Author Topic: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call  (Read 4175 times)

younggun

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2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« on: October 20, 2015, 04:17:40 PM »
2nd and 10 at the B-10 with time about to run out in the 4th quarter. Team A runs its FG unit on to the field to win the ball game. Team A's FG unit has zero 50-79 players. Team A gets set up in a legal scrimmage kick formation and kicks the game winning FG.... problem?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2015, 04:22:37 PM »
 ^flag

Now, are the R/U going to check/remember that it's only 2nd down and remember to flag the formation that would have been legal on 4th down?

 :sTiR:

Offline Martin Kiff

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2015, 04:32:00 PM »
As long as they kick it, they are good.  If they run a fake then the problemo's start. 
Bad spellers of the world... Untie!

Offline ncwingman

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2015, 04:43:11 PM »
As long as they kick it, they are good.  If they run a fake then the problemo's start. 

In a scrimmage kick formation on 1st-3rd downs, you need at least 4 players wearing 50-79 on the line of scrimmage -- only the snapper (between the ends) may be another number.

If not in a scrimmage kick formation, you need at least 5 players on the line numbered 50-79.

On fourth down or a kick try down, you can do whatever you want.

What you do after the ball is snapped is irrelevant.

Offline BoBo

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 07:16:36 PM »
Illegal Formation, 5 yard penalty against the kicking team

Offline Curious

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2015, 11:12:20 AM »
Another unnecessarily overly-confusing rule hEaDbAnG >:D :sTiR:


Offline VALJ

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2015, 12:12:47 PM »
Another unnecessarily overly-confusing rule hEaDbAnG >:D :sTiR:

...that was necessary to counter the "All 11" gimmick that was a minor fad a few years back.

younggun

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2015, 12:13:31 PM »
Illegal Formation, 5 yard penalty against the kicking team

Illegal Numbering

younggun

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2015, 12:15:24 PM »
...that was necessary to counter the "All 11" gimmick that was a minor fad a few years back.

All the rule had to be was "if you use numbering exceptions, you must have a legal scrimmage kick during the down."

I just think an unintended consequence is a team trying to kick a FG on 2nd down as time runs out is now a foul (if they use numbering exceptions) 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2015, 01:08:12 PM »
All the rule had to be was "if you use numbering exceptions, you must have a legal scrimmage kick during the down."
And thus remove all fake kicks from the game.  And suppose the punter drops the ball and never kicks it.  Or the snap is wide on a FG and the holder can't reach it.  Those all become illegal numbering fouls under your rule.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2015, 03:06:54 PM »
Illegal Numbering

Or as the PA guy will say, "False Start"

younggun

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2015, 09:53:11 PM »
And thus remove all fake kicks from the game.  And suppose the punter drops the ball and never kicks it.  Or the snap is wide on a FG and the holder can't reach it.  Those all become illegal numbering fouls under your rule.

Sorry... I meant on downs 1-3.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2015, 10:39:34 PM »
Sorry... I meant on downs 1-3.
Still doesn't work, for the same reasons.  You can't require there to be a scrimmage kick.  But you can require them to be in a scrimmage kick formation, which the rule already does.

Offline Ump33

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 06:47:52 AM »
Does not the NCAA rule on "free numbering" state something like ... free numbering is allowed if it is apparent that a scrimmage kick may be attempted?

If the NFHS would have made a statement similar to "it is apparent that a scrimmage kick may be attempted" then the current requirements would be simpler. Also, they would have succeeded in eliminating the loop hole used by the A11.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2015, 07:12:13 AM »
Does not the NCAA rule on "free numbering" state something like ... free numbering is allowed if it is apparent that a scrimmage kick may be attempted?

If the NFHS would have made a statement similar to "it is apparent that a scrimmage kick may be attempted" then the current requirements would be simpler. Also, they would have succeeded in eliminating the loop hole used by the A11.
That was the Method that the NCAA applied that prevented the -not be confused with A1 Sauce -offense to be used in their house. That was also my proposal to the NFHS when rule change time came rolling along. The subcommittee handling that debated for 4 hours and came up with what we now have. Apparently my proposal was too simple.

Offline Curious

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2015, 09:10:10 AM »
Like I said: "another unnecessarily overly-confusing rule"   tiphat:

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2015, 09:41:27 AM »
That was the Method that the NCAA applied that prevented the -not be confused with A1 Sauce -offense to be used in their house. That was also my proposal to the NFHS when rule change time came rolling along. The subcommittee handling that debated for 4 hours and came up with what we now have. Apparently my proposal was too simple.
Ralph:
You know better than I, but I have "heard" there is a "pride of publication", meaning that there are a fair number of people on the committee that want to make sure they don't don't it the NCAA way.  They go out of their way to make sure they aren't just duplicating the NCAA rule.

If true, sometimes that may be the better thing for FED, but sometimes, they may be over complicating something or reinventing the wheel.  This is one of those cases where simply adopting the NCAA rule would have been the better course of action.

Offline J12

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2015, 10:03:35 AM »
Or as the PA guy will say, "False Start"

And then the fans yell at the "refs" for allowing the play to continue after a false start.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2015, 10:11:49 AM »
And then the fans yell at the "refs" for allowing the play to continue after a false start.

More likely to say, "Illegal Procedure"!

Offline maybrefguy

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2015, 10:16:04 AM »
So let's be clear - if they kick it on 2nd down and don't have 5 guys numbered 50-79, is it a penalty?  The way the rule is worded it makes it sound like it should be a penalty. 

Offline BrendanP

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2015, 10:26:20 AM »
Does not the NCAA rule on "free numbering" state something like ... free numbering is allowed if it is apparent that a scrimmage kick may be attempted?

If the NFHS would have made a statement similar to "it is apparent that a scrimmage kick may be attempted" then the current requirements would be simpler. Also, they would have succeeded in eliminating the loop hole used by the A11.

Yeah that's what I thought. That's one complaint I've heard from my varsity friends around here is that some of these rules are too broad and don't account for the fact that the first rule of football is that CRAP happens. One guy I know that works DII NCAA games says he wishes the NCAA would have added an exception to the ten second runoff injury rule for situations when it's obvious he's not faking. Apparently he had a game where one player had to be strapped to a backboard and hauled away in an ambulance, and there's apparently no provision to waive the runoff even in that situation.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2015, 10:51:23 AM »
So let's be clear - if they kick it on 2nd down and don't have 5 guys numbered 50-79, is it a penalty?  The way the rule is worded it makes it sound like it should be a penalty.
No, not necessarily.  On 1st-3rd down, they are allowed ONE exception if that is the snapper.  He may not be on the end of the line, and thus in an ineligible receiver.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2015, 10:58:03 AM »
Ralph:
You know better than I, but I have "heard" there is a "pride of publication", meaning that there are a fair number of people on the committee that want to make sure they don't don't it the NCAA way.  They go out of their way to make sure they aren't just duplicating the NCAA rule.
Term limits might take care of that problem.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2015, 11:06:52 AM »
Apparently he had a game where one player had to be strapped to a backboard and hauled away in an ambulance, and there's apparently no provision to waive the runoff even in that situation.

The opposing team captain can decline the runoff option. NCAA rule 3-3-5-f.

Offline maybrefguy

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Re: 2nd Down Kick -You make the call
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2015, 11:13:07 AM »
AB - thank you.  That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure.