Author Topic: Illegal Kick?  (Read 1383 times)

Offline J12

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Illegal Kick?
« on: May 29, 2017, 02:16:55 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvzfPwsMcks


It looks like we have "Illegal Participation" on B.  But do we have a foul for "Illegal Kicking" on A?  It looks to me like A's punter gets possession of the ball and then punts it backward out of his own end zone.  Is there any rule that says you can't punt it backwards?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 02:43:10 PM »
I could only count 9 Defensive players in the formation, SO "IF" there were more than 11 on the field at the snap, B would be guilty of IP, and negate the apparent Safety, by A. Otherwise his movement is immaterial. 

It appears that K did execute a kick satisfying the requirements of NFHS 2-24-8, which does not include any restriction about the direction of the kick

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 04:29:49 PM »
If you pause while the B player is running off, you can see there are 10. If there are 2 deep receivers, that's 12. If that's the case, play should have been blown dead for IS prior to the snap.
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 10:46:41 AM »
IMHO, the ball appeared to in possession of the punter when he punted for a safety.
BUT, WHAT IF.....
   He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ ?
    He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while R drew a flag for IP ??
      He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while BJ was blowing his whistle for IS ???
       He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while R's HC scales his clipboard to midfield ???

Bonus Question : What is our flag protocol for Memorial Day ?

Hope all of you guys had an enjoyable Memorial Day, but took time to remember our fallen heroes.

 :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon:

Offline prab

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 11:53:09 AM »
Bonus Question : What is our flag protocol for Memorial Day ?

 :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon:

When flag is raised, it is raised all the way to the top of the staff, and then lowered to half staff, where it remains until time to lower it.  When flag is lowered from the half staff position, it is first raised back to the top and then lowered for removal and folding.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 01:56:16 PM »
IMHO, the ball appeared to in possession of the punter when he punted for a safety.
BUT, WHAT IF.....
   He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ ?
    He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while R drew a flag for IP ??
      He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while BJ was blowing his whistle for IS ???
       He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while R's HC scales his clipboard to midfield ???
I'll give it a shot Ralph--
1) Result of the play is a safety, also a foul for illegal kick.  Choice = 2 pts OR 1/2 distance and repeat down
2) Double foul - replay the down
3) Penalty administered for IS, no foul on K  (BJ was late killing the play, but I'm not calling this an IW)
4) Result of the play is a safety, also a live ball foul for illegal kick.  Following administration of the live ball foul, a dead ball unsportsmanlike against R's head coach.  And if he actually did throw his clipboard to midfield, I'm tossing him.
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline KWH

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 02:29:15 PM »
I'll give it a shot Ralph--
1) Result of the play is a safety, also a foul for illegal kick.  Choice = 2 pts OR 1/2 distance and repeat down
2) Double foul - replay the down
3) Penalty administered for IS, no foul on K  (BJ was late killing the play, but I'm not calling this an IW)
4) Result of the play is a safety, also a live ball foul for illegal kick.  Following administration of the live ball foul, a dead ball unsportsmanlike against R's head coach.  And if he actually did throw his clipboard to midfield, I'm tossing him.

I agree with FLAHL, only if, when the ball was Illegally kicked, the ball was in the field. (Ralph did not say!)
So, if the ball was in the end zone when it was Illegally Kicked:
1) Safety if accepted or Safety if declined as per 10-5-4.
2) Agree with FLAHL, Double foul - Replay the down.
3) Agree with FLAHL, Enforce the dead ball IS only and make sure the back judge buys the 1st round.
4) Safety if accepted or Safety if declined as per 10-5-4.  K shall then free kick from the 50 yard line after enforcement of the 2nd UNS fouls on the Head Coach of K. 
Restated, I agree with FLAHL as when the clipboard came down in the field I also tossed him, but,
when he shouted "That's a bunch of cowpie!!!" he earned a 2nd UNS as a lovely parting gift.

Question for Ralph:
Since the HC was disqualified prior to receiving his 2nd UNS, does that UNS foul technically get charged to the newly designated HC.  This would mean He/She could be awarded a UNS prior to even being designated???

« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 02:40:32 PM by KWH »

Offline J12

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 07:11:03 PM »
IMHO, the ball appeared to in possession of the punter when he punted for a safety.
BUT, WHAT IF.....
   He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ ?
    He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while R drew a flag for IP ??
      He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while BJ was blowing his whistle for IS ???
       He kicked the bouncing kick thru his EZ while R's HC scales his clipboard to midfield ???

Bonus Question : What is our flag protocol for Memorial Day ?

Hope all of you guys had an enjoyable Memorial Day, but took time to remember our fallen heroes.

 :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon: :patrioticon:



On Memorial Day, flag flies at half-staff until noon and then full staff thereafter.  I saw that issue arise 2 years in a row at a HS softball county tournament final.  Both times they had the flag at full-staff before noon and I had to remind them.


Online bama_stripes

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 05:53:30 AM »

Since the HC was disqualified prior to receiving his 2nd UNS, does that UNS foul technically get charged to the newly designated HC.  This would mean He/She could be awarded a UNS prior to even being designated???

I wouldn't think so.  UNS fouls are charged to an individual, not a position.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 08:40:42 AM »
I wouldn't think so.  UNS fouls are charged to an individual, not a position.

Let's run with this scenario. 

Last allowable foul for being in the restricted area before ejection.  Who is tossed?  Someone has to be designated as the HC after the ejection.  Then, the same scenario happens again.  Who is tossed?  Someone has to be designated as the HC.  It would seem as though this scenario allows penalties to be charged to a position.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 09:36:11 AM »
Sorry to be absent for a few days, but I'm the baseball interpreter for our local chapter and was dealing with several issues that had came up. Here are my belated rants/grunts/yelps/whatever....

FLAHL : Where a whistle occurring a split second after a false snap isn't considered an IW, neither would I consider one for IS.

KWH : I was referencing the video that showed the kick occurring around K's 2.
          IMHO, the post-toss :thumbup USC would not be charged to new HC as ATBD (about-to-be-departed) head coach has yet to leave for parts unknown.

"BAMA : Just like if you tossed Bubba and he uttered "@#$%^&* Refs" you would not charge the HC.

PRAB : Excellent flag protocol  :patrioticon:

J12 : Good job, flag returns to full staff at noon on Memorial Day :patrioticon:

SCH : IMHO, while the HC is responsible for sideline conduct, the old HC would deserve the 2nd USC flag. I see KWH's and your points, but charging the old HC's final rant USC to the new HC would not help the game officials in moving on.

DISCLAIMER : These are not the opinions of the NFHS ,NCAA, MPA, CFL, NFL, GOP, ASPCA, AFL/CIO; but merely the grumblings of an ole' baseball umpire who has been busy trying to get everyone all on the same page. If you own/have owned cats, it is a task similar to herding cats. hEaDbAnG
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:26:16 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 12:32:32 PM »
...and you think football officials are any different? 😂😂😂
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Offline VA Official

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 02:25:17 PM »
I could only count 9 Defensive players in the formation, SO "IF" there were more than 11 on the field at the snap, B would be guilty of IP, and negate the apparent Safety, by A. Otherwise his movement is immaterial. 

It appears that K did execute a kick satisfying the requirements of NFHS 2-24-8, which does not include any restriction about the direction of the kick

If there are 2 receivers back to receive the kick, that puts 12 on the field at the snap. But, 3-7-4 says this play is live-ball illegal substitution, not illegal participation. The replaced player in a dead sprint to get off the field did not influence (participate) or affect the play. If the replaced player didn't leave within 3 seconds, it's a dead ball IS, but I think #13 is the substitute coming on and doesn't "become a player" until he enters formation (or a few other things which don't happen here). Once he's in formation (in a set stance on the end of the line), it's less than 3 seconds from that point in which the replaced player begins to leave the field. If #13 wasn't the substitute coming on, then you probably have dead ball IS and kill the play. Either way, we have live-ball or dead ball IS, not IP. I wouldn't want to hit the team for 15 in a scenario where the player is trying hard to get off the field unless he actually affects the play, and the rules supports that logic.

Offline js in sc

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 09:31:28 PM »
I would agree it should have been blown dead for IS.
My question is: What makes this an illegal kick?  It is behind the NZ and not grounded.

Offline VA Official

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Re: Illegal Kick?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 10:25:07 PM »
I would agree it should have been blown dead for IS.
My question is: What makes this an illegal kick?  It is behind the NZ and not grounded.

It's not. As you said, it's legal because he recovered the ball before kicking it.