Author Topic: 3.4.2 Situation D Question  (Read 3560 times)

Offline sczeebra

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3.4.2 Situation D Question
« on: June 28, 2015, 09:38:01 AM »
3.4.2 SITUATION D:
K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the penalty.
RULING: After enforcement, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal. (3-4-2b(3))

What exactly in the description of this play makes this ruling true? What if R1 runs or fumbles the ball out of bounds? Thanks in advance for the help.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 11:03:36 AM »
1) There are two types of plays.
2) Which one was this one?
3). What is its enforcement?

Offline sczeebra

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015, 11:32:57 AM »
As I see it, there is only one play when the foul happened and that is during a loose ball play. If R accepts the penalty it would be reinforced at the previous spot. So how does the NFHS determine when the clock starts. I thought that what caused the be to become dead in this case would determine when the clock starts, and there is no indication of how that happened. Thanks Yall.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 11:48:07 AM »
Sounds like there has been an offensive live ball foul during a loose ball play, which calls for previous spot enforcement. As stated, accepting the foul  will result in a 10 yard penalty and repeating 4th down (4th -20), clock would start on the RFP.

If R1 runs,for more than 10yards or fumbles OOB the foul remains exactly the same, but the result of the options (depending on where the ball went OOB) changes.  If, after an OOB fumble, R, having been in possession after the COP, chose to decline the penalty and put the ball in play at the OOB spot, the clock would start on the snap. (1st down after a kick).

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015, 03:37:35 PM »
Don't try to draw more conclusions than is presented.  it was a live ball foul, loose ball play.  When R accepted the penalty, it was previous spot enforcement.  The clock was obviously running during the play.

There are major and minor clock stoppers.  In this event, possession did not change, which is a major clock stopper.

Offline sczeebra

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2015, 09:43:21 PM »
Now wait just one last reflection before I retire to nighty-night land. R accepts the penalty. It was 4th and 10, holding is a 10 yard penalty, loose ball play previous spot, availing R a new series 1st and 10. Now lets see, new series after a legal kick, the clock starts on the?????????????? My book says snap!

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2015, 10:17:52 PM »
Holding was on K.  Penalty was accepted.  How are you getting a new series to R?

Offline sczeebra

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 05:20:04 AM »
My mistake, a new series awarded to K. Still starts on the snap.

Offline sczeebra

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 05:50:23 AM »
Woa, let me start this morning again. I will pray first that I don't do this on a Friday, Thursday, or any other night of the week on the field. Again my understanding is that what ever causes the ball to become dead has not been told here. So by rights given the information listed in the casebook I can't determine when to start the clock. This was my whole reason to start this thread. If R had been tackled inbounds the clock would start on the ready, if R ran out of bounds it would start on the snap. There is just not enough information in the play as given. My question is, am I wrong in thinking that? Have a good week good sir's or ma'ams.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 06:58:58 AM »
Woa, let me start this morning again. I will pray first that I don't do this on a Friday, Thursday, or any other night of the week on the field. Again my understanding is that what ever causes the ball to become dead has not been told here. So by rights given the information listed in the casebook I can't determine when to start the clock. This was my whole reason to start this thread. If R had been tackled inbounds the clock would start on the ready, if R ran out of bounds it would start on the snap. There is just not enough information in the play as given. My question is, am I wrong in thinking that? Have a good week good sir's or ma'ams.
You are correct.  The point of the case was to make sure you know that the penalty doesn't cause the clock to start on the snap, which you might think since we had a legal kick.  But they should have been more clear as to what actually stopped the clock.  If R was tackled inbounds, on the RFP.  Out of bounds, on the snap.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 07:40:42 AM »
The rationale of the timing rule is : If a new series is created on a scrimmage kick, start the clock on the snap even if K retains the ball, as mass substitutions will occur as kicking team leaves and the offense enters. The penalty against K didn't create a new series but created 4th & 20....clock starts on the ready. Hope that makes sense.           

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 08:01:31 AM »
Quote
So by rights given the information listed in the casebook I can't determine when to start the clock.

Don't extrapolate "facts not in evidence".  It was a live ball foul, the penalty was accepted, previous spot enforcement.  The status of the clock was running during the kick.  A new series was not awarded to K nor R so we would revert back to the clock status.

More detail could have been written in but if every case play required all the particulars of it included, the Case Book would take on the dimensions of War & Peace.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 08:21:26 AM »
It was a live ball foul, the penalty was accepted, previous spot enforcement.  The status of the clock was running during the kick.  A new series was not awarded to K nor R so we would revert back to the clock status.

Bingo.  Since the foul was on K and is enforced previous spot, we're repeating the down after enforcement.  We go from 4/10 to 4/20.  No major clock stoppers have occurred, so wind the clock on the RFP.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 08:30:19 AM »
Don't extrapolate "facts not in evidence".  It was a live ball foul, the penalty was accepted, previous spot enforcement.  The status of the clock was running during the kick.  A new series was not awarded to K nor R so we would revert back to the clock status.

More detail could have been written in but if every case play required all the particulars of it included, the Case Book would take on the dimensions of War & Peace.
...."It was a cold, windy day as K11, the punter, entered the game. He glanced at the downsmarker- held by a rather obtuse gentleman wearing a Colts cap- '4th and 10 :(' mused K11,'no time for a fake punt'. His eyes then met, ever so briefly, those of the prom queen. He detected a slight smile :) on her face and began to  ;D grin as the snap spiraled towards him...."

--Very good point, HL tiphat:

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 08:52:12 AM »
...."It was a cold, windy day as K11, the punter, entered the game. He glanced at the downsmarker- held by a rather obtuse gentleman wearing a Colts cap- '4th and 10 :(' mused K11,'no time for a fake punt'. His eyes then met, ever so briefly, those of the prom queen. He detected a slight smile :) on her face and began to  ;D grin as the snap spiraled towards him...."

--Very good point, HL tiphat:
I'm impressed that the punter caught the eye of the prom queen, and that the snap was a spiral.  Good day for the special teams!

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 09:08:14 AM »
I'm impressed that the punter caught the eye of the prom queen, and that the snap was a spiral.  Good day for the special teams!
Often, kickers are foreign exchange students with soccer skills but wanting to play in the glamor sport. tiphat:

Often, girls fall for guys with "sexy accents". tiphat:

Often, the prom queen is a girl. tiphat:

"Ayuh, wanta' go for a ride in my pickup down to tha' dump and shoot rats..." probably doesn't have the same allure as in my daze of youth :)!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2015, 10:05:09 AM »
I'm impressed that the punter caught the eye of the prom queen, and that the snap was a spiral.  Good day for the special teams!

As I'm sure you're aware, every punt has to successfully overcome 3 equally dangerous, potential land mines; the snap, receiving the snap cleanly and getting a good kick off (unblocked).

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 3.4.2 Situation D Question
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2015, 10:24:20 AM »
Often, the prom queen is a girl. tiphat:
...in this day and age...

Naw, I won't go there.  :!#
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