Author Topic: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.  (Read 769 times)

Offline HLTN

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Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« on: August 18, 2017, 11:49:30 AM »
Need a clarification, please.
R fields a free kick returns to K's 5 yard line.  R is guilty of  holding at the K 10.  R is tackled by the face mask at K's 5. 
R may decline the face mask penalty and have the ball 1st & 10 from K's 20.  Correct?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2017, 12:19:03 PM »
Yes.

R got the ball with "clean hands", so they can decline fouls by K and keep the ball after penalty enforcement.

Offline bmem66

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2017, 01:06:37 PM »
Don't they just offset?

Offline VA Official

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2017, 01:26:23 PM »
Don't they just offset?

If both are accepted, it's a double foul which results in the down being replayed. But, R has the option of declining the face mask foul by K in order to keep the ball (and they'll probably want to keep the ball since it was a huge return). This wouldn't be possible if R's foul occurred before they obtained possession (i.e., during the kick). This is the "clean hands" principle that NC referred to.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 01:30:03 PM by VA Official »

Offline bmem66

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2017, 01:38:11 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.   In general, on double fouls do both teams have the option to decline the penalty if by accepting it wipes out a big advantage on their end?   I can't think of any other examples when once would be accepted and one not accepted except on a change of possession. 

Offline VA Official

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2017, 01:55:05 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.   In general, on double fouls do both teams have the option to decline the penalty if by accepting it wipes out a big advantage on their end?   I can't think of any other examples when once would be accepted and one not accepted except on a change of possession.

10-2-1 does not allow the option to avoid replaying the down when there are live-ball fouls by both teams and there is no change of possession on the play. Thus, the penalties cancel and the down must be replayed. There also is no option and the down must be replayed if there's a double foul and the team in final possession committed a foul prior to gaining possession (not getting the ball with "clean hands"). Here's a situation where there's no change of possession and the offense would want to decline the penalty, but they don't have the option.

Ball's at the A-10. Prior to a legal forward pass, B1 blocks A1 illegally below the waist. The pass is caught by A2, who runs for a big gain and goes out of bounds at the B-10. During A2's run, A3 holds B3 at the B-15. Team A would want to decline the block below the waist by B to get the ball at the B-25 after the holding enforcement, but they can't because by rule the penalties cancel and the down is replayed.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:25:38 PM by VA Official »

Offline VALJ

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2017, 01:08:29 PM »
VA Official has it in one.  If both team commit live ball fouls (not including a foul enforced as a dead ball like a USC), the only way either team can avoid a double foul is if there is a change in possession, and the team who ended up with the ball at the end of the play got the ball with clean hands. In that case, they can decline the opponent's foul, have their foul enforced, and keep the ball.

Offline BIG UMP

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2017, 01:40:58 PM »
VA Official has it in one.  If both team commit live ball fouls (not including a foul enforced as a dead ball like a USC), the only way either team can avoid a double foul is if there is a change in possession, and the team who ended up with the ball at the end of the play got the ball with clean hands. In that case, they can decline the opponent's foul, have their foul enforced, and keep the ball.

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 07:47:59 AM »
This is a situation where many a coach of the team with the ball will seem to be unfair.
A rebuttal could be :

"COACH,  BY RULE,YOU NEED TO DECLINE THEIR PENALTY TO KEEP THE BALL..."

'TIS BETTER TO AIM HIS ANGER AT THE RULES COMMITTEE THAN YOU ;)
R

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2017, 09:03:15 AM »
Are these rulings correct?

Play: K1 kicks off from the 40 to start the game.

(a) DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R10 retailiates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50. Kick fair caught at the 20.

R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the PSK R foul is enforced from the 20 to the 10, R ball 1st and 10 at the 10. (10-2-3)

(b)  DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R5 catches the ball at the R20, THEN R10 retaliates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50.

R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the R foul is enforced from the 20 to the 10, R ball 1st and 10 at the 10.

(c)  DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R5 catches the ball at the R20, THEN R5 holds in the R's end zone.
R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the R foul is enforced from the end zone, SAFETY.

This has me thinking of this one here:

:03 left in game. K leading 17-10, kicking off from the 40.
DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R10 retailiates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50. Kick caught at the 20. Tackled at the 25 as time expires.

There are a heck of a lot of options on this play.
My first thought is that it's a double foul - penalties offset, R wants a re kick to have another chance at scoring.

BUT....
According to the rulebook, it's R's option (as the team last having possession) FIRST. If they ACCEPT K's penalty, hoping for the double-foul, K can either DECLINE the penalty, and give R the ball 1st and 10 at the R40, or K can ACCEPT the penalty and re-kick from the K40.

R can't DECLINE K's penalty, because K would just DECLINE R's penalty, game over.

So, it's actually K's option whether they want to re-kick from the K40 or give R the ball 1st and 10 at the R40. Correct?

« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:36:53 AM by bbeagle »

Offline Ump33

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2017, 10:13:53 AM »
Are these rulings correct?

Play: K1 kicks off from the 40 to start the game.

(a) DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R10 retailiates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50. Kick fair caught at the 20.

R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the PSK R foul is enforced from the 20 to the 10, R ball 1st and 10 at the 10. (10-2-3)

(b)  DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R5 catches the ball at the R20, THEN R10 retaliates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50.

R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the R foul is enforced from the 20 to the 10, R ball 1st and 10 at the 10.

(c)  DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R5 catches the ball at the R20, THEN R5 holds in the R's end zone.
R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the R foul is enforced from the end zone, SAFETY.

This has me thinking of this one here:

:03 left in game. K leading 17-10, kicking off from the 40.
DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R10 retailiates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50. Kick caught at the 20. Tackled at the 25 as time expires.

There are a heck of a lot of options on this play.
My first thought is that it's a double foul - penalties offset, R wants a re kick to have another chance at scoring.

BUT....
According to the rulebook, it's R's option (as the team last having possession) FIRST. If they ACCEPT K's penalty, hoping for the double-foul, K can either DECLINE the penalty, and give R the ball 1st and 10 at the R40, or K can ACCEPT the penalty and re-kick from the K40.

R can't DECLINE K's penalty, because K would just DECLINE R's penalty, game over.

So, it's actually K's option whether they want to re-kick from the K40 or give R the ball 1st and 10 at the R40. Correct?
You stated these plays are Kick-off and PSK does not apply on Free Kicks.
Play A ... R did not get the ball with "clean hands" = Double Foul = Replay
Play B ... Since R got the ball with "clean hands", they may decline K's foul and K may accept R's foul and it will be enforced per a "running play" (most likely the EOR unless the EOR was beyond the spot of the foul).
Play C ... Yes, R's best option is to accept K's foul and create a double foul.
"thinking play" ... Since both fouls happened during the kick, this is a double foul. Only option is the replay with an untimed down

Offline VA Official

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Re: Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2017, 10:20:12 AM »
Are these rulings correct?

Play: K1 kicks off from the 40 to start the game.

(a) DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R10 retailiates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50. Kick fair caught at the 20.

R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the PSK R foul is enforced from the 20 to the 10, R ball 1st and 10 at the 10. (10-2-3)

(b)  DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R5 catches the ball at the R20, THEN R10 retaliates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50.

R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the R foul is enforced from the 20 to the 10, R ball 1st and 10 at the 10.

(c)  DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R5 catches the ball at the R20, THEN R5 holds in the R's end zone.
R has the option of:
 - Offsetting fouls. Rekick.
 - Decline K's penalty, the R foul is enforced from the end zone, SAFETY.

This has me thinking of this one here:

:03 left in game. K leading 17-10, kicking off from the 40.
DURING the kick, K4 grabs R10's facemask at the 50. R10 retailiates and grabs K4's facemask at the 50. Kick caught at the 20. Tackled at the 25 as time expires.

There are a heck of a lot of options on this play.
My first thought is that it's a double foul - penalties offset, R wants a re kick to have another chance at scoring.

BUT....
According to the rulebook, it's R's option (as the team last having possession) FIRST. If they ACCEPT K's penalty, hoping for the double-foul, K can either DECLINE the penalty, and give R the ball 1st and 10 at the R40, or K can ACCEPT the penalty and re-kick from the K40.

R can't DECLINE K's penalty, because K would just DECLINE R's penalty, game over.

So, it's actually K's option whether they want to re-kick from the K40 or give R the ball 1st and 10 at the R40. Correct?

A.) No PSK on free kicks. PSK is post-scrimmage kick. R did not receive the ball with clean hands, so we have a double foul. No options. Re-kick.

B.) R has the option of declining K's foul to keep the ball since they obtained possession with clean hands. The basic spot is the end of the run. If the end of the run is the R-20, then that's where you enforce.

C.) Correct. Clean hands again, so they have those options.

Your last play is only a double foul. R did not receive the ball with clean hands, so they don't have the option to accept or decline. Neither does K. Double foul, re-kick, extend the period for an untimed down.

Edit: Ump beat me to it!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 10:22:08 AM by VA Official »

Offline PABJNR

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Clarification, please. Double foul on free kick.
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 08:48:33 AM »
When there are live fouls on both teams with change of possession or PSK and B or R can keep the ball by declining a penalty and the team in possession accepts the penalty the other team has no options.  If the team in possession accepts the penalty it becomes a double foul where by rule the penalties cancel and the down is replayed. 

The team not in possession only has options should the team in possession decline the foul. Their options then to decline or accept the penalty only affect where the new series will start.


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« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 08:50:57 AM by PABJNR »