Author Topic: 40 Second Play Clock  (Read 13684 times)

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2016, 02:05:27 PM »
I agree.  If they never go away from the regular 25, I'm good with that.

But, I just whole heartedly disagree that you NEED visible play clocks to run 40/25.  They work it just fine without over in Europe.  We've had several of our Europe friends comment that they have no issues.

In the business world, the visible play clock would be referred to as a "nice-to-have", not a "requirement".

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2735
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2016, 02:43:33 PM »
Certainly you COULD work a 40/25 game without a visible play clock!
Just as certainly you COULD work a game without goal posts! Or, 
You COULD work a game without any lines on an un-mowed field with 12 inch high grass! Or,
You COULD work a game with both teams wearing Blue Jerseys and Blue Pants.

However, I would not recommend doing any of those four examples!

Well, I personally mostly work 40/25 games without a visible play clock (and with the game level comparable to US high school), so I guess I do have some experience. Working the 40/25 second clock on the field is much easier for everybody than working with the old 25 second clock. Strangely teams seem to snap the ball at around the 10s mark, while in the past with the 25s clock the snap was at around 5s. I rarely (as R who keeps the 40/25 when it is not visible) need to verbalize any warnings to the offense.

I would fight hard to keep the 40/25 clock, should NCAA (or IFAF, in my case) decide to remove them. Best thing since sliced bread.

Unless you have tried it, comparing it to any other condition is moot.

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +329/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2016, 05:19:36 PM »
A-MEN!
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2016, 05:39:33 PM »
Let me fix that for you:

I sound like a broken record.

Again,

The 40/25 clock DOES IS NOT required or NEEDED

A-Men to that coach!
That pretty much sums it up!

One additional clarification,
Unless I am mistaken, This is a thread regarding a NFHS experiment in several NFHS states on a WebPage which is labeled National Federation Discussion.
Information from Texas (which use NCAA Rules with a few exceptions), AND,
Information from IAFA (which use NCAA Rules with a few exceptions) while sometimes interesting, is not really applicable to an NFHS Rules discussion. 

« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 06:05:04 PM by KWH »

Offline Welpe

  • *
  • Posts: 1856
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-11
40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2016, 01:34:03 AM »
It's really surprising to hear that so few schools have a visible play clock.  I can't remember the last time I was at a HS stadium here in Texas without one.  From the smallest schools to,the largest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's been a switch working football here without one. Even the tiny schools in Texas seemed to have a play clock.

That said, I'll say this again. There really is no need for a visible play clock to run the 40 second clock. I worked plenty of subvarsity games without one while keeping a 40 second clock as a Referee. My crew also had a couple of games where the play clock stopped working and the B kept it just fine.

Lots of traditionalism going on here in resisting even wanting to try a way to improve the consistency, tempo and flow of the game. But also not surprising.

It's easy to be dismissive of Texas in this case but I'm here to tell you, as an official that worked high school ball in Texas (before and with the 40 sec clock) and now one that works NFHS in CA, it is my educated opinion that the 40 second clock at the high school level is a good improvement.

Football may be taken more seriously in Texas but beyond the rules differences, which are on the whole, inconsequential when it comes to the actual quality of the game, this is a wholly valid comparison. It's still high school football.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 01:42:03 AM by Welpe »

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2215
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2016, 08:57:44 AM »
I've worked two games for a college club team (using basically NCAA rules), and other than having to remember to use my watch instead of my 25-second ReadyRef, didn't find a problem. While I'd hate to have to drop another 70 bucks on a new ReadyRef, I'll enforce whatever the rule is either way.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2016, 09:53:44 AM »
Unless I am mistaken, This is a thread regarding a NFHS experiment in several NFHS states on a WebPage which is labeled National Federation Discussion.
Information from Texas (which use NCAA Rules with a few exceptions), AND,
Information from IAFA (which use NCAA Rules with a few exceptions) while sometimes interesting, is not really applicable to an NFHS Rules discussion. 

So Kalle provides legitimate real-world experience with the 40/25 using no visible clocks and KWH is over here like...


Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Did you attend TRUMP University?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2016, 01:58:13 PM »
BOSSMAN -

Thank you for your extremely professional post.

Certainly one could work with non-visible 40/25 play clocks.  I have done it. We do it in Semi-Pro and JC ball when there is no clock. Just as certain, a visible play clock is preferred by most.

However, since the vast number of NFHS member states have no visible play clock on their fields, the odds of convincing the NFHS Rules Committee to switch from non-visible 25 play clocks to non-visible 40/25 play clock are worse than the odds of a successful triumphant return of NEW COKE.

Hopefully the experimental NFHS states will provide some good information. 

Just stating my opinion sir!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 04:27:06 PM by KWH »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2735
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: Did you attend TRUMP University?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2016, 02:58:08 AM »
Hopefully the experimental NFHS states will provide some good information. 

And I hope that the experiment is used both on fields with and without a visible play clock, as running the experiment only on fields with a visible play clock might work for some states but not all.

Offline Eastshire

  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-2
Re: Did you attend TRUMP University?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2016, 06:38:49 AM »
However, since the vast number of NFHS member states have no visible play clock on their fields, the odds of convincing the NFHS Rules Committee to switch from non-visible 25 play clocks to non-visible 40/25 play clock are worse than the odds of a successful triumphant return of NEW COKE.

You lose me here. You seem to be saying they use non-visible play clocks so they won't agree to using non-visible play clocks. Whether there are visible play clocks or not doesn't really factor into what number should be on them and when they should start. It's just an irrelevant excuse being used to avoid a real discussion.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2016, 06:42:43 AM »
In general, I couldn't care less if you use 40/25 or just 25.  Using 40/25 isn't a bad thing, but I don't think it adds anything or solves a major problem.  In 17 years, I have had ONE crew that had a significant pace of play problem.  Otherwise, all of them are within a reasonable range.

But here's where doing it without having play clocks does make a difference.  We will sometimes (often) try to bleed the clock.  On fields without play clocks, I stand next to our play caller (coach) with a stopwatch and let him know when we are down to a set point on the play clock, be it 10 or 15 seconds, whichever mode we are using.  He then drops his hand and the QB can proceed.  My watch is accurate because I watch the R for the RFP.

If we go to 40/25, I don't know when the FJ starts his 40 second count.  I know it's supposed to be as soon as the previous play is whistled dead.  But I also know from NCAA games that there is sometimes a delay in starting that clock, and that's when it's being done by a timer that is off the field.  If the FJ is involved with the end of the play, breaking up players, retrieving a ball, etc, he may not get that clock started as soon as the play ends.  Now, I don't know when he has started it, and we can't effectively bleed the clock.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2735
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2016, 07:00:20 AM »
If the FJ is involved with the end of the play, breaking up players, retrieving a ball, etc, he may not get that clock started as soon as the play ends.  Now, I don't know when he has started it, and we can't effectively bleed the clock.

Could you not ask the FJ to give you a signal at the 20 second mark?


Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2016, 09:32:30 AM »
If the FJ is involved with the end of the play, breaking up players, retrieving a ball, etc, he may not get that clock started as soon as the play ends.  Now, I don't know when he has started it, and we can't effectively bleed the clock.

Usually, they have a mechanic for when the play clock gets close to expiring.  Some states have a signal by the FJ at 10 seconds and 5 seconds (or chops like in Basketball).  PA has one signal at 5 seconds.

You can call your play and have the team line up on the ball.  When the FJ raises his hand, snap the ball.  Easy.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2016, 09:34:26 AM »
It's just an irrelevant excuse being used to avoid a real discussion.

This is basically what I'm getting at.

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 267
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-16
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2016, 09:51:38 AM »
This is a solution looking for a problem.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2016, 11:18:13 AM »
Usually, they have a mechanic for when the play clock gets close to expiring.  Some states have a signal by the FJ at 10 seconds and 5 seconds (or chops like in Basketball).  PA has one signal at 5 seconds.

You can call your play and have the team line up on the ball.  When the FJ raises his hand, snap the ball.  Easy.

Could you not ask the FJ to give you a signal at the 20 second mark?

Georgia does not have a mechanic where there is a signal from the FJ, either with or without play clocks.  That's why we keep a stopwatch on the sideline.

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2016, 11:27:03 AM »
This is a solution looking for a problem.

A-Men

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2660
  • FAN REACTION: +325/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2016, 11:41:47 AM »
Ben Franklin was a pretty smart dude....he got his face on the $100 bill....when he had a decision to make, he used to take a blank paper, draw a line down the middle, write all the ++++ things he could think of on one side and all the ----- things on the other......

+++++                                      -------------
                                                                 
I
   IMPROVES THE PACE OF THE GAME             TAKES AN UNCOMPLICATED RULE
                                                                                       (YA' GOT :25 FROM RFP) AND COMPLICATES
                                                                                       RETREAVING THE BALL IS EASIER WHEN :
                                                                                        YOU HAVE 7-8 OFFICIALS
                                                                                         2 BALLBOYS ON EACH SIDELINE
                                                                                         BALLBOYS WATCHING THE GAME
                                                                                          FEWER INCOMPLETE PASSES
                                                                                       COMMUNICATING TO SIDELINES W/O
                                                                                       VISABLE CLOCK


                                WHO WISHES TO ADD TO EITHER SIDE ????
                                                                                         
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 11:43:57 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2735
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2016, 11:56:49 AM »
Georgia does not have a mechanic where there is a signal from the FJ, either with or without play clocks.  That's why we keep a stopwatch on the sideline.

You have some weird mechanics down there... what's the point of the FJ keeping the count to himself?

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2016, 11:57:16 AM »
And to make Ralph's chart worse, I would argue that it will only help the pace of play ON OCCASION.  In 17 years, I remember exactly ONE game where we had a problem with the pace of the game.  99+% of the time, it's a non-issue.

Rarely do we (or our opponents) have DOG penalties unless we have screwed up substitutions or gotten plays in late.  Rarely (or never) are we standing at the line waiting for the RFP to be blown.  Sure some crews are a little faster, some are a little slower, but the variance just isn't that great, and with that one exception, is certainly within a reasonable range.

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2215
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2016, 01:13:02 PM »
You have some weird mechanics down there... what's the point of the FJ keeping the count to himself?

They're not alone.  I've been working downfield more, and if a coach asks me to let him know when we get close to delay, I'll do it, but otherwise, the only signal I give is blowing the whistle and throwing the flag.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2016, 03:31:05 PM »
Georgia does not have a mechanic where there is a signal from the FJ, either with or without play clocks.  That's why we keep a stopwatch on the sideline.

If I remember correctly, you're pretty buddy-buddy with some of the officiating higher-ups in Georgia.  Maybe you should propose this mechanic.  How else will teams know when the play clock expires?

If anybody has an NFHS mechanics book, is it not an NFHS mechanic?

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2016, 03:32:06 PM »
Ben Franklin was a pretty smart dude....he got his face on the $100 bill....when he had a decision to make, he used to take a blank paper, draw a line down the middle, write all the ++++ things he could think of on one side and all the ----- things on the other......

+++++                                      -------------
                                                                 
I
   IMPROVES THE PACE OF THE GAME             TAKES AN UNCOMPLICATED RULE
                                                                                       (YA' GOT :25 FROM RFP) AND COMPLICATES
                                                                                       RETREAVING THE BALL IS EASIER WHEN :
                                                                                        YOU HAVE 7-8 OFFICIALS
                                                                                         2 BALLBOYS ON EACH SIDELINE
                                                                                         BALLBOYS WATCHING THE GAME
                                                                                          FEWER INCOMPLETE PASSES
                                                                                       COMMUNICATING TO SIDELINES W/O
                                                                                       VISABLE CLOCK


                                WHO WISHES TO ADD TO EITHER SIDE ????
                                                                                         

Ralph, I can't tell which side is which!

Also, what does ball rotation have to do with this?

Offline ALStripes17

  • *
  • Posts: 224
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-11
  • Be invisible
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2016, 03:34:02 PM »


How else will teams know when the play clock expires?

 ^flag

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

"I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me - all I ask is that you respect me as a human being"

-Unknown-

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2016, 05:19:17 PM »
If I remember correctly, you're pretty buddy-buddy with some of the officiating higher-ups in Georgia.  Maybe you should propose this mechanic.  How else will teams know when the play clock expires?

If anybody has an NFHS mechanics book, is it not an NFHS mechanic?
Yes, it's a NFHS mechanic.  Georgia does not use the NFHS Mechanics manual, they have their own:

http://www.ghsa.net/sites/default/files/documents/football/2016_GHSA_Football_Officials_Manual.pdf

How do we know? When the flag flies and the whistle blows.  It's a big reason we added play clocks to our home field.  But I would bet it's no more than 25% of fields that have them.  SouthGARef says it's as low as 10%, and he could well be right.