Author Topic: Illegal Forward Pass?  (Read 1659 times)

Offline J12

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Illegal Forward Pass?
« on: July 31, 2017, 04:18:37 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEnm5W3vb8s

This obviously is a NCAA game, but let's pretend it's a high school game.

Apparently it was ruled that B recovered the fumble in the endzone and then stepped out of bounds before he threw it.  I'm not sure what that flag is for then.

It looks to me that B threw it (and threw if forward) before stepping out of bounds. If so, would we then have an illegal forward pass in the end zone on B resulting in a safety for A.  Note also that it was an incomplete pass eliminating any "recovery" by A.  B then has to choose to take the result of the play or accept the holding penalty on A.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1268
  • FAN REACTION: +64/-22
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 08:01:41 AM »
Since he never touched the ground inbounds with the ball, we can't have possession and therefore can't have a pass.  This is weird, but it's a "controlled batting" of the ball.  Illegal batting and holding would offset and replay the down.

Offline J12

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 11:16:38 AM »
Yes, you're correct.  Now that I consider the play again, even if he had come down and thrown an illegal forward pass, we'd have offsetting penalties.

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 451
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-31
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 12:52:03 PM »
Since he never touched the ground inbounds with the ball, we can't have possession and therefore can't have a pass.  This is weird, but it's a "controlled batting" of the ball.  Illegal batting and holding would offset and replay the down.

What do you mean he 'never touched the ground inbounds with the ball'? He clearly did. He recovered the fumble with one foot in the end zone, had it for about a second, then before the other foot hit the out-of-bounds line, threw a forwards pass.

It should have been an illegal forward pass by B. It would result in a safety for A, except for the holding penalty against A.

I think the covering official was really calling for an illegal forward pass (because of the timing and location of the flag) and was overruled by the referee who didn't want to call that. That's what it seems to be.

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 559
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 01:05:44 PM »
Here's a good what-if...

If R HAD come down with the ball in possession, then illegally tossed it forward, it would be an illegal forward pass after change of possession. They could decline the hold and keep the ball... except that the foul occurs in the end zone (behind the basic spot of the 20, since it was A's force into the endzone) -- and resulting in a safety. (So, they won't decline the hold, obviously, resulting in a double foul, replay the down)

Hypothetical part B -- what if A doesn't commit the holding foul.

Now, how long will it take to convince A's coach that they didn't recover the incomplete pass for a TD?


Offline J12

  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-4
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 02:20:16 PM »
WOW -- I'm getting confused.

Hypothetical B -- No penalty on A:

Obviously, A can accept the illegal forward pass and receive 2 points for a safety.  A cannot recover an incomplete forward pass -- I have to believe that just about all coaches realize that an illegal forward pass is still a forward pass. 

Once B recovers the ball in the end zone, is this now a running play for B?  The run then ending at the point he threw the illegal forward pass?  So then if A chooses to refuse the penalty for Illegal Forward Pass, do we have a run for B ending in the end zone for a safety?  But then does it matter that A put the ball in the end zone?

WOW! -- I'm confused!

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2215
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 02:50:08 PM »
Agreed that for the hypothetical, if A accepts the IFP penalty, they get the safety.

If the decline the penalty, they're the ones responsible for putting the ball into the end zone.  We'd have a TB, IMHO.  Just as we do if a B player were trying to run the ball out instead of throw it and were tackled in the EZ.

Offline refjeff

  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-17
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 06:53:16 AM »
Since he never touched the ground inbounds with the ball, we can't have possession and therefore can't have a pass.  This is weird, but it's a "controlled batting" of the ball.  Illegal batting and holding would offset and replay the down. 
If he hadn't got a foot down it would not have been a catch, but it wasn't a forward pass anyway, it was a recovered fumble.  Am I correct that for possession of a fumble all he has to do is hold or control the ball, and not get a foot down inbounds?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 10:42:50 AM by refjeff »

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 196
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 08:12:41 AM »
Since he never touched the ground inbounds with the ball, we can't have possession and therefore can't have a pass.  This is weird, but it's a "controlled batting" of the ball.  Illegal batting and holding would offset and replay the down.

By definition, there's no such thing as a controlled bat. See 2-2.

Agreed that for the hypothetical, if A accepts the IFP penalty, they get the safety.

If the decline the penalty, they're the ones responsible for putting the ball into the end zone.  We'd have a TB, IMHO.  Just as we do if a B player were trying to run the ball out instead of throw it and were tackled in the EZ.

Agreed on the touchback if the IFP is declined. The ball becomes dead in the EZ in B's possession after A forced it across the goal line. It's not a safety if the IFP is declined because there's no force by B from the field of play into the EZ.

If he hadn't got a foot down it would not have been a catch, put it wasn't a forward pass any, it was a recovered fumble.  Am I correct that for possession all he has to do is hold or control the ball?

He needs to contact the ground inbounds before the recovery is complete. See 2-36-1.

Offline refjeff

  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-17
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 10:45:57 AM »
He needs to contact the ground inbounds before the recovery is complete. See 2-36-1.
  When in doubt, look at Rule 2, Definitions.  90% of our questions are answered there.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 02:46:48 PM by refjeff »

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2215
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 11:17:23 AM »
Agreed that for the hypothetical, if A accepts the IFP penalty, they get the safety.

If the decline the penalty, they're the ones responsible for putting the ball into the end zone.  We'd have a TB, IMHO.  Just as we do if a B player were trying to run the ball out instead of throw it and were tackled in the EZ.

Agreed on the touchback if the IFP is declined. The ball becomes dead in the EZ in B's possession after A forced it across the goal line. It's not a safety if the IFP is declined because there's no force by B from the field of play into the EZ.

Sorry - which part are you commenting on? Both of your sentences talk about the IFP being declined.  If the IFP is accepted, they committed a foul behind the basic spot (since without the IFP, they'd have gotten a TB).  Fouls enforced behind the basic spot are enforced from where they occur, meaning it would be enforced in the EZ for a safety.  Wouldn't it?

Offline animalspooker

  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 02:16:53 PM »
The question should be, is a defensive penalty in their own EZ following recovery of a ball forced into the EZ by the offense, a safety or a touchback?  And if the penalty is accepted by A, how is it enforced?

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 196
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Illegal Forward Pass?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 05:08:49 PM »
Sorry - which part are you commenting on? Both of your sentences talk about the IFP being declined.  If the IFP is accepted, they committed a foul behind the basic spot (since without the IFP, they'd have gotten a TB).  Fouls enforced behind the basic spot are enforced from where they occur, meaning it would be enforced in the EZ for a safety.  Wouldn't it?

I was only commenting on the declined part where you said it would be a TB in your opinion. I was just agreeing that the rules fully support that being a TB and it couldn't be anything else.

The question should be, is a defensive penalty in their own EZ following recovery of a ball forced into the EZ by the offense, a safety or a touchback?  And if the penalty is accepted by A, how is it enforced?

The OP was a good question/topic in its own right, but to answer yours, if B recovers the ball then commits a foul in the EZ and A accepts the penalty, it's a safety. Basic spot is the end of the run (wherever that ends up being) and the spot of the foul is in the EZ. All-but-One, safety.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:15:41 PM by VA Official »