Author Topic: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)  (Read 6689 times)

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2017, 01:57:20 PM »
Why not kill 2 birds with one stone?  Continue having your wing officials explain the penalty and options to the Coach (if/when he chooses to be involved) while the Referee simultaneously explains them to the Captain.  If (when) should there be a difference in selection, your technology should make resolution really simple, and you'd be complying with the spirit and intent of the rule.

I can't believe what I am about to type but here goes nothing:
I agree with ALF!    pi1eOn
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 01:59:04 PM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2017, 02:28:56 PM »
Great, halfway to being as smart as a broken clock (even if only for 1 day).

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2017, 11:33:50 AM »
Bug -
I understand what you are saying, but by doing such you are completely ignoring the Rules Book.
The radios are a great advancement in officiating, but, and until changed or modified, the Rules Book still requires that the Captains make penalty decisions. (10-1-1)

again, there have been proposals to include the coach in penalty decisions and those proposals have never passed muster.

I don't disagree that your method is worthy of discussion - but  "we've taken the captain completely out of penalty decision making" is complete a disregard of the wording or the spirit of 10-1-1.

For what its worth, Back Judges have gotten me sideways with coaches on more than one occasion.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 12:34:21 PM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
- Dr. Ralph Sweringen - Georgia High School Association

Offline scrounge

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2017, 01:23:51 PM »
Ok, the rules say the captain makes the decision. They also say that the opponent of the scoring team shall designate which team will make the subsequent free kick. Has anyone EVER asked this?

Come on, man...what are we talking about here? I mean, I think it's commendable you are involving the captains so actively like this. The 99.2% rest of use will keep on as we are :)

Offline Chunk571

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2017, 04:28:08 PM »
I am not sure how I feel about the rule change with a QB becoming a defenseless player, when they are just about to throw the ball. 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2017, 06:09:04 PM »
I am not sure how I feel about the rule change with a QB becoming a defenseless player, when they are just about to throw the ball.

The new rule adjustment seems to only describe various situations in which circumstances render a player as potentially "defenseless".  Penalties regarding such (defenseless) players is covered in 9-4-4-I-3 referring to "Illegal helmet-to-helmet contact against a defenseless player", which is the current remedy in place prior to this expanded identification, and is unchanged. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 06:11:13 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2017, 06:12:01 PM »
I would expect some of this will be clarified when the Case Plays are released.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline bossman72

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2017, 07:45:16 AM »
I am not sure how I feel about the rule change with a QB becoming a defenseless player, when they are just about to throw the ball. 

Again, poor job clarifying by the NFHS.  Everybody thinks it's illegal to hit a defenseless player, which is not the case.

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2017, 12:24:22 PM »
I am not sure how I feel about the rule change with a QB becoming a defenseless player, when they are just about to throw the ball.

For clarification,
The "QB" (2-32-3) did NOT just "become" a defenseless player! 
The "Passer" (2-32-11) did NOT just "become" a defenseless player.
See 2016 NFHS Case Book - Pages 77 & 78;  9.4.3 COMMENT - Examples (a) and (c)


The "QB" and "The Passer" have been defenseless players in NFHS since the onset of the term defenseless player,
The only thing New in NFHS for 2017, is a long time Case Book COMMENT has become codified, so existing Rule 2-32-16 will be lengthened to include a list examples of Defenseless Players.
Note that the new list, while slightly rearranged, is essentially the same as the existing list already provided in 9.4.3 COMMENT.

Exception;  Example (j)  A player who receives a blindside block, now requires contact to be initiated with the hands to be a legal blindside block. Any contact against a player receiving a BSB, ie; not initiated with the hands, results in a Personal Foul.

Hope that makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 02:30:30 PM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
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Offline KWH

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Ok, the rules say the captain makes the decision. They also say that the opponent of the scoring team shall designate which team will make the subsequent free kick. Has anyone EVER asked this?
No! I typically don't ask since the Rules Book indicates they "shall designate which team will kick off!" When they choose to "Kick off" they will tell you. Silence, by default, is designating their choice is to have the scoring team kick off.
Yes, I have, over they years, on several occasions, had them "Designate" by notifying an official they choose to "Kick" after being scored upon. Had a coach do it two times in one game just this last season. (Bad part - Just like after a safety, the White Hat gets to do the 100 yard dash.)
(Good Part - It messes with everybody's head who is watching the game on HUDL!)

Come on, man...what are we talking about here? I mean, I think it's commendable you are involving the captains so actively like this. The 99.2% rest of use will keep on as we are :)
As they say in Eastern Kentucky - "Never let that dad-gummed Rules Book get in the way of a good ball game!"  :)
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
- Dr. Ralph Sweringen - Georgia High School Association

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2017, 04:04:58 PM »
I have NEVER, at any age group, had a captain complain about not being consulted on a penalty option.

Where I'm from the captains think their only job is to walk out to the simulated coin toss and find out what option their coach chose at the REAL coin toss. If it's such a bad thing not to include the captain in the penalty process, why is it ok to let the coaches make the choice in the coin toss?

Also, if we are splitting hairs over the wording of the kickoff option, why not split hairs over the captain-consulting. 10-1-1 says the captains are consulted, but doesn't specifically say said captain MUST make the decision. Only that if he does, he can't change his mind.

IMPO, if the coach wants the opportunity to make the decision, I'm giving it to him. It's his job on the line.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2017, 06:13:53 PM »
Where I'm from the captains think their only job is to walk out to the simulated coin toss and find out what option their coach chose at the REAL coin toss. If it's such a bad thing not to include the captain in the penalty process, why is it ok to let the coaches make the choice in the coin toss?

Also, if we are splitting hairs over the wording of the kickoff option, why not split hairs over the captain-consulting. 10-1-1 says the captains are consulted, but doesn't specifically say said captain MUST make the decision. Only that if he does, he can't change his mind.

IMPO, if the coach wants the opportunity to make the decision, I'm giving it to him. It's his job on the line.

Why not do both, it's really easy, all you have to do is put your mind to it.  Nothing wrong, or confusing, about asking the HC before the coin toss, what he wants his Captain to do.  Most often the Captain will remember, and for those few exceptions, just asking him if he's really, REALLY sure might jog his memory.

If you want to see where the Captain's specific responsibilities are spelled out, take a look at 2-32-5,a-c. With just a little thought, you can always help the Coach do his job, without needing to  abandon yours.

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2017, 02:58:40 PM »

Also...why not split hairs over the captain-consulting. 10-1-1 says the captains are consulted, but doesn't specifically say said captain MUST make the decision. Only that if he does, he can't change his mind...

Serious Calhoun???
For what other reason would 10-1-1 direct the Referee to consult a captain for after a foul occurred? Do you really think it is just to ask the captain "Hey Cap' which coach makes the penalty decisions around here?"

In additional to the applicable definition ALF pointed out which is found in 2-32-5b
A captain of a team is a player designated to represent his team during Penalty decisions following a foul.


Have you read 3-5-2a?  ...
When a decision on a penalty is pending, a time out shall not be granted to either team until the captain makes his choice.


Have you had a chance to look at 10-1-2? ...
The captain may accept or decline the penalty.


How about 10-2-4?...
The offended captain may choose
which one shall be administered, or the captain may decline all penalties[/u]

I'm not seeing alot of Grey area or wiggle room in any of those four rules?
I have yet to find anywhere where it directs us to consult with the coach on any penalty decisions.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with everything in the NFHS Rules Book. (This would be yet another example)
But they don't hire us to AGREE with the rules, and they don't hire us to WRITE the rules,  rather,
they simply hire us to ENFORCE the rules as the NFHS has written them!!!

Additionally, YOU would NEVER be placing a coaches job on the line by following the NFHS Rules Book.
YOU could however, in given situations, be placing your job on the line by choosing not to follow the NFHS Rules Book.

..."and that's about all I have to say about that!"

That's my message!   Let the shootings begin!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 11:59:14 AM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
- Dr. Ralph Sweringen - Georgia High School Association

Offline prab

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2017, 04:40:01 PM »
That's my message!   Let the shootings begin!

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you on what the rules say.  However, the fact of the matter is that several posters have hinted at or outright stated that they have in the past and will in the future skirt or ignore these rules.  This subject matter has been discussed in depth over the past few seasons and it seems like no one has convinced anyone else to change their mind.  Maybe it is time to change the conversation to the ages old question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2017, 09:42:18 AM »
Find me in the rulebook where it says "If a holding foul is committed but not egregious and not at the point of attack, the foul should be ignored". It's not there. And everyone now accepts the practice that holding fouls are only called at the point of attack. Because we know it's for the betterment of the game.

The rule book is very important. I know it very well. I also know how to use a little common sense and officiate and practice some good game management. My many years of officiating experience have told me that if I go to a captain and ask him his options on a penalty, he's just going to turn and look at his coach. And if it's something really confusing, now I have to go grab that captain and walk him over close to his sideline and loudly explain it so that the coach can here?

No thanks. I'm eliminating the middle man and going straight to the person that's going to make the decision, anyway. It's less time consuming, leads to less confusion, and it speeds the game up and allows us to get back to football quicker. It's better for the game.

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2017, 12:12:50 PM »

 It's less time consuming, leads to less confusion, and it speeds the game up and allows us to get back to football quicker. It's better for the game.

Geez -  Now if we could only convince the NFHS to change that dad-gummed Rules Book! 
Wouldn't that be an accomplishment?
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
- Dr. Ralph Sweringen - Georgia High School Association

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2017, 12:38:24 PM »
Geez -  Now if we could only convince the NFHS to change that dad-gummed Rules Book! 
Wouldn't that be an accomplishment?
It needs to be changed. The Fed sometimes loses sight of common sense officiating.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2017, 04:04:17 PM »

No thanks. I'm eliminating the middle man and going straight to the person that's going to make the decision, anyway. It's less time consuming, leads to less confusion, and it speeds the game up and allows us to get back to football quicker. It's better for the game.

Let's be honest, whether the Captain makes the decision, the Coach makes the decision or the Captain & the Coach collaborate on the decision, the earth will continue to rotate on it's access.  Referee's are going to do, what they do, but all this nonsense about, "It's less time consuming, leads to less confusion, and it speeds the game up and allows us to get back to football quicker." is absolute HORSE HOCKEY, and doesn't impact "the game", one way or the other.

The rule makers decided, long ago, that Interscholastic Football has some different objectives than either NCAA or NFL, that are worthy of spending a few seconds of extra time attending to.  Those who have decided not to bother with that "student athlete" stuff, have already chosen not to bother with it - and the beat goes on.

Those who understand, and believe there's value in "student athlete" stuff, will likely continue to spend those few seconds respecting that effort - and the beat STILL goes on.  If you don't want to be bothered with it, that's pretty much your choice, to choose to disregard what is a firmly entrenched foundation of what we're supposed to do, at the High School level.

Spectators, Coaches and even most players, most likely, won't know the difference, but you should.

Offline the clown

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2017, 07:53:08 PM »
What I would love to end this debate by having the coaches tell the referee, "My Captains are #11, #25, #56 and #77.  They will make all decisions pertaining to the coin toss and penalty's."  If we stop asking the coaches in our pregame what "He" wants to do then maybe he'll take the time to tell his Captains what he wants them to do.  When a flag is dropped he will pay attention to the preliminary signal and signal his captains his opinion....
One of the reasons this doesn't happen is that we go way beyond the questions of proper equipment and trick plays.  We ask right footed, left footed, right handed, left handed, what do they want to do if the kickoff goes out of bounds?  We tell the coach that we will handle all the simple calls, when this might be a great learning opportunity for the captains.  We tell the coach that we'll look to him for any questionable enforcement's.  Are we speeding up the game by doing this? Yes.  Do I do it? Yes.  What if we all went back to making the captains do there jobs and honor the intent of the rule?  We might have a a few more leaders on the field...  And we might have to pay attention when the teams are warming up which leg is doing the kicking.

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2017, 09:41:08 PM »
It needs to be changed. The Fed sometimes loses sight of common sense officiating.

That is clearly the opinion of some on this particular board. However, unfortunately for them,
That is clearly never been the rule nor the intent issued by the NFHS.
These particular rules and the thought behind them have (to the best of my research) never changed.


As for your thoughts on the NFHS, I completely disagree!
I would however offer, sometimes game officials may lose sight of what level they are officiating! And, 
By doing so, they may just be forgoing common sense!

My 2 cents
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 09:47:14 PM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
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Offline prab

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #95 on: March 20, 2017, 10:12:29 PM »
This subject matter has been discussed in depth over the past few seasons and it seems like no one has convinced anyone else to change their mind.

Q.E.D.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2017, 08:15:31 AM »
A few years ago, using NCAA verbiage, I submitted a proposal to go directly to the coaches on penalty options. It received very little support and my understandings of it's failure was two fold :

 (1) High schools are for learning and developing skills. Involving the captains in decision making is helping develop their leadership skills.

 (2) There isn't a restriction for a coach to verbally assist his captain in making his decision.

I am not and never have been an educator but I understand that position. I always get the names of speaking captains and ask for them by name when looking for a penalty decision. They usually promptly join me and I'll lead them within hearing distance of their coach. It probably takes a few seconds longer then searching out the coach to ask but, IMHO, I feel that it is in the spirit of high school education. IMHO, aprox 75% of the choices are obvious and I only tell the offended captain ,in passing, what is occurring. I fully understand that many of you don't agree with our rule and understand your rationale. I've been on the national rules committee since 1993 and ,with the exception of my failed proposal, cannot recall of it ever being on the docket.

IF TWO MEN AGREED ON EVERYTHING ,ONLY ONE MAN WOULD BE NEEDED!!!

 :sTiR: ^talk ^talk ^talk ^talk :sTiR:
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 08:42:48 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline KWH

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2017, 11:59:19 AM »
I would suggest a possible solution.
Perhaps a version of Ralph's proposal is resubmitted. The proposal would modify all the applicable rules to indicate Captain or Coach with a Rationale that includes among other things: 

* Some Officials prefer dealing directly with the Coach on penalty decisions,

* Some Coaches prefer dealing directly with the Officials on penalty decisions and;

* Some Captains prefer Officials dealing directly with their Coach.

* Tugboat couldn't make a decision to save his own life! (OK maybe not that one)

Possibly include advancements in technology such as wireless headsets on officials making communications with sideline quicker and seamless (as was suggested by Bugolathe earlier in this thread).
If the Committee approves the proposal, the applicable rules are modified and we move on.
Or,
Should the proposal not receive support, I would like to urge the Committee to make Communicating with the Captain on Penalty decisions a Point of Emphasis for 2018.
In other words, provide some background, some expectations, and some clear direction.

Thoughts?
Volunteers to write such a proposal?
Ralph?

« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:45:33 PM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
- Dr. Ralph Sweringen - Georgia High School Association

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2017 NFHS Football Rule Changes (Release Date Feb 22, 2017)
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2017, 01:18:36 PM »
I would suggest a possible solution.
Perhaps a version of Ralph's proposal is resubmitted. The proposal would modify all the applicable rules to indicate Captain or Coach with a Rationale that includes among other things: 

* Some Officials prefer dealing directly with the Coach on penalty decisions,

* Some Coaches prefer dealing directly with the Officials on penalty decisions and;

* Some Captains prefer Officials dealing directly with their Coach.

* Tugboat couldn't make a decision to save his own life! (OK maybe not that one)

Possibly include advancements in technology such as wireless headsets on officials making communications with sideline quicker and seamless (as was suggested by Bugolathe earlier in this thread).
If the Committee approves the proposal, the applicable rules are modified and we move on.
Or,
Should the proposal not receive support, I would like to urge the Committee to make Communicating with the Captain on Penalty decisions a Point of Emphasis for 2018.
In other words, provide some background, some expectations, and some clear direction.

Thoughts?
Volunteers to write such a proposal?
Ralph?

I batted leadoff on this and struck out pi1eOn hEaDbAnG pray:; ^no ^no ^no

We need to find someone to bat second :-\ :-\ deadhorse: tiphat:

 tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl

Offline KWH

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Well - Lets try it again
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2017, 01:33:41 PM »
Ralph -
If you would be so kind as to e-mail me your "batting order" from a few years ago, I can perhaps rearrange the order slightly and hand it to the Umpires. (Of course I would have you and Steve review it first)

Whaddaya think about them lobsters???
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 01:39:53 PM by KWH »
Officials do not often write rules; rather,
Officials enforce rules as they are written.
- Dr. Ralph Sweringen - Georgia High School Association