Author Topic: New Pop Up Kick rule  (Read 5251 times)

Offline jason

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New Pop Up Kick rule
« on: June 02, 2017, 09:27:09 AM »
a free kick in which the kicker drives the ball immediately to the ground, the ball strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee.

Is this legal or not?
https://youtu.be/FsgdfmFS9nM

  • Free kick - Check
  • drives the ball immediately to the ground - Check
  • ball strikes the ground once - Check
  • into the air - Check
  • in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee -  ??? ???

To me this feels like a foul.  The purpose of the kick is clear, and the ball gets above head height.  It just so happens this kicker isn't really good at the pop up portion of the kick.

What's the general consensus?  Thoughts?

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2017, 11:05:00 AM »
The kick meets the "new" 2-24-10 definition of a pop-up kick.
The kick is illegal, (Free Kick infraction) and the ball remains dead as per "new" Rule 6-1-11
5-yard penalty if accepted.

Online carol1995

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2017, 11:41:44 AM »
a free kick in which the kicker drives the ball immediately to the ground, the ball strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee.

Is this legal or not?
https://youtu.be/FsgdfmFS9nM

  • Free kick - Check
  • drives the ball immediately to the ground - Check
  • ball strikes the ground once - Check
  • into the air - Check
  • in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee -  ??? ???

To me this feels like a foul.  The purpose of the kick is clear, and the ball gets above head height.  It just so happens this kicker isn't really good at the pop up portion of the kick.

What's the general consensus?  Thoughts?

It looks to me like the ball is kicked into the ground, goes about 8 yards, and then pops up in the air.  If that's the case, this kick would be legal.  I haven't read the rule completely as I work NCAA rules, but if it mirrors the NCAA rule, this kick is perfectly legal. 

The kicks that are illegal and the ones where the kicker drives the ball directly into the ground and it pops way up in the air.  Here are some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBQkAgvA4xo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiVixJINgAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ObzQcra-w

Offline scrounge

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2017, 01:16:10 PM »
In my opinion, this kick did NOT go up in the air in the manner of a kick directly kicked off the tee. Legal.

Offline Curious

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2017, 01:39:30 PM »
I guess it depends on what "hits the ground once" means.  Does "once" mean  the initial act of driving the ball into the ground off the tee, or does it mean the first contact with the ground AFTER driving it into the ground off the tee? LOL pi1eOn

 

Offline Rulesman

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2017, 05:06:06 PM »
My understanding is that it's the initial act.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline bossman72

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2017, 10:53:18 PM »
It looks to me like the ball is kicked into the ground, goes about 8 yards, and then pops up in the air.  If that's the case, this kick would be legal.  I haven't read the rule completely as I work NCAA rules, but if it mirrors the NCAA rule, this kick is perfectly legal. 

I disagree.  I think your original video clip is an illegal kick.  He's just not as good at executing the kick as your 3 examples listed later.

He's clearly trying to drive the ball immediately into the ground to get a big bounce, he's just not good at it (and got a lucky second bounce).

NCAA doesn't matter since it just gives you fair catch protection.  So in your original video, the point is moot in NCAA rules since the ball bounced twice.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2017, 05:28:40 AM »
Isn't the purpose of the rule to prevent a K player from blowing up an R player who believes he can fair catch the kick?

If so, this wouldn't be a foul, IMO.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2017, 07:27:07 AM »
The kick directly into the ground is illegal. The Fed rule is NOT the same as the NCAA rule.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline KWH

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Here are the two new rules and the new casebook play
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2017, 06:05:09 PM »
From the 2017 NFHS Rules Book
2-24-10...A pop-up kick is a Free Kick in which the kicker drives the ball immediately into the ground, the ball strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee.
6-1-11...A pop-up kick is illegal.
PENALTY: Arts 2, 11 - Free-Kick Infraction (S7-19)

From the 2017 NFHS Case Book
6.1.11 SITUATION: K1 executes a pop-up kick from the K40 in a free-kick situation. 
RULING: The play is immediately blown dead, K is penalized five-yards for a free-kick infraction and, if the distance penalty is accepted, must re-kick from the K35. If the distance penalty is declined, K shall re-kick from the K40.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 06:09:18 PM by KWH »

Offline ncwingman

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2017, 10:23:03 PM »
I have to say that there are a lot of case book plays that are really of no help in interpreting rules, and this is one of them. It might state what to do in the event of a pop up kick, but it doesn't clarify what a pop up kick actually is.

In my opinion, I don't think the original link is illegal -- it's a (poor) squib kick that gets a high bounce later. The pop up kick is hit directly down so that there is an immediate high bounce off the ground. The original link kick has an initial bounce that is not high or a "pop up". There is no guarantee that a later bounce will go high and shouldn't be penalized as such.

Offline Stinterp

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2017, 06:45:03 AM »
The kick in original video in legal. The ball does not go immediately high into the air. This is simply a legal onside kick. If the ball bounces high after hitting the ground after the immediate hit then it is legal. It doesn't matter what the kicker intended to do. The fact is, the ball did not bounce high into the air on the immediate hit of the ground. Don't forget the intent of the rule is to eliminate the uncertainty of the kick either being kicked high in to the air from the ground or directly from the tee, in this play everyone can clearly see the ball was not kicked into the ground and bounced high into the air immediately.

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2017, 03:54:03 PM »
Stinterup - For clarification, The word "high" does not appear anywhere in the rule. 

In the OP, the kicker intentionally kicked the ball from the tee immediately into the ground.
In my interpretation, this act is a Free kick infraction and the act causes the ball to remain dead.
What the dead ball does after the illegal act, is of no consequence since it is merely action during a dead ball.
5-yard penalty, re-kick.

However, that being said, and, after reading some of your posts, it is abundantly apparent, not all are going to interpret this play the same way. So....
Only your individual state SRI knows for sure! And, it is likely he/she may wait until after the July NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting before making a definitive interpretation of this one.

My 2 cents!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 04:22:16 PM by KWH »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2017, 08:47:47 AM »
AYUH, 'tis baseball season, so in baseball terms....

          A grounder that takes a high bounce is legal P_S P_S P_S P_S P_S (5 man crew).

          A "Baltimore-chop" that hits the plate and bounces high is not  ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag

                 ....'Nuf said..play ball!!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »
Stinterup - For clarification, The word "high" does not appear anywhere in the rule. 

In the OP, the kicker intentionally kicked the ball from the tee immediately into the ground.
In my interpretation, this act is a Free kick infraction and the act causes the ball to remain dead.
What the dead ball does after the illegal act, is of no consequence since it is merely action during a dead ball.
5-yard penalty, re-kick.

However, that being said, and, after reading some of your posts, it is abundantly apparent, not all are going to interpret this play the same way. So....
Only your individual state SRI knows for sure! And, it is likely he/she may wait until after the July NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting before making a definitive interpretation of this one.

My 2 cents!
The word "high" may have several meanings varying per your location. We Mainers find several uses such as :
 (1) "Ayuh, that there Mt. Katahdin is sure HIGH."

 (2) With pot now being legal in Maine, " Ayuh, 'spect Bubba and the prom queen are out behind the chicken coop a' gittin' HIGH".

 (3) "Don't ya' give me no 'HIGH-five', I'm still a 'hand-shaker' ".

In your part of the country there may be other uses of the word HIGH. Regarding #2, the last time I smoked pot was at one of them there peace rallies and we were all chanting "HEY,HEY,HO,HO, LBJ's gotta' go". A habit I don't need to pick up, Mt. K is high but there are plenty higher, I happily give a high-five. The only HIGH I now worry about is in measuring an illegal pop-up kick. I'm 5'7" anything above that is HIGH.

While my Oregonian friend, KWH, offers 2 cents; I offer a dime...inflation tR:oLl.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:04:33 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2017, 10:34:46 PM »

Ralph -

In your opinion, does the kick in the OP video meet the definition of a Pop-Up Kick???
Or, do we say the action is legal???

Thank you

Kevin 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2017, 08:06:56 AM »
Ralph -

In your opinion, does the kick in the OP video meet the definition of a Pop-Up Kick???
Or, do we say the action is legal???

Thank you

Kevin


Kevin -
 While it appears to meet our definition of a pop-up kick ,it doesn't appear to be a very good one. I wouldn't fault the crew if they didn't flag as it didn't have the appearance that they were looking for. This stirred up a memory of a game where a charging linebacker's jersey was grabbed by a fullback as the linebacker blew by him and sacked the QB. The linebacker looked at me and asked : "Ref, why wasn't that holding ????" . I responded : " Because he did a very poor job of holding 8]! " The linebacker agreed.

                                                     No, thank you
                                                            Ralph

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 12:06:53 PM »
Ralph -

I once spilled half a glass of wine on my pants!
Unfortunately, the guy at cleaners charge me full price!

I have a fix...

6-1-11...An attempted pop-up kick is illegal.

Online carol1995

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2017, 01:51:55 PM »
I have a fix...

6-1-11...An attempted pop-up kick is illegal.

I think you're going down a slippery slope there.  You are asking the officials to rule on what they think he was trying to do.  I don't think that's a good idea.

We don't penalize players who are trying to hold or trying to commit pass interference but don't. 

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2017, 02:24:46 PM »
I think you're going down a slippery slope there.  You are asking the officials to rule on what they think he was trying to do.  I don't think that's a good idea.

We don't penalize players who are trying to hold or trying to commit pass interference but don't.

Thank you and I appreciate that thought and I agree with you, we do not want that.
The intent of the rule change is for the pop-up kick to go away. However some are finding reasons to "Make" this play legal and I do not necessarily disagree with them as, based on the current wording of the rule, the play falls into a grey are  So, if the committee wants this play to be illegal the wording of the rule will need to change.   

What are your thoughts on this one:

6-1-11...A pop-up kick is illegal. Kicking the ball immediately into the ground is a foul and the ball remains dead.

Online carol1995

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2017, 04:45:24 PM »
What are your thoughts on this one:

6-1-11...A pop-up kick is illegal. Kicking the ball immediately into the ground is a foul and the ball remains dead.

That makes it a little better and a little more black and white.  I would like to see it say something about the ball going high into the air.  I'm not sure how it would need to be worded, but I think what they are trying to take out of the game is the kick that goes high into the air (after hitting the ground immediately off the tee), and giving the kicking team time to get downfield and a chance to catch it in the air since there is no fair catch protection.  A well-executed onside kick that bounces once or twice and then goes up in the air (similar to the original video in this thread) could be interpreted as an attempt at a pop-up kick if it hits the ground just off the tee.  I could be wrong, but I don't think the rules makers want that.

Giving fair catch protection has taken this type of kick out of the college game.  I know the NFHS doesn't necessarily want to copy the NCAA on a lot of things (and I understand why), but this might be a good one to copy. 

Offline jason

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2017, 07:11:28 PM »
I'm a bit surprised by the disagreement.

Two questions for those who think it's not a foul:
1) If this kick happened at the end of the game, in an obvious onside kick situation, would you call it then?
2) How high do you need the kick to be?  The great majority of varsity kickers are not going to be able to smash the ball into the ground and get that super high kick that's perfect for training purposes.  The kick clearly went above head height, and in the game it felt a bit higher than what reality says on video.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2017, 07:54:17 AM »
Ralph -

I once spilled half a glass of wine on my pants!
Unfortunately, the guy at cleaners charge me full price!

I have a fix...

6-1-11...An attempted pop-up kick is illegal.

 Kevin -
  1/2 glass of wine spilled = 1/2 of glass left to drink = was your glass now half full or half empty ????
  SUGGESTION : Drinking directly from the bottle will reduce spillage potential by 67% per a very unofficial study.

  Unsure if kick was : (1) a lousy attempt at a pop-up kick; (2) just a lousy kick; (3) a grounder with a high bounce ; (4) none of the above.
  SUGGESTION : Our federal justice system requires one to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt = IF you have a reasonable doubt a foul occurred , it didn't.

  OPINION : More wine is better than less wine...less flags are better than more flags.

  :) P_S ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8] ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( >:D :bOW :!# eAt& pray:; nAnA cRaZy :angel: :embarassed: :laugh:

 

 

Online carol1995

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2017, 08:28:59 AM »
I'm a bit surprised by the disagreement.

Two questions for those who think it's not a foul:
1) If this kick happened at the end of the game, in an obvious onside kick situation, would you call it then?
2) How high do you need the kick to be?  The great majority of varsity kickers are not going to be able to smash the ball into the ground and get that super high kick that's perfect for training purposes.  The kick clearly went above head height, and in the game it felt a bit higher than what reality says on video.

1. No, I don't think it's a foul at any point in the game.
2. It needs to go high enough so that the kicking team has enough time to get down and catch it in the air after it has gone 10 yards.  It went neither high enough nor far enough for the kicking team to do this.  This play looks like a perfectly executed onside kick to me. 

I think we need to understand why this rule change was put in place.  What are the rules makers trying to do with this change?  Ralph, do you have any insight into this since (I think) you were at the rules meeting?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2017, 10:46:55 AM »
All in the name of player safety.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi