Author Topic: Kick/pass legal?  (Read 3870 times)

Offline bbeagle

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Kick/pass legal?
« on: July 31, 2015, 02:27:27 PM »
Just thinking up weird scenarios to get my brain back into football this year.

Play: 4th and 10 at R30. K lines up for a 47 yard field goal. A long field goal. Too long for this kicker. So... Ball snapped back to holder, K1 at R37. Holder places ball down. K2 nudge kicks the ball just up and to the side to the R35. Player K3 'catches' the kick while standing on player K4's back. (Player K4 went to the ground at the snap, face-down, lying on the ground and Player K3 stepped on to his back) Player K3 throws a deep ball 45 yards downfield between the uprights.

1. Ruling? Is the field goal good? Is the pass incomplete?
2. If there is a penalty, what if R declines it?
3. What if the kick/pass misses the uprights? What are Team R's options?
4. What if Player K3 was standing on Player K4's helmet instead of on his back?
5. What if Player K3 was standing on a towel instead of Player K4?

Offline theunofficialofficial

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2015, 03:19:05 PM »
Okay, I'll take a crack at this one...

The field goal is not good, we don't have a kick anymore as soon as K3 catches the ball behind the neutral zone. So we have an incomplete pass that lands in the end zone. So it's the same thing as if 'A' had thrown a pass and it went through the uprights -> incomplete.

As for the standing on a player (back/head/etc) I would say that you might have some very misconstrued version of an 'assisting the runner'. As you now have a player in possession of the ball. 9-1 "An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward progress."

As for standing on the towel if a player drops it and the runner is standing on it you're good. If the kicker was standing on the towel he would be in violation of 2-24-7 "No material or device may be placed on the ground to improve the kickerís footing."

At the end of it all no matter what R is going to decline the penalty and take the ball first and 10 at their 30 on downs.

Offline Curious

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2015, 03:28:05 PM »
You are one sick man beagle...... :!# yEs:

Offline Kalle

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2015, 03:42:53 PM »
From an NCAA official: is the catch of the kick completed considering K3 never touches the ground while having possession of the ball?

Offline VALJ

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2015, 04:00:56 PM »
From an NFHS official, same question.  Since he's not touching the ground, has he established possession?  And if not, can he legally throw the football?

And can we stop Beagle from coming up with any more wild hypotheticals?   ;D

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2015, 04:05:57 PM »
I've got at least 2 fouls:

9-4-3e
No player shall position himself on the shoulders or body of a teammate or opponent to gain an advantage

9-6-4e
It is illegal participation for a player to be lying on the ground to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 04:23:34 PM by FLAHL »

Online HLinNC

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2015, 08:04:03 PM »
 ::)

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 07:44:57 AM »
From an NFHS official, same question.  Since he's not touching the ground, has he established possession?  And if not, can he legally throw the football?

And can we stop Beagle from coming up with any more wild hypotheticals?   ;D

According to the NFHS rule book, a kick remains a kick until possession is gained. Possession is not gained until a ball is caught or recovered when the receiver is contacting the ground. It's not a 'catch'.

2-24-2 KICK A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession.

2-4-1 CATCH A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball...

Thus, The 'pass' is part of the kick. And it's not a real pass either, because a pass, by definition, can only be thrown once the ball is in player possession. And there is no player possession, so no 'pass', just part of the kick.

2-31-1 PASSING: Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession.

In my understanding of the NFHS rules, if the defense declined the penalty, this would be a legal field goal.

And touching of the ball by an offensive player behind the line of scrimmage during a field goal attempt is ignored.

The only penalty I can find is: 9-4-3e ILLEGAL PERSONAL CONTACT - No player or non player shall position himself on the shoulders or body of a teammate or opponent to gain an advantage.

I'm just trying to follow this ludicrous play in the rule book, and as far as I can tell, this is my understanding.

Now if the player is standing on a towel, technically they aren't on the ground, right? I don't see anywhere in the rules where a towel is considered part of the ground. Saying that, in a real game, I'm not a moron, I would rule a pass that bounced off a towel on the ground incomplete. But do I have rules support? lol lol lol

« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 07:47:56 AM by bbeagle »

Offline Kalle

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 07:58:27 AM »
Again an NCAA based question: can team A bat a kick behind or beyond the neutral zone?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 09:09:36 AM »
Just thinking up weird scenarios to get my brain back into football this year.

Play: 4th and 10 at R30. K lines up for a 47 yard field goal. A long field goal. Too long for this kicker. So... Ball snapped back to holder, K1 at R37. Holder places ball down. K2 nudge kicks the ball just up and to the side to the R35. Player K3 'catches' the kick while standing on player K4's back. (Player K4 went to the ground at the snap, face-down, lying on the ground and Player K3 stepped on to his back) Player K3 throws a deep ball 45 yards downfield between the uprights.

1. Ruling? Is the field goal good? Is the pass incomplete?
2. If there is a penalty, what if R declines it?
3. What if the kick/pass misses the uprights? What are Team R's options?
4. What if Player K3 was standing on Player K4's helmet instead of on his back?
5. What if Player K3 was standing on a towel instead of Player K4?
1. You could call it was an incomplete pass.
2. If you were in a bad mood, you could call it an illegal bat. If declined, K put the ball in the EZ = TB.
3. It can't be a kick, it could be an incomplete pass = R's ball, new series.
4.I hope K4 has a tough back/neck/head...I also hope K3 is not wearing his spikes.
5.K3's mom should be required to wash the towel.

This may be a rare time to pull out ole' 1-1-6, as this isn't how Knute Rockne would try to score a field goal. Hopefully, the coach would have responded with this when you asked about trick plays in pregame.
My rebuttal would have been : "Coach, for the spirit of the rule, I would consider the passer that you want considered 'the kick director' to be touching the ground that his teammate/ towel was touching per rule 1-1-6".

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2015, 10:06:36 AM »
Forgetting the whole "standing on a teammates back" scenario, the NCAA addressed a similar issue a few years ago.  Forward pass beyond the LOS.  DB goes up in the air near the sideline, grasps the ball, and directs it to an inbounds teammate for an interception.  This is considered a "batting" of the ball, even though it was grasped and propelled, not struck.  And since it's legal to bat a pass in flight, the play by the DB is legal.

Applying that theory here, this is an illegal batting of the ball.  Given that's it's also illegal to leap off the back of an teammate, there are a number of live ball fouls on the offense here.

What's it's not is a field goal. 

Offline prab

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 10:18:55 AM »
Just thinking up weird scenarios to get my brain back into football this year.

Play: 4th and 10 at R30. K lines up for a 47 yard field goal. A long field goal. Too long for this kicker. So... Ball snapped back to holder, K1 at R37. Holder places ball down. K2 nudge kicks the ball just up and to the side to the R35. Player K3 'catches' the kick while standing on player K4's back. (Player K4 went to the ground at the snap, face-down, lying on the ground and Player K3 stepped on to his back) Player K3 throws a deep ball 45 yards downfield between the uprights.

1. Ruling? Is the field goal good? Is the pass incomplete?
2. If there is a penalty, what if R declines it?
3. What if the kick/pass misses the uprights? What are Team R's options?
4. What if Player K3 was standing on Player K4's helmet instead of on his back?
5. What if Player K3 was standing on a towel instead of Player K4?

I wish that I had a dime for every time that this play has come up during my time as an NFHS official!  If I recall correctly, the last time it came up we had the additional fouls on both teams:  K3's cleats were 17/32 inch instead of the maximum 1/2 inch as prescribed by rule;  all members of R were wearing jerseys with front numbers 7 63/64 inches high instead of the 8 inch minimum prescribed by rule; K3 had a blue towel while K4 had a white one. 

Now here is another play for your consideration:  1st and 10 for A on A's 20 yard line.  A1 runs the ball up the middle for a gain of 5 yards.  There are no flags on the play.  I say it should be A's ball 2nd and 5 on A's 25 yard line but would like to hear what others might think. 

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 11:26:13 AM »
1. You could call it was an incomplete pass.
2. If you were in a bad mood, you could call it an illegal bat. If declined, K put the ball in the EZ = TB.
3. It can't be a kick, it could be an incomplete pass = R's ball, new series.
4.I hope K4 has a tough back/neck/head...I also hope K3 is not wearing his spikes.
5.K3's mom should be required to wash the towel.

How could you call it an incomplete pass? A kick is a kick until the ball has been possessed by a player.

I could not call it an incomplete pass!

What would happen if the player jumped up, caught it and threw it much like the NCAA 'batted' pass out-of-bounds scenario? I think the RESULT OF THE PLAY is a field goal. There would be an illegal bat flag, but the defense is within their rights to decline the penalty and allow the results of the play.


Online HLinNC

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Re: Kick/pass legal?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 01:47:51 PM »