Author Topic: New Pop Up Kick rule  (Read 7356 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2017, 10:55:45 AM »
1. No, I don't think it's a foul at any point in the game.
2. It needs to go high enough so that the kicking team has enough time to get down and catch it in the air after it has gone 10 yards.  It went neither high enough nor far enough for the kicking team to do this.  This play looks like a perfectly executed onside kick to me. 

I think we need to understand why this rule change was put in place.  What are the rules makers trying to do with this change?  Ralph, do you have any insight into this since (I think) you were at the rules meeting?

This was considered a safety issue ,as a pop-up kick couldn't be fair caught by R and would draw many opponents on a collision course. I discussed this at a coaches clinic a few months ago and received several positive responses, such as : "It makes the game more safe for both teams." "It was hard to teach and harder to do." "If we don't teach it the kids won't do it." "If we don't get behind, we won't have to worry about onside kicking ;)".

While concerned about the ability of us to identify, I'm not concerned about it's expected elimination. With it now illegal, I firmly believe it won't be taught and those players that have already learned it will be advised not to use it. Sometime late last century Maine passed a seatbelt rule for all in passenger cars. A statewide poll had indicated that less than 50% wore them. I had my doubts about it's success, as it appeared to be a "hard call" for P_S. A couple of years ago another poll was conducted. This time 85%+ responded that they now wore seatbelts. IMHO, this was the result of the perceived safety the seatbelts provided and not the mass arrests made, as there weren't any.

Back in 1996, the major concern was for the snapper's safety. Many nose-guards and middle linebackers were coached to intimidate him by blasting him as soon as he snapped. It was hoped that this be rewarded with a bad snap later on. Today's roughing the snapper rule was passed and ,to this day, I can't recall it being  ^flag in any of my games. WHY ??? ??? Easy, the coach taught the new rule and the players listened.

IMHO, the same will happen with the pop-up kick....my glass is always half FULL tiphat:.

                  -Ralph

Offline carol1995

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2017, 11:06:20 AM »

This was considered a safety issue ,as a pop-up kick couldn't be fair caught by R and would draw many opponents on a collision course.

With that information, we can't call this a pop-up kick.  This is just like a standard onside kick.  The ball hits the ground twice within 8 yards and then pops up in the air.

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2017, 11:26:21 AM »
With that information, we can't call this a pop-up kick.  This is just like a standard onside kick.  The ball hits the ground twice within 8 yards and then pops up in the air.

And, Carol, quite frankly, and with all due respect, I respectfully disagree.
When the kicker drove the ball immediately into the ground, the play was over, the ball remained dead, and a Free Kick Infraction is issued.
In my opinion, this is what exactly how the NFHS wants this  called. 
If there is a need to re-write the rule so all can understand that is a fairly simple process.

Offline carol1995

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2017, 01:10:27 PM »
And, Carol, quite frankly, and with all due respect, I respectfully disagree.
When the kicker drove the ball immediately into the ground, the play was over, the ball remained dead, and a Free Kick Infraction is issued.
In my opinion, this is what exactly how the NFHS wants this  called. 
If there is a need to re-write the rule so all can understand that is a fairly simple process.

Unless I misunderstood what Ralph posted, this is not the type of kick the NFHS wants called. 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 07:08:16 AM »
We need to remember that , like the earlier free kick restraints, this is also a dead ball foul. We will need to read the kick the second that it is kicked.

  IF drilled directly into the ground = pop-up = blow & throw  ^flag

  IF ball is topped and bounces along the ground = grounder = watch & wait  yEs:

The Catch-22 of the dead ball foul not occurring until the ball, in reality, has came alive may be confusing and may need to add a second or two back on the clock, if it ran. We shouldn't worry about :

  How high is high ?? - If it was drilled into the ground, out should come the flag before
  much contact occurs.

  How often will it occur ?? - If it follows the path of the other free kick restraints,
  not often.

Offline bjfb

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2017, 02:59:53 PM »
The rule is about driving the football directly into the ground off the tee, not how high it goes. Don't like it, but would rule this as a foul.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2017, 07:02:20 PM »
For some time, a sound mechanic has been which even Official hands the kicker the ball, on a free kick, his initial focus is whether the ball was kicked into the ground, or up in the air, because all sorts of things that could subsequently happen depended on knowing the answer to that question.

This new rule seems to eliminate a lot of those former possibilities, BUT it is still vital to know the answer to that question, as to whether to KILL the play, or not, so that simple mechanic seems like an ongoing answer that one of us NEEDS to KNOW.

Offline Stinterp

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2017, 07:31:02 PM »
What if the kicker drives the ball immediately into the ground and the ball doesn't bounce into the air but skids along the ground, is this a foul?  I say no.  There are 2 parts to this foul, the driving the ball immediately into the ground AND the ball striking the ground once and going into the air in a manner of a ball kicked directly off a tee. If the ball doesn't bounce immediately into the air then there is not a foul. We have to wait a split second to make sure the ball bounces immediately into the air before we kill it. The intent of the rule is to eliminate the uncertainty of a ball either kicked into the air from the tee or bounced off the ground into the air. I still say everyone in the stadium can see that this kick did not go into the air off the tee, no foul.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2017, 10:39:16 PM »
Haven't seen the 2017 Rule Book yet, but presuming KWH has and correctly transcribed it as:

"From the 2017 NFHS Rules Book
2-24-10...A pop-up kick is a Free Kick in which the kicker drives the ball immediately into the ground, the ball strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee.
6-1-11...A pop-up kick is illegal.
PENALTY: Arts 2, 11 - Free-Kick Infraction (S7-19)", several specific things have to occur

1. Has to be a Free Kick (Punt after a Safety, seems impractical)
2. Sounds like it would only apply to "Place kicks"
3. The kicker "drives" the ball immediately into the ground
4. The ball can only touch the ground "once"
5. Then go into the air "in a manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee"

If ALL those things happen, are observed by an Official, and judged to violate this rule, play is stopped, for a dead ball foul.

As with so many things we do, the judgment of the covering Official is the (uniquely) deciding factor as to whether the action being observed violates each of the 5 points above, which underscores the importance of someone being designated, and responsible, to focus on the kick.

Offline zoom

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New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2017, 06:49:46 AM »
My reading of the rule is that it is only a foul if the kick goes high after the initial driving of the kick into the ground.  If it does so on the second bounce, like the OP, then play on.  In my opinion, the reason for this is because it is hard for R to know whether the kick hit the ground on a true pop up kick.  They might react like the kick is in flight.  On the other hand, once it bounces twice, R should know it isn't in flight anymore.  I don't care how high it bounces after the 2nd bounce.  As for the first bounce, it only has to bounce high enough that R could reasonably attempt to recover it before it hits the ground again.  No need to put a specific height on it.  If it is high enough, blow the whistle.  The flag can then be dropped.  The "smell test" should suffice.
I would support KWH's flag on the OP, but I honestly don't think the first bounce looked like a ball directly kicked off a tee.


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« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 06:54:38 AM by zoom »

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2017, 04:26:02 PM »
A  little bit different discussion.

Thinking about 5 man crew and mechanic, who's watching this?  Thinking it's the BJ who's on the K line, does it make sense for someone else to look at this?  BJ is also watching for encroachment.  Probably reasonable to get both but would have to think about it a bit more.

If we're positioning for an anticipated onside with two on the line gotta make sure crew is communicating who's ruling on this.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline zoom

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2017, 09:46:16 PM »
A  little bit different discussion.

Thinking about 5 man crew and mechanic, who's watching this?  Thinking it's the BJ who's on the K line, does it make sense for someone else to look at this?  BJ is also watching for encroachment.  Probably reasonable to get both but would have to think about it a bit more.

If we're positioning for an anticipated onside with two on the line gotta make sure crew is communicating who's ruling on this.
On a 5 man crew, I would think both BJ and LJ can get this.  LJ would have a good look at whether the ball bounces in a way that appears to have come directly off of the tee high and deep enough to be potentially recovered by a Team R player.

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2017, 11:13:09 PM »
A  little bit different discussion.

Thinking about 5 man crew and mechanic, who's watching this?  Thinking it's the BJ who's on the K line, does it make sense for someone else to look at this?  BJ is also watching for encroachment.  Probably reasonable to get both but would have to think about it a bit more.

For a 5 man crew, the BJ is an obvious and likely candidate, since he is already responsible for K's Free kick line and adding the responsibility for observing the kick seems a reasonable and logical choice that BJs could easily adapt to.  That responsibility may change with different crew alignments, but the key is to ASSIGN that responsibility to a DESIGNATED Official to avoid confusion and establish consistency.

Heightened attention to "On-side kick" situations already is, and simply would continue to be a priority for ALL Officials. 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 11:15:04 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2017, 07:50:23 AM »
In 5 man, if an onside kick is imminent, we box in the free kick neutral zone with the referee playing centerfield. IMHO, where the BJ has the responsibility of K (excluding kicker) being within 5, I would prefer that LJ watch for this as he is now also at K's line. With U & HL now at 50, they, too, would have a good view. I wouldn't have a problem if a flag came from them, too. I'm a member of the Manual Committee and would be happy to pass on any suggestions that you may have. I've been blessed to have viewed many a' lousy kick over the years (must be Maine's gravitational pull :) ) . The high/low light was probably when the kicker slipped on his approach, slid into the ball feet first and the "kick" rolled about one yard. Everyone -including the officials - stood around the spinning ball watching. When it finally stopped moving, I tweeted and said : "Kick's over, nobody wants it, R's ball." - K was ahead by 40+ - and the band played on....

MORALE OF STORY ; DON'T CONFUSE A LOUSY KICK WITH A POP-UP KICK.
IT'S A DEAD BALL FOUL, AND YOU'LL FEEL RUSHED, BUT BE SURE TO.....

 SEE IT  .....  THINK IT  .....  CALL IT
                                      :o :o :o        ??? ??? ???      ^flag yEs: ^flag yEs:   

Offline KWH

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2017, 01:14:23 PM »
My reading of the rule is that it is only a foul if the kick goes high after the initial driving of the kick into the ground...As for the first bounce, it only has to bounce high enough that R could reasonably attempt to recover it before it hits the ground again.  No need to put a specific height on it.  If it is high enough, blow the whistle.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree as no where in the rule does the word "high" appear.  This is not an accidental over-site, rather, I believe it is intentionally worded as such..
Edit: Additionally, this is a Dead Ball Free Kick Infraction (S7-19). Waiting to see how high the ball bounces would introduce "allowing the ball to be come live before subsequently issuing a delayed ruling that the act was a dead ball foul".  The NFHS does not do this!
For a comparable, one need look no further than comparing NCAA (Live Ball (unless contact occurs)) Offside vs NFHS (Dead Ball) Encroachment. In NFHS,  Dead Ball Encroachment occurs the instant B/R enters the Neutral Zone. However, in NCAA, the covering official must wait for the snap to judge if Offside has occurred, or, if he gets back before the snap, no foul has occurred.  (It should be noted that no where in the NFHS Rules Book or Case Book does the word "Offside" appear. Offside was removed from NFHS scrimmage downs in 1976 and was removed from Free Kicks in 1977.)
 

The 2-24-10 definition was never intended to define a Pop-up kick a two part act similar to a horse collar. Rather, it was merely there to provide a definition of the intended results of a pop-up kick. Unintended results, such as that in the OP video, does not exclude this act from being a Pop-up kick.
If my Chrystal ball is correct, the video in the OP might just appear at the NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting for an interpretation.
 
Restated; how, what, when, where, the ball happens to bounce after being driven directly into the ground has no bearing on the ruling of Free Kick Infraction as the ball remains dead.

I realize some of you are not going to agree with me. That is fine and I am good with that.
I do hope however you agree with the State Rules Interpreter.

My 2 cents

 

« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 11:50:24 AM by KWH »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2017, 10:21:07 AM »
I agree with my friend Kevin ( the author outlawing the Oregonian flea-flicker) that we should be watching for the act (driving the kick into the ground) and not the action (how high did it go?) on this.

When we added free kick infractions of within five yards & four on each side of the kicker, the coaches promptly taught the revised way. Since then very few flags have been thrown. The ones that were was because big ole' Bubba had forgotten where to line up and was promptly reminded by the coach. The execution of the pop-up kick has to be taught. I have faith that it will be removed from coaches curriculum . If a player doesn't know how to do it, the chances are remote that they will do it.

IMHO, this discussion a year from now will be : "Did anyone see more pop-up kicks than free kicks after fair catches  ??? ??? ?"

     Nuff said......until tomorrow  :)

Offline Curious

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2017, 01:13:59 PM »
Sorry, I respectfully disagree as no where in the rule does the word "high" appear.  This is not an accidental over-site, rather, I believe it is intentionally worded as such..
Edit: Additionally, this is a Dead Ball Free Kick Infraction (S7-19). Waiting to see how high the ball bounces would introduce "allowing the ball to be come live before subsequently issuing a delayed ruling that the act was a dead ball foul".  The NFHS does not do this!
For a comparable, one need look no further than comparing NCAA (Live Ball (unless contact occurs)) Offside vs NFHS (Dead Ball) Encroachment. In NFHS,  Dead Ball Encroachment occurs the instant B/R enters the Neutral Zone. However, in NCAA, the covering official must wait for the snap to judge if Offside has occurred, or, if he gets back before the snap, no foul has occurred.  (It should be noted that no where in the NFHS Rules Book or Case Book does the word "Offside" appear. Offside was removed from NFHS scrimmage downs in 1976 and was removed from Free Kicks in 1977.)
 

The 2-24-10 definition was never intended to define a Pop-up kick a two part act similar to a horse collar. Rather, it was merely there to provide a definition of the intended results of a pop-up kick. Unintended results, such as that in the OP video, does not exclude this act from being a Pop-up kick.
If my Chrystal ball is correct, the video in the OP might just appear at the NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting for an interpretation.
 
Restated; how, what, when, where, the ball happens to bounce after being driven directly into the ground has no bearing on the ruling of Free Kick Infraction as the ball remains dead.

I realize some of you are not going to agree with me. That is fine and I am good with that.
I do hope however you agree with the State Rules Interpreter.

My 2 cents

 

Yes the word "high" does not appear; but height is clearly implied in the wording "...and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee". Also, from what I've read, the height factor was put in because when the ball was kicked into the ground, unlike the NCAA rule, R loses their fair catch option - as well as the safety aspect. 

So there really are two requirements, IMHO.  Where did the "edit" come from?  Yours?


 2-24-10 (NEW), 6-1-11 (NEW), 6-1 PENALTY:  Added a new definition for a pop-up kick and specifies a penalty for a pop-up kick.

Rationale:  Continuing with the committee’s efforts to minimize risk, a pop-up kickoff has been defined. A pop-up kick is a free kick in which the kicker drives the ball immediately to the ground, the ball strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee. Such kicks will be penalized as a dead-ball free-kick infraction.

Offline zoom

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2017, 02:34:01 PM »
Sorry, I respectfully disagree as no where in the rule does the word "high" appear.  This is not an accidental over-site, rather, I believe it is intentionally worded as such..

 

But the rule also goes further than just saying that a pop up kick is a kick driven immediately into the ground.  It must bounce once and "go into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee"

Going into the air can mean something different to different people, I grant you, unless you take into account the purpose for the rule.  The rule was added for safety reasons.  I see nothing particluarly dangerous (more so than any other dribbled kick) of a kick that doesn't rise high above the ground.  If this was a case, they would have to outlaw any dribbled kickoff.  In order for a kick off to be dangerous with respect to the pop up kick, there must be time for K and R players to come together while Team R players are looking up at a ball they believe to be in flight.  If a kick doesn't appear to be in flight, as in bouncing high in a manner of a ball kicked off the tee, it shouldn't be ruled a pop up kick. 

I look forward to seeing official clips from NFHS as well as caseplays and the official Powerpoint with further details.  I doubt many state interpreters would be willing to state their opinion on borderline plays like the one in this OP, until more clarification is put out there.  But, I have no doubt that with all of the reasonable arguments for ruling either way, the NFHS will quickly realize that the rule needs to be clarified, and if not in 2017, they will put out rulings in the next year or two to settle any possible disagreement on the rule.

I have certainly been wrong with respect to new rules in the past, and it might just be too early to make decisions at this point.  The July 18th conference call should be a source of decisive info, I hope.

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« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 03:45:41 PM by zoom »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2017, 07:17:09 PM »
How many different ways can you beat a dead horse, before declaring it dead?  Do we really need to go further than, " a (free) kick driven immediately into the ground...." Presuming mechanics will surface designating a specific individual "Official" to observe and JUDGE if that happens.

That Official will be empowered to DETERMINE & DECIDE if what he is observing violates 2-24-10, and if so, stop play and penalize K. Doubtful there is any provision for discussion, and the judgment by that covering Official is FINAL.

Offline zoom

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2017, 08:00:13 PM »


How many different ways can you beat a dead horse, before declaring it dead?  Do we really need to go further than, " a (free) kick driven immediately into the ground...."

Yes, because the definition doesn't end after the word 'ground'....

Doubtful there is any provision for discussion, and the judgment by that covering Official is FINAL.

In the end, this is true.  The idea is to put an end to pop-up kicks.  Its just that we NEVER see pop-up kicks in Eastern CT or Rhode Island, and it would be overly officious to penalize bouncing onside kicks that the rule makers never intended to ban.  But, if we start flagging every kick that goes immediately into the ground, pop-up kicks will stop because any kicker that is good enough to actually pull it off will stop doing it.

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2017, 08:30:48 AM »

Yes, because the definition doesn't end after the word 'ground'....  But, if we start flagging every kick that goes immediately into the ground, pop-up kicks will stop because any kicker that is good enough to actually pull it off will stop doing it.

Good point, but that might be why the rule states "a (free) kick DRIVEN immediately, rather than simply "goes immediately"into the ground. "Drive": To push or PROPEL onward with FORCE; urge or PRESS forward, impel."

Offline zoom

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2017, 09:41:00 AM »
Good point, but that might be why the rule states "a (free) kick DRIVEN immediately, rather than simply "goes immediately"into the ground. "Drive": To push or PROPEL onward with FORCE; urge or PRESS forward, impel."
So if a kicker places the ball on the tee sideways (or some other way to prevent a large bounce) and then drives it immediately into the ground so that the ball will skip along the ground, would you consider that a foul?

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Offline bossman72

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2017, 11:26:02 AM »
...I think you guys are making this harder than it needs to be.

Offline zoom

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2017, 12:16:21 PM »
...I think you guys are making this harder than it needs to be.
You're right.  I personally can't wait for the season to start, so I'm willing to discuss pretty much anything football-related. 

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Offline FLAHL

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Re: New Pop Up Kick rule
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2017, 12:38:17 PM »
...I think you guys are making this harder than it needs to be.

+1

Three things I don't expect to see this year:  (1) Pop-up Kick (2) Free Kick after a fair catch (3) Drop Kick  although I'm always hoping for #2