Author Topic: 40 Second Play Clock  (Read 14275 times)

Offline RMR

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2016, 09:35:17 PM »
It's really surprising to hear that so few schools have a visible play clock.  I can't remember the last time I was at a HS stadium here in Texas without one.  From the smallest schools to,the largest.


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Same in Louisiana, I can't remember the last time I was on a stadium with no play clock.
"Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong."

Offline prab

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2016, 10:02:45 PM »
I have been licensed in Wisconsin since 1992 and have NEVER seen a visible play clock.  Back Judge keeps the 25 second play clock and visibly counts down the last 5 seconds.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2016, 08:42:22 AM »
My association services one school that has a visible play clock. It's run by someone from the school, not one of our officials.

Offline KWH

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To go 40 or stay 25? That is the question!
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2016, 11:14:21 AM »
You lose me here. You seem to be saying they use non-visible play clocks so they won't agree to using non-visible play clocks. Whether there are visible play clocks or not doesn't really factor into what number should be on them and when they should start. It's just an irrelevant excuse being used to avoid a real discussion.

All I am saying is:
1- Currently Play Clocks are not installed on the vast majority of NFHS fields.
2- The likelihood of the NFHS ever requiring Play clocks is little to none.
3- 25 second clock is from the time of the Ready-For-Play WHISTLE. (Everypne understands that)
4- 40 second clock starts (Roughly) from the whistle of the previous play but RFP is when ball is placed and their is no whistle, unless their is an administrative stoppage and then we go back to the 25 play clock.
5- I will not disagree that a 40 second play clock, (when visible)  is more consistent.
6- I am saying that without visible clocks, the 25 second clock works just fine and is very straightforward.
7 -Since the current system is not broken and is understood,  Why does it need to be fixed or replaced?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 11:25:20 AM by KWH »

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2016, 11:54:45 AM »
Yes, it's a NFHS mechanic.  Georgia does not use the NFHS Mechanics manual, they have their own:

http://www.ghsa.net/sites/default/files/documents/football/2016_GHSA_Football_Officials_Manual.pdf

How do we know? When the flag flies and the whistle blows.  It's a big reason we added play clocks to our home field.  But I would bet it's no more than 25% of fields that have them.  SouthGARef says it's as low as 10%, and he could well be right.

In my association we cover somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 schools. I believe four have play clocks. That's 20% but I would assume up in the Atlanta area there are probably more and in South GA there are probably less. 20-25% is probably accurate.

And GA mandates that if the play clock is used it must be operated by a licensed official. Some schools (I believe AB's school does this) have a control piece that the on-field FJ can wear to operate the play clock but all the schools in my area have to assign an 8th official to run the play clock. That's another $50+ per game. And I believe it's another reason why GA would be steadfastly against this rule change.

Georgia's been emphasizing pace of play over the last couple of years. The goal is to have the ball marked ready for play in 12-15 seconds. I can speak for myself (we don't do the crew system), but I'm probably the fastest R in my association and I routinely mark it ready within that 12 second mark. Some crews are slower, but I don't think it's a major problem of being too slow.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 11:59:40 AM by SouthGARef »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2016, 11:56:06 AM »
Ralph, I can't tell which side is which!

Also, what does ball rotation have to do with this?
Sorry, Bossman, my lack of computer skills made it come out as such. My apologizes to the forum and Ben Franklin.
At the NCAA level, when a pass falls incomplete ONE of the ball boys flips a ball to the wing or deep wing and retrieves the incomplete pass. At the NFHS level, rarely do we have deep wings and rarely do we have more than one ball boy and rarely is the ball playing more attention to the game than his girl making eyes at Bubba.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2016, 12:21:25 PM »
At the NCAA level, when a pass falls incomplete ONE of the ball boys flips a ball to the wing or deep wing and retrieves the incomplete pass. At the NFHS level, rarely do we have deep wings and rarely do we have more than one ball boy and rarely is the ball playing more attention to the game than his girl making eyes at Bubba.
Ralph, come try working a game where football matters!

We have two ball boys per team.  At least one of them mirrors the deep wing at all times.  Pass is incomplete, they turn to the sideline, and they get a ball.  It's the reason we can rotate balls on virtually every play.  Unless it was a run that ended inside the hashes, a new ball is on it's way to the U before the players unpile.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2016, 03:07:07 PM »
We usually work (in the city) with 7.  On a dry night, a running play that ends up in the middle of the field, or in the side zone opposite a team's bench, we'll use the same ball. If it's in the middle, the U will set up the ball off the wing's spots (or occasionally the B, if it's a long play; he'll then cover the ball until the U gets there). A play the ends in the side zone nearest a team's bench, the short wing will spot the ball on his foot; the deep wing will rotate a ball in to the U, and the H or L will then toss the ball on their foot off once the U has taken the spot.

On a long pass that falls incomplete, the short wing takes a new ball from the ball boy, while the deep wings run it down and rotate it off. (Unless it's a long incomplete pass out of bounds on the offense's side of the field, in which case I'm not worrying about it - if they want a clean ball after the next play, someone needs to get it back to the ball boy.)

On a rainy night, or a night with a wet/muddy/dewy field, we'll rotate a ball in as much as we can, even from the fare side of the field, at the U's judgment.

Out in the country where we work 5 man, we can usually only rotate a ball in if it ends in the side zone of the team on offense.  A long pass incomplete in the middle or far side means we've got to chase it down any way, and without 3 downfield guys to get the ball across the field...

Not sure I'm explaining it well...

« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:08:57 PM by VALJ »

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2016, 06:36:09 PM »
Ralph, come try working a game where football matters!

We have two ball boys per team.  At least one of them mirrors the deep wing at all times.  Pass is incomplete, they turn to the sideline, and they get a ball.  It's the reason we can rotate balls on virtually every play.  Unless it was a run that ended inside the hashes, a new ball is on it's way to the U before the players unpile.

Small caveat, unless the ball is wet - which down here can happen during August due to sweat just as much than because of rain - we typically don't change balls unless it's outside the numbers.

Inside hash - U gets ball, puts it down
Between hash & numbers - U gets ball (with maybe help from deep/R), puts it down
Outside numbers - Ball down on wing's foot, a ball into the U from the deep official
Incomplete - Always a new ball from the wing, old ball out from deeps

As in all things, most important position is the U. The days of the U being the fat guy who can't move are over with. He's gotta be the fastest guy on the crew. R's should never really touch the ball unless a runner flips it to him. He needs to get back in position so as soon as the U drops the ball he can blow the RFP. The Us in my association know that if they hear me say "Drop and go" that as soon as they put the ball down I'm blowing the RFP - this is the usual situation. If they hear "Wait for me" or don't hear anything that means they need to stand over the ball until signaled - usually for a first down or because the incomplete pass ball is bouncing around somewhere.

Had a game two years ago where both teams ran a no-huddle offense. It was me and the fastest U in our association on the crew. I don't know the exact number of snaps in that game, but it had to be close to 200.

I've said all that to say this: Pace of play isn't a play clock problem. It's an officiating problem. We have some advantages in GA (6 man is the major one), but if you put your mind to it the ball can absolutely marked ready within 15 seconds every play. Just takes work.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2016, 07:26:56 AM »
For you guys that have the luxuary  of ball boys that pay attention and replace the balls even on running plays ending in the side zone, I assume  ;) that you apply 3-5-7f apporiately  ;) ::) :P ^talk

 tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 07:34:16 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2016, 07:30:04 AM »
-We use 5 man except in the regional finals and state championships.
-We will bring in a new ball in the side zones, incomplete, and whenever sNiCkErS dang well says he wants one.
-Most ballboys are in la-la land.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2016, 07:56:45 AM »
A lot of ballboys are in la-la land, but I've also found that if we have to keep a damp ball on the field for a play or two, coaches will frequently remedy that problem for us. 

If not, well, we're doing what we can, coach, but unless we get a ball boy paying attention...

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2016, 08:06:22 AM »
I don't particularly like it, but in Alabama the PTB have decreed that ball boys will be allowed on the field.  Many of our schools will change the ball every play, and this presents problems in sounding the RFP in the 12-15 second time frame if the ball boy isn't alert or dawdles in getting the new ball to the U.

However, I recently went back and timed one of my games from last season.  Neither team ever waited on us to sound the RFP.  Neither team ever took more than 40 seconds from the previous whistle to snap the ball.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2016, 08:16:29 AM »
For you guys that have the luxuary  of ball boys that pay attention and replace the balls even on running plays ending in the side zone, I assume  ;) that you apply 3-5-7f apporiately 
Absolutely not!   And proud of it.  :patrioticon:

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2016, 08:51:45 AM »
If the ballboy doesn't answer within two seconds or so of his name being called, just keep the old ball in play. Shouldn't really cause a delay.

Do crews meet with the ball personnel in other states in pregame? We talk with the ball personnel for 10 minutes before each game here in GA and explain exactly what we want from them. Sure, some still fall asleep at the wheel but I wouldn't say it's a major problem.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2016, 10:14:06 AM »
Quote
Do crews meet with the ball personnel in other states in pregame? We talk with the ball personnel for 10 minutes before each game here in GA and explain exactly what we want from them.

Are you the parent of a son?
 hEaDbAnG

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2016, 08:40:13 AM »
Do crews meet with the ball personnel in other states in pregame?

My crew certainly does.  Not for 10 minutes, but we do instruct them.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2016, 12:23:54 PM »
My crew certainly does.  Not for 10 minutes, but we do instruct them.

Ditto.

Offline scrounge

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2016, 12:51:54 PM »
Ditto.

We brief them every time as well....now, whether they listen or just politely wait for the old man to stop talking so they can go back to goofing off, well....you know.

Offline Curious

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2016, 01:05:40 PM »
Do crews meet with the ball personnel in other states in pregame?

Here in Michigan we usually spend 10 minutes trying to FIND A BALL BOY!

Absolutely not!   And proud of it.  :patrioticon:

Hey AB, does this mean you don't do it or don't do it appropriately?

Offline prab

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2016, 01:07:14 PM »
Our ball boys have all been doing it for 30 years and therefore do not require any instructions.  Oh wait, that might be the chain crews and stadium clock operators.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2016, 01:33:19 PM »
Hey AB, does this mean you don't do it or don't do it appropriately?
Means the officials ignore the rule and rotate a new ball in on virtually every play, just as they do in D1 games.

And the ball boys had better be paying attention.  Just ask the last one that didn't rotate in the ball we wanted for 4th down.  The official was the least of his problems. I quickly became his worst nightmare.

Am I surreptitiously telling you we use a "kicking ball"?  You bet.  We have the ball approved before the game, and the only difference is it's actually pumped up to where a game ball should be, not one of these Tom Brady QB balls that are like kicking a sponge.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2016, 02:29:29 PM »
Our ball boys have all been doing it for 30 years and therefore do not require any instructions.  Oh wait, that might be the chain crews and stadium clock operators.
Definitely the chain crew.  LOL
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2016, 02:32:50 PM »

Am I surreptitiously telling you we use a "kicking ball"?  You bet.  We have the ball approved before the game, and the only difference is it's actually pumped up to where a game ball should be, not one of these Tom Brady QB balls that are like kicking a sponge.
Don't tell us your other game balls are presented (and approved) under inflated.  :sTiR:
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 40 Second Play Clock
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2016, 02:46:34 PM »
Don't tell us your other game balls are presented (and approved) under inflated.  :sTiR:
Much to my chagrin, yes.  And in 17 years, ONE crew has rejected them.  We get ten times more questions about the properly inflated ball than the underinflated ones.

I'll bet most officials don't know what a properly inflated ball actually feels like.  If you can put you thumbs on the seam and press it in more than 1/8' of an inch, you are either the Incredible Hulk, or the ball is underinflated.  A properly inflated ball is like a rock.