem would be if coach Mellon Head knew the rules, he could decline the yardage. Plan B would then be to send in the field goal team and give Porkchop (the snapper) instructions be be sure that Kangaroo was on his backside by the time of the kick. Such a ploy might also draw ire from the basketball coach, if in attendance, who may feel that Kangaroo might be more important to a state championship as a cager than trying to block a field goal in a contact sport. nAnA It's fun sometimes to play a being a coach ;D

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: "Shouldn't have changed the dag-gum rule!"......a tale of the tape....
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2014, 02:16:41 PM »
Plan B would then be to send in the field goal team and give Porkchop (the snapper) instructions be be sure that Kangaroo was on his backside by the time of the kick. Such a ploy might also draw ire from the basketball coach, if in attendance, who may feel that Kangaroo might be more important to a state championship as a cager than trying to block a field goal in a contact sport. nAnA It's fun sometimes to play a being a coach ;D.
But that isn't a free kick after a fair catch.  Once you add that, you have a scrimmage play, adding a snap and hold the equation, along with a rush.  The game just changed, significantly.