Brain Puzzlers

[prab]

Here's my theory:

The order that Ralph places the actions in, implies that R2's foul is committed DURING R1's run.  Therefore the basic spot for enforcement should be the end of R1's run at the R 20 (R2's foul is in advance of the end of R1's run) resulting in 1st and 10 for R at the R 10 yard line.

Some of my theories are not widely accepted.

[KWH]

On Page 80 of the 2016 NFHS RULES Book they provide a good reminder to lock into your memory bank for penalty enforcement purposes.
"A loose ball may be part of a running play and should not be confused with a loose-ball play. If a foul were to occur (during a running play) while the ball is loose, the basic spot is the spot where the related run ended, as for any running play."

They use "where the related run ended" or some old timers might say "the end of the related run."
Remember it either way and you will likely save your white hat when he is standing there scratching his head and staring a light standard!

1st and ten for R (now A) at the R (now A) 10 yard line

[bama_stripes]

On Page 80 of the 2016 NFHS RULES Book they provide a good reminder to lock into your memory bank for penalty enforcement purposes.
"A loose ball may be part of a running play and should not be confused with a loose-ball play. If a foul were to occur (during a running play) while the ball is loose, the basic spot is the spot where the related run ended, as for any running play."

Remember -- this doesn't apply when the ball is behind the LOS.

[KWH]

Remember -- this doesn't apply when the ball is behind the LOS.

True enough!
You would be correct bama_stripes.
Your example is one of the loose ball plays described on page 79.
We were discussing penalty enforcement for running plays described on page 79 & 80.

[bama_stripes]

I understand that.  But I don't want to "lock into my memory bank"  a phrase that isn't correct depending on the  location of the loose ball.

I'd much prefer to remember "Behind the line, LBP all the time."

[KWH]

I understand that.  But I don't want to "lock into my memory bank"  a phrase that isn't correct depending on the  location of the loose ball.

I'd much prefer to remember "Behind the line, LBP all the time."

Yes, but you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
Your slogan works great for loose ball plays that occur behind the line.
However, Ralph's play, which we were discussing, was a running play! Therefore the term, "Behind the line, LBP all the time." is not applicable.
Likewise, if during a running play, say for example A throws an Illegal Forward Pass from Behind the line, then the term "Behind the Line, LBP all the time" is not applicable.

Restated, you slogan works great for Loose ball plays behind the line, 
but it would not be applicable on running plays.
That being said, as previously stated,  the NFHS term the basic spot is the spot where the related run ended is ALWAYS applicable to ALL running plays.

[bama_stripes]

Ralph's play is a running play only because it happened beyond the LOS.  If the same play happened behind the LOS, it would be a loose ball play, with previous spot enforcement.

My "memory aid" was meant to help remember how to enforce LBPs behind the line.  If we have a running play, the basic spot is EOR regardless of where the ball was when the foul happened.

[Ralph Damren]

I'll give it a try Ralph.

If the foul occurred while the ball was loose, the basic spot is the end of that run - the R 20.  Penalty enforced half the distance.    if the covering official had a bean bag down to mark that spot.  1st and 10 for R from their 10.

If the foul occurred after R3 recovered, the basic spot (per all-but-one) is R45, so 1st and 10 from the R 30.

Congrats ,FLAHL,  for nailing it. PRAB came in correctly, but an hour later .

In the real world of Mainer football, I jogged towards the LJ  named Jeff ,who had returned from Iraq deployment ( Jeff's tribute was posted on Veterans Day). Possible enforcement spots were dancing through my head :
      (1) IF it occurred BEFORE the kick was fielded = previous spot, rekick from R's 45.
      (2) IF it occurred DURING the first return, but BEFORE  the fumble recovery = end of
           R's related run = R's ball @ R's 10.
      (3) IF it occurred DURING the TD jaunt = all-but-one, R's ball @ R's 30.

Jeff's military focus came into play as I approached him, and he announced : " THE FACEMASK OCCURRED AFTER THE KICK WAS RECOVERED BUT BEFORE THE RUNNER FUMBLED!!"

Both the umpire  and I had bean-bagged the spot of the fumble and the step-off began . A good example of the "WHEN" of the "who-what-when-where" of penalty enforcement. Another "W" came into play as R's coach burned a TO to ask me "WHY" .

 COACH : " That there penalty seams plum long. Ya' sure ya' know what ya' doing?? "
 RESPONSE : " Because the facemask occurred when your initial runner was returned the kick,
                    we treat the enforcement like he hadn't fumbled and measure it from where his
                    run had ended. Make sense??"
 COACH : " AYUH, 'spect you know what ya' talking about."

...AND THE BAND STOPPED PLAYING

[Ralph Damren]

HERE'S ONE THAT I BLEW  , SEE IF YOU CAN KEEP FROM MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE.....

 (1) Ball @ 50, 3rd & 11, A up by 3, 2:00 to go in game;
 (2) QB scrambles back to his 40, is grabbed by facemask -PF- and fumbles;
 (3) B scoops up fumble and gallops to paydirt;
 (4) HL & I have  and beanbags out;
 (5) the TD is called back and.....

 YOU MAKE THE CALL....

    HOPE IT WASN'T THE SAME AS OURS

[SCHSref]

HERE'S ONE THAT I BLEW  , SEE IF YOU CAN KEEP FROM MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE.....

 (1) Ball @ 50, 3rd & 11, A up by 3, 2:00 to go in game;
 (2) QB scrambles back to his 40, is grabbed by facemask -PF- and fumbles;
 (3) B scoops up fumble and gallops to paydirt;
 (4) HL & I have  and beanbags out;
 (5) the TD is called back and.....

 YOU MAKE THE CALL....

    HOPE IT WASN'T THE SAME AS OURS

No need to beanbag any fumble behind the LOS by A, but this is a loose ball play and is enforced from the previous spot.  A has the ball and a first down at the 35 due to a PF FM enforcement from the 50

[Ralph Damren]

No need to beanbag any fumble behind the LOS by A, but this is a loose ball play and is enforced from the previous spot.  A has the ball and a first down at the 35 due to a PF FM enforcement from the 50

You nailed it, SCHSref,  and that may have caused my brain cramp. I told the ump  to start his journey from the beanbags (B's 40) which resulted in 3rd & 6. The football gods were with me that day as A's next play went for a 1st down ,to be followed by running out the clock. It wasn't until the way home that I came to my senses....

FUMBLE BEHIND LOS = LOOSE BALL PLAY
      LOOSE BALL PLAY = PREVIOUS SPOT ENFORCEMENT
         PREVIOUS SPOT ENFORCEMENT = 1ST DOWN FOR A!!!!!

 

I felt bad..I had another adult beverage and didn't feel so bad...I wasn't driving

 

[AlUpstateNY]

No need to beanbag any fumble behind the LOS by A, but this is a loose ball play and is enforced from the previous spot.  A has the ball and a first down at the 35 due to a PF FM enforcement from the 50

The above is ABSOLUTELY, 110% correct, but is the instinctive reaction of bagging a fumble (although behind the LOS is unnecessary) problematic, other than from a finite precision standpoint?  In this case play situation, the resulting error was not caused by the beanbag, rather by an incorrect ruling, and the presence of an inappropriate beanbag should have been totally inconsequential. and ignored.

Beanbags are a tool, reserved and intended for the exclusive use and benefit, for game field officials.  Beanbags have specific, intended purposes and should not be used otherwise, but their application and use is usually instinctive and immediate, and often poses little opportunity for detailed reflection, whereas hesitation, even slight, causing delay, or absence, can create material problems.

Perfection is the ultimate objective, but picking up an unnecessary beanbag seems a lot less, potentially, troublesome than trying to remember where you should be seeing one.

[prab]

Beanbags are a tool, reserved and intended for the exclusive use and benefit, for game field officials.  Beanbags have specific, intended purposes and should not be used otherwise, but their application and use is usually instinctive and immediate, and often poses little opportunity for detailed reflection, whereas hesitation, even slight, causing delay, or absence, can create material problems.

Had the following play occur:

K1 touched K's kickoff prior to it going 10 yards or being touched by R.  I tossed beanbag to mark spot of first touching.  R's coach immediately started yelling that that should be a penalty on K and why hadn't I thrown a flag.  When play ended, I explained to coach R that first touching did not result in a penalty, rather R could have the ball at that spot if it chose to do so and that my beanbag marked the spot.  Coach R replied, Uhh nice beanbag ref.

[Ralph Damren]

It was my brain , not my beanbag, that let me down. I should have taken more time to think about enforcement as this was a regional championship, and the teams deserved that.

In the pre-season coaches meeting, I chatted with the 2 coaches about my miscue. Their responses were...
COACH A : "I don't understand penalty enforcement and figured you did. I didn't argue as I wouldn't have known what to argue about."
COACH B : "I wished you had really goofed up, let the TD stand and penalized us on the try!!"

MORALE OF STORY : Penalty enforcement is , by far, the most complex rule in our book. IMHO, we probably have more rules errors in Rule 10 then in the other 9 rules ,total. Rarely do we here coaches gripe about enforcement errors as they put their faith in our rule knowledge. Let's keep their faith justified.

BEANBAG BEHIND LOS : While I agree that there is no need to BB a fumble behind the LOS and try to discourage it, there are a couple of potential uses of BBing behind/near LOS....

 (1) When QB is sacked, I'll BB forward progress, retrieve ball from QB and flip to U
      who has gone to BB.

 (2) Scrambling QB is near LOS when passing, I'll BB feet of QB then look to see if BB is beyond
      the LOS.

DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE,
      I HAVEN'T AND I WON'T.....

[Ralph Damren]

Had the following play occur:

K1 touched K's kickoff prior to it going 10 yards or being touched by R.  I tossed beanbag to mark spot of first touching.  R's coach immediately started yelling that that should be a penalty on K and why hadn't I thrown a flag.  When play ended, I explained to coach R that first touching did not result in a penalty, rather R could have the ball at that spot if it chose to do so and that my beanbag marked the spot.  Coach R replied, Uhh nice beanbag ref.

The coach must have had a flashback to his daze of a NFL coach where it draws a !

[Bob M.]

I am looking for some good Brain Puzzling plays to use as examples for a class or meetings.  Anything that makes people dig deep into the rule book is a good thing.  Please post them in this thread.  Thanks for your help

REPLY: Here's a good one that should stimulate some discussion:

PLAY: 3rd – 4 from A’s 40. A10 throws a quick pass to wide receiver A88 who catches it at A’s 44. There he is immediately grabbed by the face mask (no twist or pull) but manages to escape. Covering official drops a flag for a 5-yard face mask foul. A88 circles back toward the other side of the field and is hit at A’s 38 where he fumbles. A12 recovers the ball at A’s 35. RULING: ??

[Ralph Damren]

By definition (10-3-1 NOTE) , this would be deemed a loose ball play. Previous spot enforcement, new series for A from A's 45.

[FLAHL]

All of the action prior to the fumble is included in the loose ball play.  Because the foul occurred during a loose ball play, the enforcement spot is the previous spot.  I'm not sure I would have administered that one properly in the heat of the moment.  Nice post Bob!

[KWH]

Great play Bob.
I've heard all the arguments against dropping a beanbag behind the LOS, Yada, Yada, Yada!
Most common argument is, a spot behind the LOS is NEVER used for penalty enforcement, Yada, Yada, Yada! 
However, in this situation, perhaps, it might just turn out to be a good thing if an official had happened to drop a beanbag at the A38! It WAS the spot of the fumble.
Why? A beanbag behind the LOS might just happen to turn someones light bulb on!   
Hey! Wait? Holllld-on their bawbuh-Louie! We have a Beanbag down behind the LOS?
Lets talk about this one! By rule, I reckon aint we sposta have to a loose ball play

Post game discussion might just include:
Wow! Sha-Zamm! Golly! We had a bag of beans down behind the LOS and the dad-gummed world continued to rotate. Or; 
Hey! You know what guys? We got the enforcement right for all the wrong reasons!!! 

Just a thought!   

[Ralph Damren]

IW during a scrimmage kick is probably the worst time to have one, with or without a penalty...

And the worst scrimmage kick for it to happen on is a field goal attempt. We "wiggle" our whistles when in FG formation to remind each other...

THIS IS JUST LIKE A PUNT THAT CAN SCORE,
                                                   SOUND YOUR TWEETER WILL MAKE US ALL SORE!!!

                   

[KWH]

When a Field Goal is blocked the ball remains live right up until someone blows an IW.
Usually the R coach will want (and he is certainly entitled to) an explanation.
I recall having to make that walk once after the UMPIRE blew an IW on a blocked Field Goal with the ball bouncing around in the offensive backfield.
The R coach beckoned me over, I slowly (while gathering my thoughts) walked over to the coach and I said; Coach, unfortunately there is nothing that I am about to tell you that you are going to like! We had an Inadvertent Whistle and, by rule, the offense has the option to replay the last down.
Because Rulesman does not like profanity on this board, I will forgo the coaches response, but, I will say, he was not pleased.
If you are ever in this predicament, it really should not matter what the R coach has to say, let him vent, and go replay the down.  I strongly recommend not Throwing a UNS on an R coach that is upset due to an egregious officiating error such as this one regrdless of what he says.

[bama_stripes]

If you are ever in this predicament, it really should not matter what the R coach has to say, let him vent, and go replay the down. 

Strongly agree

I strongly recommend not Throwing a UNS on an R coach that is upset due to an egregious officiating error such as this one regrdless of what he says.

Absolutely disagree.  An officiating error, even one that might cost him points, is no reason to act like a raving lunatic.  He's supposed to be setting an example for his team and fans.

Am I going to give him a very long leash?  Certainly.  Am I going to give him carte blanc?  No way.

[KWH]

Forgive me Bama.
I did not mean to suggest he had carte blanc to go into a profanity injected lunatical rage.
I did mean to suggest that this is a situation where you need to give him LOTS of rope.

But he did project his opinion that replaying the down affords his opponent a 2nd opportunity to win the ballgame!  And that 2nd opportunity was never earned rather it was gifted by an officiating error.
He further commented that their should not be a rule that allows a team to gain an advantage by an officiating error.
All of his comments were short and too the point even though they were blended with some profanity. (For the record, had he been griping about a missed hold he likely would have earned a flag!)
Others may have flagged him this time, and, while I realize everyone's limit is not the same, on this particular day, I chose not to throw another log on the bonfire.

And now the rest of the story....
After the explanation, We lined then back up, the snap, the kick, and the field goal was blocked again by the same kid through the same gap. The ball caromed out of bounds as time expired in the 4th during the down
...and no whistle from the Umpire this time.

Final R21,  K20  (The right team won)

There is a football God!

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, there is a big difference between a coach griping  about a judgment call (he was/wasn't holding, that was a catch/trap, he was/wasn't in, etc.) and an IW . I've had to make that long walk that KWH described a few times and have told myself :
                       (1)  EXPLAIN
                       (2)  LISTEN
                       (3) WALK AWAY

Unless he makes physical contact or swears at me and not the IW that upset him , I'll let him vent. I'll usually begin with :
     "Coach, we blew it. We sounded a whistle while the ball was loose and BY RULE need to replay the down. I apologize for our crew.... "
     That seems to soften the discussion  , and remember....


INADVERTENT WHISTLES RARELY HAVE HAPPY ENDINGS

 

[Ralph Damren]

You nailed it, Kalle, . The wise ole' white hat told his crew he was going to do it "the ole' fashioned way" which was correct per my call to NFHS. The kick hadn't ended prior to the IW so previous spot was the only option. There was a minority opinion that we could rule that the kick had ended where it was bouncing when the IW sounded but if said kick was still airborne ,there would be no way of estimating it's location.
I agree that your proposed enforcement would seem the fairest, but unfortunely IWs rarely have happy endings

 "I'M SORRY COACH, BUT BY RULE...."

     

Retrieved as support of fresh IW topic -