Author Topic: 40 Second Play Clock  (Read 13209 times)

Offline Curious

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40 Second Play Clock
« on: July 27, 2016, 03:21:18 PM »
A surprise hit us in Michigan the other day.  From a State Association loathe to "experiment" with new rules or mechanics, we have suddenly advised that a 40 second play clock may be used with the agreement of both teams or a league agreement.  Accompanying the announcement on the State website was an instruction sheet covering 14 separate situations where the 40 second clock is superseded by the 25 second RFP.

So, out of curiosity, how many other states (other than Texas or Mass) use the 40 second clock; and what pitfalls have you seen, if any, from its use?  How has it been received by officials, coaches and/or fans?

Offline pjsaul

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2016, 06:05:00 PM »
Can you post the sheet from the state? I tried to look for it but couldn't find it.

A 40 second clock simply seems unnecessary, along the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line - it is just to be more like NCAA... for the sole purpose of being more like NCAA?

Questions: is this experiment limited to schools with visible play clocks?

Offline TxSkyBolt

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40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2016, 08:38:55 PM »
Coaches get consistency with a 40 second clock. No worrying about a Slow or Fast R blowing a 25 second clock RFP.  Works well.


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Offline prab

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2016, 09:01:59 PM »
And the makers of Redi-Ref (and its progeny) were well pleased.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2016, 08:35:23 AM »
I've worked with a 40 second play clock a couple dozen times. It can take some getting used to, but by and large it helps with the pace of the game and allows for consistency between crews. The major thing it does "better" is that it allows for better implementation of the "match up" rule so that the offense can't gain too large of an advantage with substitution process.

I wouldn't say it's something the NFHS has or needs to do. It's not a pressing issue and I wouldn't say the 40 is "better", just different.

Offline pjsaul

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2016, 09:24:16 AM »
Coaches get consistency with a 40 second clock. No worrying about a Slow or Fast R blowing a 25 second clock RFP.  Works well.

That's fair. I just have never had a coach ever complain about play clock timing so it strikes me as odd - but I could see it being an issue for very talented no-huddle teams.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2016, 10:01:54 AM »
I'm not in favor of the 40 sec. clock because :
 (1) NO high school fields in Maine have a visible play clock;
 (2) worked the game clock at a NCAA school both pre & post 40 sec clock;
    (a) added another body+ $$ to press box -before play clock kept on field;
    (b) reduced # of DOG fouls;
    (c) reduced # of plays needed to run out the clock;
    (d) added the need for $$$ 2 new field play clocks $$$$.
 (4) In NCAA w/7-8 officials & ball boys shagging dead ball periods run smoothly. IN NFHS w/4-5 officials & ball boys playing Pokeman and watching their girl friends, probably not.

IMHO, the hassle of adding this with the hopeful result of improving the pace of the game, falls only a tad short of flip-flopping the wing officials to add congeniality to the sidelines.

IMHO, I once felt the BoSox would win the World Series and Brady would start in games 1-4. I'm not always right but I'm surprised that Michigan is experimenting with this.

Offline Curious

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2016, 11:11:18 AM »
I'm not in favor of the 40 sec. clock because :
 (1) NO high school fields in Maine have a visible play clock;
 (2) worked the game clock at a NCAA school both pre & post 40 sec clock;
    (a) added another body+ $$ to press box -before play clock kept on field;
    (b) reduced # of DOG fouls;
    (c) reduced # of plays needed to run out the clock;
    (d) added the need for $$$ 2 new field play clocks $$$$.
 (4) In NCAA w/7-8 officials & ball boys shagging dead ball periods run smoothly. IN NFHS w/4-5 officials & ball boys playing Pokeman and watching their girl friends, probably not.

IMHO, the hassle of adding this with the hopeful result of improving the pace of the game, falls only a tad short of flip-flopping the wing officials to add congeniality to the sidelines.

IMHO, I once felt the BoSox would win the World Series and Brady would start in games 1-4. I'm not always right but I'm surprised that Michigan is experimenting with this.

I couldn't agree more with Ralph or with SouthGARef's comment about the change NOT being needed.

To pjsaul, the "sheet" from the MHSAA is too long to post here; but, even without a log-in ID, you can find it on the Football page of the MHSAA web-site: www.mhsaa.com


Offline Rulesman

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2016, 08:13:28 PM »
I'm not in favor of the 40 sec. clock because :
 (1) NO high school fields in Maine have a visible play clock;
 (2) worked the game clock at a NCAA school both pre & post 40 sec clock;
    (a) added another body+ $$ to press box -before play clock kept on field;
    (b) reduced # of DOG fouls;
    (c) reduced # of plays needed to run out the clock;
    (d) added the need for $$$ 2 new field play clocks $$$$.
 (4) In NCAA w/7-8 officials & ball boys shagging dead ball periods run smoothly. IN NFHS w/4-5 officials & ball boys playing Pokeman and watching their girl friends, probably not.

IMHO, the hassle of adding this with the hopeful result of improving the pace of the game, falls only a tad short of flip-flopping the wing officials to add congeniality to the sidelines.

IMHO, I once felt the BoSox would win the World Series and Brady would start in games 1-4. I'm not always right but I'm surprised that Michigan is experimenting with this.
The added $$$ of play clocks should be a non-issue. Every town has a local merchant who would be more than willing to fund these for the advertising. Every football-playing school in Arkansas has visible play clocks, and I'd venture to say almost all were funded by a third-party sponsor.

Beyond that, no, a 40/25 clock is not something needed in high school football... unless you are in Texas or Massachusetts.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2016, 09:42:39 PM »
The added $$$ of play clocks should be a non-issue. Every town has a local merchant who would be more than willing to fund these for the advertising.
Having been on the end that searches for sponsors, I can tell you this isn't close to true.  Some places will be able to do this, many, many won't, particularly for low income, inner city schools.  Unfortunately, no one is rushing to put money into those schools.

But I agree, this is a solution looking for a problem.  In 17 years, I can recall ONE crew that rushed the RFP (there were 8 DOG flags in a playoff game, it was ridiculous).  Other than that one game, we have never had a problem with pace of play.

Offline Welpe

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40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2016, 03:33:48 AM »
I was in Texas when the 40 second clock was instituted and I loved it for the consistency and pacing it provided the game.

Even in subvarsity games without a visible play clock, things ran just fine. It takes time to adjust but our chapter also did a great job in helping to educate coaches and clock operators in getting ready for the change.

Having good ball rotation helps...and it can be done with 5 officials...but it's not mandatory. There may be times when you have to reset the clock because you can't run down the ball quickly enough but those were rare.

Offline edtude

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2016, 01:06:37 PM »
Just don't understand the need. The only complaint we get from coaches is that we are taking too long to get the ball ready for play. More teams are going up tempo a 40 second play clock would be a useless change to the rules in our area.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2016, 03:38:47 PM »
Just don't understand the need. The only complaint we get from coaches is that we are taking too long to get the ball ready for play. More teams are going up tempo a 40 second play clock would be a useless change to the rules in our area.
If you get complaints from coaches that you're taking too long to blow the RFP then the 40 second clock is exactly what you need. Teams can snap at will (barring subs) once the ball is placed on the ground. No waiting for slow Referees.


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Offline Rulesman

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2016, 08:14:14 PM »
If you get complaints from coaches that you're taking too long to blow the RFP then the 40 second clock is exactly what you need. Teams can snap at will (barring subs) once the ball is placed on the ground. No waiting for slow Referees.


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Fed doesn't have a rule covering the defense being allowed to match up.
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Offline Magician

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2016, 08:03:23 AM »
Indiana is another experimental state (Colorado is the other). I am very excited about because I agree it provides a much more consistent pace. Even a good crew is probably going to vary 5-8 seconds between dead and the end of ready for play. It won't (or shouldn't) affect the front end of the ball being ready. It's not like the umpire is going to put the ball down immediately and step away from the ball when his fellow officials aren't ready to go. This will still be 10-15 seconds on average from dead to the ball actually being ready.

The big advantage will be pace on the other end. We have heard of crews here that would either be really slow in getting the ball ready or would hold the ready until the offense was ready. This drove coaches nuts when they were playing teams that liked to go slow and eat clock. I heard from coaches saying the crew would allow the QB to go to the sideline, get the play from the coach, return to the huddle, call the play, break the huddle, and then the R would blow the ready for play. There were times where the time between dead and end of play clock would be 90 seconds. With 160 games each week and no direct oversight of the crews, there was no way to police this across the board. The 40-second play clock will make that a non-issue. The amount of time each team has will be consistent week to week.

Almost all our schools have visible play clocks. One drawback for us is there is no mercy rule in Indiana so there is no way to delay the RFP to burn clock in a late blowout. There will be some adjusting for play clock operators (usually volunteers hired by the school), but I think this should be easier. Start the 40 when the play ends and not worry about looking for the R to start the play clock. It's an experiment. People will adjust, and I think ultimately most people will like it. The fans won't notice.

Offline ref4e

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2016, 12:22:00 PM »
If the visible play clock goes out, which official keeps the 40 second count:    5-man crew?    4-man?

Offline KWH

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2016, 03:17:48 PM »
Assuming the 40-Second play clock goes favorably in Michigan, Indiana, and Colorado I would think the NFHS would be faced with a dilemma.
25-Second Play Clocks simply supplement the existing Rule.
40-Second Play Clocks would require changes to the Rules.

Since 25-Second play clocks are not even required equipment, I would not expect to see any rules changes to support the use of 40-Second play clocks.
Additionally, any attempts to change, modify, or replace the 25-Second rule (3-6-2d) to include a 40-second method, BEFORE requiring visible play clocks will not even last half as long as NEW COKE.

Why?
I'[ll take one state for example. Oregon
In Oregon of the 236 High Schools that participate in NFHS High School football exactly ZERO will have visible game clocks on their fields in 2016.
 Ready-Ref offers a 2 clock, 3, Controller, 2 rolling cart system for $8,750.00
Assuming you could make a mass purchase and go the price down to $6000.00 per site that is:
$1,416,000.00 with a price break or $2,065,000.00 without a break.
I don't see the town barber, or even the local mortuary stepping up to pay that bill.

While we have one possible equipment manufacturer in Oregon that would come to mind, currently there business stays are pretty busy making shoes, sox, calf bands, gun bands, head bands, sweat bands, off the wall Jerseys with matching pants.
Besides even if they did step up, it is likely the word NIKE would be so big,
the Back Judge would have trouple seeing the digits...

Not likely to happen boys, you would have better odds supporting the triumphant return of NEW COKE!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 03:19:43 PM by KWH »

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2016, 05:50:33 PM »
Assuming the 40-Second play clock goes favorably in Michigan, Indiana, and Colorado I would think the NFHS would be faced with a dilemma.
25-Second Play Clocks simply supplement the existing Rule.
40-Second Play Clocks would require changes to the Rules.

Since 25-Second play clocks are not even required equipment, I would not expect to see any rules changes to support the use of 40-Second play clocks.
Additionally, any attempts to change, modify, or replace the 25-Second rule (3-6-2d) to include a 40-second method, BEFORE requiring visible play clocks will not even last half as long as NEW COKE.

Why?
I'[ll take one state for example. Oregon
In Oregon of the 236 High Schools that participate in NFHS High School football exactly ZERO will have visible game clocks on their fields in 2016.
 Ready-Ref offers a 2 clock, 3, Controller, 2 rolling cart system for $8,750.00
Assuming you could make a mass purchase and go the price down to $6000.00 per site that is:
$1,416,000.00 with a price break or $2,065,000.00 without a break.
I don't see the town barber, or even the local mortuary stepping up to pay that bill.

While we have one possible equipment manufacturer in Oregon that would come to mind, currently there business stays are pretty busy making shoes, sox, calf bands, gun bands, head bands, sweat bands, off the wall Jerseys with matching pants.
Besides even if they did step up, it is likely the word NIKE would be so big,
the Back Judge would have trouple seeing the digits...

Not likely to happen boys, you would have better odds supporting the triumphant return of NEW COKE!

Can practically guarantee GA would be opposed. Would guess only about 10% of the schools down here have a visible play clock.

This is a solution looking for a problem. The 25 second play clock is fine.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2016, 08:18:58 PM »
It's really surprising to hear that so few schools have a visible play clock.  I can't remember the last time I was at a HS stadium here in Texas without one.  From the smallest schools to,the largest.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2016, 09:12:22 PM »
Sounds like the same old, same old.  The reality is that some things that work well with young adults and seasoned professionals, don't fit nearly as well, or are as necessary with Interscholastic, and younger athletes.

Offline stevegarbs

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40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2016, 07:49:29 AM »
It's really surprising to hear that so few schools have a visible play clock.  I can't remember the last time I was at a HS stadium here in Texas without one.  From the smallest schools to,the largest.


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I think by definition that Texas HS football is an outlier in all of these questions or surveys!

FWIW on-field play clocks are a rarity in the Chicago area. In a 9-week regular season we may work 1 or 2 games with them, and I am on a crew that works games throughout the entire area. Keep in mind many schools still book only 2 officials for freshman B games- they can't afford the clocks.


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Offline bossman72

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2016, 07:59:31 AM »
Assuming the 40-Second play clock goes favorably in Michigan, Indiana, and Colorado I would think the NFHS would be faced with a dilemma.
25-Second Play Clocks simply supplement the existing Rule.
40-Second Play Clocks would require changes to the Rules.

Since 25-Second play clocks are not even required equipment, I would not expect to see any rules changes to support the use of 40-Second play clocks.
Additionally, any attempts to change, modify, or replace the 25-Second rule (3-6-2d) to include a 40-second method, BEFORE requiring visible play clocks will not even last half as long as NEW COKE.

Why?
I'[ll take one state for example. Oregon
In Oregon of the 236 High Schools that participate in NFHS High School football exactly ZERO will have visible game clocks on their fields in 2016.
 Ready-Ref offers a 2 clock, 3, Controller, 2 rolling cart system for $8,750.00
Assuming you could make a mass purchase and go the price down to $6000.00 per site that is:
$1,416,000.00 with a price break or $2,065,000.00 without a break.
I don't see the town barber, or even the local mortuary stepping up to pay that bill.

While we have one possible equipment manufacturer in Oregon that would come to mind, currently there business stays are pretty busy making shoes, sox, calf bands, gun bands, head bands, sweat bands, off the wall Jerseys with matching pants.
Besides even if they did step up, it is likely the word NIKE would be so big,
the Back Judge would have trouple seeing the digits...

Not likely to happen boys, you would have better odds supporting the triumphant return of NEW COKE!

I sound like a broken record.

Again,

The 40/25 clock DOES NOT require or NEED visible play clocks.

Our friends that have worked without them regularly say the game goes just fine without.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 09:59:28 AM »
It's really surprising to hear that so few schools have a visible play clock.  I can't remember the last time I was at a HS stadium here in Texas without one.  From the smallest schools to,the largest.


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What ya'all call a stadium, we call a pasture..ayuh, 'spect it would be nice to have a play clock on our pastures as long as a roaming bull didn't decide to rut it with his horns. :)

Offline KWH

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2016, 01:15:46 PM »
I sound like a broken record.

Again,

The 40/25 clock DOES NOT require or NEED visible play clocks.

Our friends that have worked without them regularly say the game goes just fine without.

Certainly you COULD work a 40/25 game without a visible play clock!
Just as certainly you COULD work a game without goal posts! Or, 
You COULD work a game without any lines on an un-mowed field with 12 inch high grass! Or,
You COULD work a game with both teams wearing Blue Jerseys and Blue Pants.

However, I would not recommend doing any of those four examples!

I may sound like a broken record but working 40/25 NFHS football would be fine WITH visible game clocks.
However, without visible clocks, many believe it would just add an additional layer of confusion to coaches, players, fans, and officials.

Additionally, while this might be a great rule change for Daktronics, Ready-Ref, and FairPlay, we have many back judges who have trouble with a non-visible 25-clock.

Hopefully, the experimental states will work non-visible 40/25 contests and will be able to provide GOOD data to either support or not support this continual debate. 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 01:57:13 PM »
I sound like a broken record.

Again,

The 40/25 clock DOES NOT require or NEED visible play clocks.

Our friends that have worked without them regularly say the game goes just fine without.

Let me fix that for you:

I sound like a broken record.

Again,

The 40/25 clock DOES IS NOT required or NEEDED