Author Topic: Touchback or Safety?  (Read 4517 times)

Offline AZstripes

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Touchback or Safety?
« on: May 01, 2016, 09:09:03 AM »
Our crew was doing a youth game on Saturday. Here is the play that happened:

A punts the ball from in the end zone. The ball only makes it to the 6 at which point B muffs the punt and the ball bounces into the end zone and out of bounds.

It was ruled a touchback on the field. After discussion at half time, we felt like the call was blown and it should have been a safety since the last team in possession was A and the muff didn't establish possession for B. Is this logic correct?

Thanks in advance.

Offline Curious

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2016, 11:26:39 AM »
Classic mistake :'( :'( :'( that I've seen made too many times.  Great teaching moment...

The kick had not ended; therefore it (the kick) remains the force that put the ball into K's EZ = SAFETY

See Case Book play 8.5.1 and Rule8-5-1a

Your subsequent discussion should not have focused on "possession" per se; but, rather, what (force) caused the ball to get into K's EZ.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2016, 03:19:28 PM »
A kick is a kick is a kick, until something ends the kick.  Nothing ended the kick, so this was a kick OOB in the end zone.  As you realized later, it was a safety.

Offline prab

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2016, 03:55:01 PM »
The OP does not clearly state whether the punt was muffed while it was still airborne, or if the kick had already been grounded. 

If the muff was while the punt was still airborne, then safety, for the reasons already stated by previous posters.

If however, the muff occurred after the punt had been grounded, doesn't the covering official have to make a determination as to whether the muff constituted a "new force"?  Such a determination could result in a touchback, couldn't it?

Offline Ump33

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2016, 04:44:32 PM »
The OP does not clearly state whether the punt was muffed while it was still airborne, or if the kick had already been grounded. 

If the muff was while the punt was still airborne, then safety, for the reasons already stated by previous posters.

If however, the muff occurred after the punt had been grounded, doesn't the covering official have to make a determination as to whether the muff constituted a "new force"?  Such a determination could result in a touchback, couldn't it?
+1 ... See 2014 Case Book 8.5.3A. The statement "a kick is a kick" should only applies to kicks entering R's end zone because Force is not a factor on these kicks (2-13-4).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 04:46:07 PM by Ump33 »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2016, 04:53:14 PM »
I assumed R muffed the punt attempting to catch it, not after it was grounded.  While a grounded punt is still a punt, yes, a new force could be added to a ball into K's end zone.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 06:55:52 PM »
Wow.  A punt in youth football.  That would rank right up there with Sasquatch, the Holy Grail, and Intentional DPI around here.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2016, 07:22:45 AM »
An airborne punt through R's hands is treated the same as a blocked punt, as no new force can be added until the kick has hit the ground = safety. If the punt, after going through R1's hands and hits the ground, is then muffed by R2 whose force caused the ball to go into K's EZ and stay = TB. Remember ,guys, the kick remains alive when entering K's EZ. Blowing it dead, like you would in R's , would = IW = replay the down = one very happy coach :D :D :D + one very unhappy coach >:( >:( >:(.

inadvertent whistles rarely have happy endings...

 pi1eOn hEaDbAnG :!#
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 08:42:54 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 03:42:03 PM »
Our crew was doing a youth game on Saturday. Here is the play that happened


It's May. Are there youth leagues that play Spring Football?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2016, 10:27:19 PM »
Quote
It's May. Are there youth leagues that play Spring Football?

I was in Hawaii 3 years ago for spring break.  On the bus trip over to to the luau, we passed a field where some team was practicing in full gear.

Offline riffraft

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 03:14:41 PM »

It's May. Are there youth leagues that play Spring Football?

Here in the Phoenix area, March and April there is a shorter Spring football season.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 08:09:49 AM »
Here in the Phoenix area, March and April there is a shorter Spring football season.

If we in hot climates really cared about the health and safety of our kids, we'd swap
football & baseball seasons.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 09:05:18 AM »
If we in hot climates really cared about the health and safety of our kids, we'd swap
football & baseball seasons.
That suggestion was brought up in Georgia one year.  Didn't go anywhere, and one of the biggest issues was college recruiting of football players (which is the second biggest high school sport in the state).

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 09:24:14 AM »
Spring football in Maine : Watching NE Patriot reruns and remembering the daze when we had a QB named Brady. Spring in Maine signals the end of ice-fishing, snowmobile racing, snowshoe trekking and the like. Soon the sounds of Spring will begin with the sounds of birds chirping and bat hitting ball. Pennant / Gray Cup fever has begun to emerge.....

  GO RED SOX aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
VIVA LES ALLOUETTES aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 09:26:14 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 10:00:24 AM »
If we in hot climates really cared about the health and safety of our kids, we'd swap
football & baseball seasons.

First week of HS football in FL is August 19, so we'll have 3 weeks in the books before Labor Day.  First week of youth football in our area is August 2.  Better start hydrating for that right now!

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2016, 01:05:33 PM »
Soon the sounds of Spring will begin with the sounds of birds chirping and bat hitting ball.
Soon?  We won the second round of the playoffs last night!  State Championship is in 16 days.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2016, 03:32:46 PM »
First week of HS football in FL is August 19, so we'll have 3 weeks in the books before Labor Day.  First week of youth football in our area is August 2.  Better start hydrating for that right now!

We're on pretty much the same track in NC.  Its not too bad on our side of the state but east of here, particularly the coastal plain, its toasty.  I've said for years we start too early, particularly youth ball.  I think when I was in HS, late 70's to '81,  Week 1 was the last Friday in August so we're up a full two weeks.  We have also gone from 10 games max to 11 if you play an endowment.  The regionals were the week of Thanksgiving, normally.  The state finals were late November-early December.  Now the finals date has two digits in December most years.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 07:51:51 AM »
I think when I was in HS, late 70's to '81,  Week 1 was the last Friday in August...

In 1958, Coach Paul Bryant's first season at Alabama, their opening game was September 27th...and that's NOT a typo.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 07:59:10 AM »
That suggestion was brought up in Georgia one year.  Didn't go anywhere, and one of the biggest issues was college recruiting of football players (which is the second biggest high school sport in the state).

Yeah, I know.  If it weren't for early enrollment issues, it would be a viable alternative.  Still, we're endangering 100% of the players to accommodate the 4% who get college scholarships.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Touchback or Safety?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2016, 09:19:39 AM »
Soon?  We won the second round of the playoffs last night!  State Championship is in 16 days.
You guys south of Mason-Dixon miss the enjoyment of shoveling out your car, slipping on ice and seeing your hands begin to turn blue :) ;) :D >:( :( :o 8] ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :'(!!

We are 3 weeks into our baseball season and have yet to work without jacket & turtle neck. Our championships are mid-June, often many schools are already out. We are able to stay warm by cheering on our beloved (as long as they are winning) Red Sox  :).