Author Topic: Blindside Block  (Read 1902 times)

Online PABJNR

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Blindside Block
« on: August 01, 2017, 05:44:15 AM »
Slot back in motion comes into the free blocking zone (was not in the zone at snap)  and initiates a blindside block to the linebacker in the free blocking zone with his shoulder.

A. Ball has not left the zone

B. Ball has left the zone i.e. A shotgun snap.

Foul for either? I have looked and can find no rules support for either scenario being a foul.


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2017, 06:32:10 AM »
To get free blocking zone protections, you must be in the free blocking zone at the snap and blocking somebody else who was in the free blocking zone at the snap. For offensive players, this requires you to be on the line of scrimmage as well.

The slot in motion cannot be on the line (lest he be in motion illegally), so any blindside block he commits (with force and not using open hands) would be a foul.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2017, 09:36:54 AM »
Any B player that is blocked needs to be on the LOS for the FBZ exception, also.

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2017, 10:28:34 AM »
Any B player that is blocked needs to be on the LOS for the FBZ exception, also.

Ralph,
That's the first I've seen that one.  Is there a reference?  I've been presuming that all the conditions that constitute the FBZ must be in place, but haven't seen the specificity for a (either A or B) player being on the LOS at the snap?  A BIB (with appropriate conditions) in the FBZ is still legal, correct?  I guess I was envisioning the BSB in the same light.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 10:38:15 AM »
Ralph,
That's the first I've seen that one.  Is there a reference?  I've been presuming that all the conditions that constitute the FBZ must be in place, but haven't seen the specificity for a (either A or B) player being on the LOS at the snap?  A BIB (with appropriate conditions) in the FBZ is still legal, correct?  I guess I was envisioning the BSB in the same light.
I wasn't clear. 2-17-2a requires both A & B players to be on the line for blocking below the waist. 2-17-3a & b requires  requires A to on the line and B to only be in the FBZ at the snap. Time for lunch :) !

Online PABJNR

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 10:45:30 AM »
This is the reason for my question:

9.4.3 No player or nonplayer shall:
m. Execute a blindside block outside of the free-blocking zone with forceful contact unless initiated with open hands.

2-17

ART 1...The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4 yards on either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of scrimmage.  A player is in the free-blocking zone when any part of his body is in the zone at the snap.

ART 2...Blocking below the waist is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. All players involved in the blocking are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. The contact is in the zone.

ART 3...Blocking in the back is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. By offensive lineman who are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. Against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap.
c. The contact is in the zone.

ART 4...The free-blocking zone disintegrates and the exception for a player to block below the waist and/or the exception for an offensive lineman to block in the back is not to continue after the ball has left the zone.


Nowhere can I find the requirements of who can perform a blindside block and/or who can receive a blindside block within the free blocking zone not initiated with open hands.  I can understand what the intent of the rule may have been. I am looking for rules support, which I do not believe exists.  I cant even find where the free blocking zone would disintegrate for this type of block as 2-17-4 specifically mentions only BIB/BBW.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 12:27:16 PM »

Nowhere can I find the requirements of who can perform a blindside block and/or who can receive a blindside block within the free blocking zone not initiated with open hands.  I can understand what the intent of the rule may have been. I am looking for rules support, which I do not believe exists.  I cant even find where the free blocking zone would disintegrate for this type of block as 2-17-4 specifically mentions only BIB/BBW.

Definition of a blindside block: “A blindside block is a block against an opponent other than the runner, who does not see the blocker approaching.”
Definition of a block in the back: “Blocking in the back is a block against an opponent when the initial contact is in the opponent’s back, inside the shoulders and below the helmet and above the waist, and not against a player who is a runner or pretending to be a runner.”

So all blocks in back are blindside blocks, but not all blindside blocks are blocks in the back.  Blindside blocks, from the front or side, can easily happen on a long kick return or after an interception, when one player "de-cleats" another player who did not see him coming.

Blocks in the back, either open handed or not, are legal in the FBZ, as long as the other requirements are met.
Blocks in the back, outside of the FBZ, are always illegal.
Blindside blocks, either open handed or not, are legal in the FBZ, as long as the other requirements are met.
Blindside blocks, outside of the FBZ, are legal as long as they are initiated with open hands.

 :!#

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 10:35:16 PM »
thank you, makes sense.

I've interpreted the provision allowing the BSB in the FBZ to allow for normal line play to occur as it always has.  I think that's what we're all saying.
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Offline jlesseig

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 10:59:22 PM »
I have had the privilege of being part of the experiment for two years one as a wing another as an umpire.*

this is a good explanation. use common sense. look for leading "open" hands. this is a good delimiter. if you can see hands in front of the body, let it go. head-hunting, brick carrying, tracking aside, this is about cheap hits with good criteria. targeting comes into play.

*We had to include the BSB personal foul in our press box briefing so they knew the signal. To do otherwise was a comedy on the PA system at that game.*

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Offline VA Official

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 08:44:33 AM »
This is the reason for my question:

9.4.3 No player or nonplayer shall:
m. Execute a blindside block outside of the free-blocking zone with forceful contact unless initiated with open hands.

2-17

ART 1...The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4 yards on either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of scrimmage.  A player is in the free-blocking zone when any part of his body is in the zone at the snap.

ART 2...Blocking below the waist is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. All players involved in the blocking are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. The contact is in the zone.

ART 3...Blocking in the back is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. By offensive lineman who are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. Against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap.
c. The contact is in the zone.

ART 4...The free-blocking zone disintegrates and the exception for a player to block below the waist and/or the exception for an offensive lineman to block in the back is not to continue after the ball has left the zone.


Nowhere can I find the requirements of who can perform a blindside block and/or who can receive a blindside block within the free blocking zone not initiated with open hands.  I can understand what the intent of the rule may have been. I am looking for rules support, which I do not believe exists.  I cant even find where the free blocking zone would disintegrate for this type of block as 2-17-4 specifically mentions only BIB/BBW.

Regarding 2-17-4, if you omit the "and" portion it reads "The free blocking zone disintegrates ... after the ball has left the zone." This is how it is intended to be read in reference to BSBs. As far as whether a player is required to be a lineman to blindside block in the FBZ, I don't see anything that requires that. The NFHS may need to clarify that further. As of now, as long as both players are within the FBZ at the snap and the FBZ hasn't disintegrated yet, the rule reads like there's no requirement for a player on either team to be on their line to BSB legally in the FBZ. I can't find a rule reference to contradict that.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 08:46:36 AM by VA Official »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 09:18:47 AM »

this is a good explanation. use common sense. look for leading "open" hands. this is a good delimiter. if you can see hands in front of the body, let it go. head-hunting, brick carrying, tracking aside, this is about cheap hits with good criteria. targeting comes into play. /quote]

Common sense is always a good idea.  As you suggest, the issue with a BSB is the unnecessary nature of the contact, which has been much more of a problem AWAY from the FBZ, than within it.  BSB is a "Personal Foul", not a blocking violation.  Within the FBZ, all sorts of people may be contacted by opponents they don't see, and whether or not such contact rises to the need for penalizing is dependent on the nature of the FORCE and/or INTENT of the contact.

It seems reasonable that rule makers exempted incidental HORSE HOCKEY contact in the FBZ, from BSB because of the constant congestion present in the FBZ. 

If contact in the FBZ, against an opponent, "who does not see the blocker approaching" is "deemed unnecessary or excessive and which incites roughness", NFHS 9-4-3g provides adequate remedy, and shares Signal 38 for explanation.

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Blindside Block
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 11:12:16 AM »
This is the reason for my question:

9.4.3 No player or nonplayer shall:
m. Execute a blindside block outside of the free-blocking zone with forceful contact unless initiated with open hands.

2-17

ART 1...The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4 yards on either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of scrimmage.  A player is in the free-blocking zone when any part of his body is in the zone at the snap.

ART 2...Blocking below the waist is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. All players involved in the blocking are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. The contact is in the zone.

ART 3...Blocking in the back is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:
a. By offensive lineman who are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.
b. Against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap.
c. The contact is in the zone.

ART 4...The free-blocking zone disintegrates and the exception for a player to block below the waist and/or the exception for an offensive lineman to block in the back is not to continue after the ball has left the zone.


Nowhere can I find the requirements of who can perform a blindside block and/or who can receive a blindside block within the free blocking zone not initiated with open hands.  I can understand what the intent of the rule may have been. I am looking for rules support, which I do not believe exists.  I cant even find where the free blocking zone would disintegrate for this type of block as 2-17-4 specifically mentions only BIB/BBW.

PAB,
understand your issue.  However, I think the rule support is there.  2-17-4 is an and statement addressing blocks.  However, the rule indicates the "zone disintegrates" when the ball leaves it.  So if we have no free blocking zone then rule involving BSB are in place and the associated conditions are correct.

At least this is my common sense interpretation.

I don't think it's a stretch to consider the BSB in the same light that we consider BIB relative to the FBZ. 

I guess there's an argument to be made that the rule coverage isn't there for a tight wingback or a fullback making a BSB...but, I'd think those to be rare.
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Blindside Block
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 12:14:16 PM »
Thanks for the input all, I appreciate it.


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