Author Topic: Out/In/Out  (Read 6808 times)

nolary

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Out/In/Out
« on: August 08, 2010, 09:57:30 AM »
A punt run out of the end zone that goes dead at the 2 yard line will be scrimmaged at the 20 yd line.  What happens in this case: The ball is cleanly fielded on the 2 yd line and the returner re enters the end zone to avoid a tackler and is then back at the 2 yd line.  Where is the next line of scrimmage?

I have not been able to find a reference in the rules and have been told that the los should be the 20 yd line.  I disagree.  I think the los should be the 2 yd line. If the returner catches the ball in the end zone and the ball goes dead in the end zone it is a single point.  In the case of fielding the ball on the 2 yd line and re entering the end zone, if the ball goes dead in the end zone it is a safety!  In my opinion, by re entering the end zone, the returner should forfeit the right to the 20 yd line.

Comments?

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 10:57:46 AM »
A punt run out of the end zone that goes dead at the 2 yard line will be scrimmaged at the 20 yd line.  What happens in this case: The ball is cleanly fielded on the 2 yd line and the returner re enters the end zone to avoid a tackler and is then back at the 2 yd line.  Where is the next line of scrimmage?

I have not been able to find a reference in the rules and have been told that the los should be the 20 yd line.  I disagree.  I think the los should be the 2 yd line. If the returner catches the ball in the end zone and the ball goes dead in the end zone it is a single point.  In the case of fielding the ball on the 2 yd line and re entering the end zone, if the ball goes dead in the end zone it is a safety!  In my opinion, by re entering the end zone, the returner should forfeit the right to the 20 yd line.

Comments?

To answer your question, the PNS (Point of Next Scrimmage) is the 2 yard line.

You are correct that if a runner enters the EZ on his own, he forfeits the 20 yard line provision.

Now, a small twist: what would you rule if the catch that occurs on the 2 happened because the ball was kicked over the head of the punt receiver (who was initially stationed at the B-10), and momentum caused the punt returner to enter his EZ?

83andlearning

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 03:39:57 PM »
If the momentum of the catch brings him into his endzone, he would be ruled to have caught the ball in the endzone.  If he is hit into the endzone, the ball would be ruled dead at forward momentum of the ball, which may or not have been out of the endzone! 

The out/in/out has been ruled correctly, if the player (Team A) is able to get out of the endzone he is no longer afforded the 'benefits' of taking a knee in the endzone.  Once they re-enter the endzone under their own will, they are in a safety position and if tackled or takes a knee they give up 2 points and Team B gets the option to have Team A kick to them, take it on the 35 or Team B from their 35.

Anorak

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 02:54:05 PM »
A punt run out of the end zone that goes dead at the 2 yard line will be scrimmaged at the 20 yd line.  What happens in this case: The ball is cleanly fielded on the 2 yd line and the returner re enters the end zone to avoid a tackler and is then back at the 2 yd line.  Where is the next line of scrimmage?

I have not been able to find a reference in the rules and have been told that the los should be the 20 yd line.  I disagree.  I think the los should be the 2 yd line. If the returner catches the ball in the end zone and the ball goes dead in the end zone it is a single point.  In the case of fielding the ball on the 2 yd line and re entering the end zone, if the ball goes dead in the end zone it is a safety!  In my opinion, by re entering the end zone, the returner should forfeit the right to the 20 yd line.

Comments?

I'm in the camp that believes the next LOS is the 20.

The requirements in the rule are:
1. Kick from scrimmage
2. Enters the end zone
3. Receiving team successfully, and legally, advances the ball out of the end zone
4. Receiving team retains possession

In the case where the runner takes it at the -5, gets out to the 1, retreats back into the end zone, and gets back out to the 2, he has met all three conditions. Thus, B gets the ball at the 20.

How the returner goes about successfully, legally advancing the ball out of the end zone is irrelevant. Yes, if he went back into the end zone, he would have conceded a safety touch. A returner does so at his own risk.

I do not see any basis in the rulebook for putting the ball on the 2 in the out/in/out scenario.

83andlearning

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 11:44:15 PM »
A punt run out of the end zone that goes dead at the 2 yard line will be scrimmaged at the 20 yd line.  What happens in this case: The ball is cleanly fielded on the 2 yd line and the returner re enters the end zone to avoid a tackler and is then back at the 2 yd line.  Where is the next line of scrimmage?

At the two yard line, the ball was not caught in the endzone and therefore he does not get the benifits of being caught in the endzone.  If the ball is punted to the one yard line and fielded on the one yard line then straight out of bounds that is a perfect punt!  If he retreats into his own endzone it is a safety, but if he catches it out of the endzone then backs up into it, we cannot say that it is on the 20, or all returners would just run back into their endzones!

Anorak

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 02:42:02 PM »
At the two yard line, the ball was not caught in the endzone and therefore he does not get the benifits of being caught in the endzone.  If the ball is punted to the one yard line and fielded on the one yard line then straight out of bounds that is a perfect punt!  If he retreats into his own endzone it is a safety, but if he catches it out of the endzone then backs up into it, we cannot say that it is on the 20, or all returners would just run back into their endzones!

Agreed. The kick has to go into the end zone to trigger the guaranteed 20 provision.

(It is at this point I realize that I misread the OP.  pi1eOn )

nolary

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 05:17:45 PM »
If I am not mistaken the rulebook states that a punt fielded in the endzone and run out that goes dead anywhere short of the 20 yd line is automatically awarded the 20 yd line.  A punt that is run out of the endzone is out of the endzone.  A punt fielded in the endzone that goes dead in the endzone is a rouge.  By re entering the endzone a ball that goes dead is now a safety, therefore I believe that the guarantee of the 20 yd line is inconsistent with the rules and the interpretation should be that a ball fielded in the endzone, run out, run back in and goes dead at the 2 should only get the 2.

Anorak

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 01:07:06 AM »
If I am not mistaken the rulebook states that a punt fielded in the endzone and run out that goes dead anywhere short of the 20 yd line is automatically awarded the 20 yd line.  A punt that is run out of the endzone is out of the endzone.  A punt fielded in the endzone that goes dead in the endzone is a rouge.  By re entering the endzone a ball that goes dead is now a safety, therefore I believe that the guarantee of the 20 yd line is inconsistent with the rules and the interpretation should be that a ball fielded in the endzone, run out, run back in and goes dead at the 2 should only get the 2.

The quote is this (3-2-4): "On any kick from scrimmage (which excludes kickoffs) where the ball enters the end zone, the receiving team being able to successfully advance the ball legally out of the end zone and retain possession, may choose to scrimmage at their own 20-yard line or where the ball becomes dead."

Thus, to me, the relevant points are:
1. Is this a kick from scrimmage?
2. Did the kick go into the end zone?
3. Did the receiving team successfully - and legally - advance the ball out?
4. Did they retain possession?

If Team B catches the ball 5 yards deep, gets it out to the 1, retreats back into the end zone and gets back out to the 2, the answer to all three questions is "yes". So, they get the ball at the 20.

Had the returner been tackled in the end zone, the answer to Question 3 would have been no, and a safety touch would be given.

It is irrelevant how the returner decides to get to the 2. The bottom line is that he got there. Yes, he puts himself at risk of giving up a safety by retreating into the end zone, but I see nothing in the book that says he gives up the guarantee of the 20 yard line.

nolary

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 02:57:54 PM »
In my opinion, the returner should forfeit the 20 if he intentionally reenters the endzone.  The logic is that once you exit the endzone the rules applying to the kick are in force and when you return to the endzone they are not.

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2010, 05:32:43 PM »
For those that don't remember, this case was in the 2009 exam, part A, question 17.

The interpretor has ruled that B does not get the 20.

With thanks to ChathamGuy.

Anorak

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 08:51:55 AM »
The interpretor has ruled that B does not get the 20.

On what basis? I don't see how the rule, as currently written, permits that interpretation.

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2010, 09:15:36 AM »
On what basis? I don't see how the rule, as currently written, permits that interpretation.

The article didn't specify what was going through his mind.

Also note for that years, Loose Ball Interference didn't specify an automatic first down to the non-offending team, but it was understood to include that.  (If not considered (let alone specified), B could LBI against A when A fumbled on last down, without penalty, since YNG and B would get the ball regardless.)  This loophole was closed in 2002.

I have no problems submitting something for 2012 to have text to agree with the given interpretation.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 09:17:59 AM by JugglingReferee »

nolary

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2010, 10:24:04 AM »
Quote
It is irrelevant how the returner decides to get to the 2. The bottom line is that he got there. Yes, he puts himself at risk of giving up a safety by retreating into the end zone, but I see nothing in the book that says he gives up the guarantee of the 20 yard line.

A punt fielded in the endzone going dead in the endzone is a rouge,
; 1 point.  If said punt is run out and goes dead on the 2 then award the 20.  If said punt is run out and then voluntarily back in, it is no longer a punt but a ball returned to the endzone.  If said ball goes dead at the 2 award the 2.

Anorak

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Re: Out/In/Out
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 08:37:42 PM »
I have no problems submitting something for 2012 to have text to agree with the given interpretation.

It would be helpful. I think a lot of the time "interpretations" are made up based on what the interpreter thinks the rule should be, rather than what it is.