Author Topic: Who is watching Number 2?  (Read 3762 times)

Offline MacDiiddy

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Who is watching Number 2?
« on: March 24, 2017, 07:30:34 AM »
I asked this question on coachhuey.com and wanted to see if there was a better answer.

I got 3 answers, Back Judge, Wing and Nobody.
and apparently it is relevant information to mention I am from Indiana.

But here it is, We had a big playoff game that we lost, no thanks to a Rub/Pick play. When we were asking the ref on our sideline to watchi it, I believe he said he was watching number 1.

Here is the play.



Also, I am referring to number 2 as the "H" in this diagram.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2017, 03:16:20 PM »
7 or 5 officials?


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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 03:19:43 PM »
Which one is #1?
Knowing how many officials is also critical to know.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2017, 08:18:11 PM »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2017, 10:37:01 AM »
Also, did that pass cross the line of scrimmage?

Offline KWH

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 02:21:36 PM »
NFHS game or NCAA game?
Which side of the field is the press box?
1st Half or 2nd half?

Offline MacDiiddy

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2017, 11:26:49 AM »
For a Varsity Game in Indiana they use 5 officials.

The numbering terminology that I use is counting eligible receivers from the sideline in. So: 1 is Z, 2 is H, 3 is Y.  Then on the other side 1 would be X.

And yes, the pass did cross the line of scrimmage, it was a shallow out for about a 4-5 yard catch (Before the Yards after Catch).

It is Indiana so NFHS rules; Field runs East and West, Press box/Home side is on the North Side (Which is where they ran it 3 out of 4 times), Happened Twice in the first half, twice in the second half.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 12:26:29 PM »
Unless I'm missing something, that receiver would then be the Back Judge's key.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline the clown

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 05:03:21 PM »
Coach, tell your defensive coordinator to stay in cover two and the corner blows the play up.  What you are dealing with is the newest trend in offense called Run-Pass-Option.  It's as hard to defend as it is to officiate. 

Offline MacDiiddy

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 07:14:38 AM »
Coach, tell your defensive coordinator to stay in cover two and the corner blows the play up.  What you are dealing with is the newest trend in offense called Run-Pass-Option.  It's as hard to defend as it is to officiate.

In no world should we have to prepare a coverage for an illegal play that they ran 4 times in a game.
And this was a Regional Championship Game, the best crews move on though the playoff system.

So if we can't get this call in the playoffs how are we suppose to get this call in a regular season game?

This isn't an RPO, there is no run threat and the Offensive line is half sliding on the QB's Semi Roll out and not blocking like it a run play. RPO's I can get on my soap box too though haha, but they really are not that hard to defend (On the whiteboard), You have to go 1 high to add another defender to match up against the pass option while your ILB's need to respect the run threat.
And, RPO's can be ran legally, this play, the way they executed it, can't.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 10:20:35 AM »
In no world should we have to prepare a coverage for an illegal play that they ran 4 times in a game.
And this was a Regional Championship Game, the best crews move on though the playoff system.

So if we can't get this call in the playoffs how are we suppose to get this call in a regular season game?

This isn't an RPO, there is no run threat and the Offensive line is half sliding on the QB's Semi Roll out and not blocking like it a run play. RPO's I can get on my soap box too though haha, but they really are not that hard to defend (On the whiteboard), You have to go 1 high to add another defender to match up against the pass option while your ILB's need to respect the run threat.
And, RPO's can be ran legally, this play, the way they executed it, can't.
The user name "the clown" fits this guy to a tee. Probably as snarky an answer to a legitimate question as has ever been posted on this board.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline prab

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 11:10:27 AM »
The user name "the clown" fits this guy to a tee. Probably as snarky an answer to a legitimate question as has ever been posted on this board.

10-4  +1  Amen!

Offline the clown

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 11:35:58 AM »
You are right Rulesman.  Not a good answer to a difficult question.  I, however am a multiple time, State Regional Final official and for 30 years been one of the top rodeo clowns in the Professional Rodeo Cowboy Association.  I work primarily as an Umpire but have worked Section finals at all 5 positions including a state finals in Basketball.  Here is the problem with the question proposed by this coach on this play.  Our five man mechanics has the BJ responsible for the outside receiver (fly route), but he can help on #2.  The flank has #2 who picks the Outside Backer responsible for covering the Back in the flat.  The flank has a lot to pay attention to on this play and I would say in this scenario he missed the pick play and the correct call should be OPI.  I can see the flank getting fooled the first time because he has a terrible angle on the pick and a lot more going on, like a key block on the End Man on the LOS.  He also has a major run threat by the QB, hence R-P-O.  The flank needs to ask himself, "How did the back get open?"  I can give the BJ and covering Flank a pass on the first time this play is run.  The second time they better be looking for it.. Especially the BJ.  With a little communication, I can't understand how this play would be allowed to go on.  Which is the question the coach is asking.  I just think there might be more going on that proves the officials correct.

Offline riffraft

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 02:29:26 PM »
Am I missing something, but isn't the #2 wideout, being the inside receiver, the BJ initial responsibility according the NFHS mechanics?

Offline Bama Ref

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2017, 02:53:49 PM »
Am I missing something, but isn't the #2 wideout, being the inside receiver, the BJ initial responsibility according the NFHS mechanics?
Yes, "H" or #2 receiver is the BJ's initial key.

IMO, the BJ has to be pretty disciplined on this play especially with "Z" the outside receiver running a fly pattern down the sideline. If you are playing your man-zone-man philosophy the BJ should catch it IF the block happens quick. However, if there is a little delay on that block it won't be nearly as easy to catch since the BJ may be worried about getting beat deep. 

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2017, 05:47:11 PM »
I asked this question on coachhuey.com and wanted to see if there was a better answer.

I got 3 answers, Back Judge, Wing and Nobody.
and apparently it is relevant information to mention I am from Indiana.

But here it is, We had a big playoff game that we lost, no thanks to a Rub/Pick play. When we were asking the ref on our sideline to watchi it, I believe he said he was watching number 1.

Here is the play.



Also, I am referring to number 2 as the "H" in this diagram.
Posting the film will be helpful


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2017, 08:59:43 AM »
For what it's worth, there's usually "some" differential between what a play looks like, when drawn on paper, and actually executed on the field.  Sometimes, even in a playoff game, the reality can look a lot different than it does on paper.

Be that as it may, a specific, relevant question from a sideline coach may be very helpful to a wing official, reviewing his handling of any situation, depending on specifically WHAT was asked and HOW it may have been presented, as well as what other questions and comments have been passed along that sideline .  Of course, not knowing how "the actual question' was asked, it's hard to suggest what value may have been conveyed, but "Who are you watching" is not likely to produce a constructive, positive or helpful reply.

The "appropriate" answer depends on the size of the officiating crew (4, 5, 6 or 7 men) and would be affected by how well (and how covertly)any suggested PICK may have been executed.

I'm always conscious of the old advice, "You can draw a picture of a beautiful woman, but you really can't "make love" to it".
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 09:06:01 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline KWH

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2017, 08:12:29 PM »

Hello MacDiiddy -

Is it possible to post a film clip of perhaps clips of plays in question.
If you could do so you would likely get some (perhaps opinionated) answers.
Otherwise all you are going to get is speculative answers.

Offline MacDiiddy

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2017, 07:59:34 PM »
Thanks for all the input, obviously not trying to change the call 5-6 months later, just more curious who is really suppose to make that call and it sounds like it is the Back Judge.

Here is the play though, the more I watch it and how they execute it, the harder it would be to get the call, especially with it not being a complete, im going to pancake you block.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LM11u9UZwI&feature=youtu.be

Offline Bob M.

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2017, 08:01:25 AM »
Thanks for all the input, obviously not trying to change the call 5-6 months later, just more curious who is really suppose to make that call and it sounds like it is the Back Judge.

Here is the play though, the more I watch it and how they execute it, the harder it would be to get the call, especially with it not being a complete, im going to pancake you block.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LM11u9UZwI&feature=youtu.be

REPLY: You're right that you really can't tell much from the clip. All we get to see is the action just after to 'suspect' OPI occurred. Just so that you understand how a pick is ruled from an officials/rules perspective, I've included something that I wrote for a training program a few years back.

Offensive Pass Interference - "Pick" play
This must be an intentional act by the receiver. He must be “hunting” for the defender and initiate blocking contact with him for the sole purpose of knocking him off his defensive coverage. Don’t flag this unless you see the whole play. If the receiver comes out and is standing still in the defender's path looking back for the ball, and the defender runs into him, it’s not an illegal pick (OPI). It might just be defensive pass interference. If the receiver is running a legitimate pattern looking back at the QB when the contact occurs, chances are pretty good that you won’t have a pick. Also, if the defender swerves to avoid the oncoming pick and no contact occurs, there is no foul. You must have contact to even consider a pick.
   Where might you see this tactic? It’s often a “red zone” play, occurring close to the opponent’s goal line. It’s likely to happen out of a “trips” formation or out of a formation where there are two receivers set up away from the tackle or tight end when the defense is in man-to-man coverage. The pick may come from the inside attempting to free up the widest receiver running an “in” pattern. It can also be run from the outside where the pick frees up the inside receiver (probably a TE or a slot) for a pass into the flats. Be looking for it out of spread formations down in the “red zone,” especially if the offense audibles after seeing man-to-man coverage. HL, LJ, and BJ must know their keys and watch for this type of activity. Not a bad idea to have a signal to remind each other to look for picks in this type of situation. We use a fist into an open hand at chest level as our “reminder.” Here's another clue...Watch the eyes of your key before the snap. Many 'legitimate' wide receivers will be looking back toward the snap. However, a receiver whose assignment is to pick off a defender is very likely to glance a few times, or be staring at that defender. If you see your key eyeing up a defender before the snap, that makes him a pick suspect.
Bob M.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2017, 10:58:28 AM »
Even if the block/pick was more aggressive, I don't think it's going to be caught very often.  The responsibilities that were described above are initial responsibilities, and they change as the play develops.  The BJ is likely to pay attention to the Z receiver as soon as he starts his fly pattern, and the wing official has the Y receiver coming into his area of responsibility.  As that play develops, the H-back is going to be free to do exactly what he did, or might have done.

Once we get past week 1 of the playoffs in Florida, we go to 7 man mechanics.  That's the only way to have eyes on all 5 eligible receivers.

Offline jason

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2017, 01:59:59 PM »
Tough play with 5-man.

Having said that, however, the BJ on this play appears to be somewhat distracted or off his key.  Pre-snap he's looking at the weak side of the formation, which is wrong, and when the play starts he is staring down the QB.  By the time he makes it to his key, the damage is already done.

Normally I'd agree with FLAHL that the BJ would be moving his concentration slightly towards the Z on this play, but it doesn't appear this BJ ever comes close to looking that way (even if he did sense it enough to back pedal far enough to cover Z's route).

Having said all that, the contact itself is questionable, and depending on whether the H receiver is actually hunting for a downfield block would determine if this foul would even be called.

Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2017, 01:45:23 PM »
Looking at the NFHS Mechanics Manual, that key would be the BJ if you consider them lining up with trips and the wing takes the third one in.  If no trips, the BJ has the widest eligible receiver on the strong side (or the LJ side in a balanced formation).  See the section titled ""Keys and Priority of Keys".  Am I missing something elsewhere in the NFHS manual?

Offline zoom

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Re: Who is watching Number 2?
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2017, 08:08:30 AM »
Looking at the NFHS Mechanics Manual, that key would be the BJ if you consider them lining up with trips and the wing takes the third one in.  If no trips, the BJ has the widest eligible receiver on the strong side (or the LJ side in a balanced formation).  See the section titled ""Keys and Priority of Keys".  Am I missing something elsewhere in the NFHS manual?

You aren't missing anything.  Some states and associations have the BJ key on the inside receiver on the strong side, even though the mechanics manual clearly has the BJ take the outside receiver.  In either case, in TRIPPS, the BJ has two receivers and #2 will be one of them.  But, since Y is a back between the tackles, hethis isn't a TRIPPS formation.  In this situation, however, the BJ should quickly recognize that the wing official is pinned with two backs on his side and two other receivers.   If they ran it 4 times, the officials should be hearing complaints and should also recognize that the #1 receiver running the fly route doesn't need to be focused on initially.  The BJ should look at #2, leaving the wing to look at the backs.  Once the #2 clears the pressure ares with respect to S, all officials should be transitioning to zone.  There is no way, in 5 man mechanics, to make initial keys fit every situation and provide coverage on all potential fouls.  This is a very difficult get.  I still think that the crew should have adjusted if they really fouled 4 times with the same play.  But, if you want to see better coverage, lobby for 6 or 7 officials in varsiry games.  6 and 7 official mechanics would be able to handle this without much difficulty.