Author Topic: Option or No Option?  (Read 4719 times)

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 196
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Option or No Option?
« on: August 22, 2017, 09:40:50 PM »
Here's a topic from our association meeting:

A is tackled inbounds with 1:45 left in the 2nd quarter. During the play, B is flagged for a sideline warning. Does A have the option to start the clock on the snap?

Here's the point of contention. 3-4-7: "When a penalty is accepted with less than two minutes remaining in either half, the offended team will have the option to start the game clock on the snap." Does the offended team "accept the penalty" for a sideline warning? If so, does that mean they somehow have the ability to decline it if they wished to?

My take is that A has the option to start on the snap.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:31:18 PM by VA Official »

Offline Jackhammer

  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-5
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2017, 09:46:48 PM »
IMO there is no "penalty" for a sideline warning. 


« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 09:50:04 PM by Jackhammer »
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3424
  • FAN REACTION: +259/-498
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2017, 10:21:51 PM »
NFHS 9-8-1 (NonContact USC by Non-players) identifies 9-8-1-k as, "Being outside the team box, but not on the field" and references 9-8-3.

The last sentence of 9-8-3 states, " No player, non-player of coach shall be in the restricted area when the ball is alive.

The appropriate "Penalty" instructions for (9-8) Article 3 suggests "Non-player foul - First Offense- (S15)-Warning, Second Offense (S7-29)-5 yards, Each subsequent offense (S7-29-27)-15 yards.

That initial warning is clearly identified as a penalty, without any option for rejection, suggesting that when a "warning" is given, the appropriately proscribed penalty is "accepted", and if this foul and penalty was administered with less that 2 minutes remaining in either half, according to NFHS 3-4-7, which does not differentiate between types of penalties, provides the offended team would, indeed, be entitled to the option to start the game clock on the snap.

That enforcement seems perfectly in line with the stated consequence of providing a unique "timing" option for ANY violation committed with "less than 2 minutes in either half".   

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2215
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 07:34:32 AM »
The appropriate "Penalty" instructions for (9-8) Article 3 suggests "Non-player foul - First Offense- (S15)-Warning, Second Offense (S7-29)-5 yards, Each subsequent offense (S7-29-27)-15 yards.

That initial warning is clearly identified as a penalty, without any option for rejection, suggesting that when a "warning" is given, the appropriately proscribed penalty is "accepted", and if this foul and penalty was administered with less that 2 minutes remaining in either half, according to NFHS 3-4-7, which does not differentiate between types of penalties, provides the offended team would, indeed, be entitled to the option to start the game clock on the snap.

That's ultimately the conclusion we came to during the meeting as well. 

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2660
  • FAN REACTION: +325/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 07:41:34 AM »
IMHO, the sideline warning, with flag & signal, is a penalty without yardage and would fall under the new rule.

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 196
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 08:44:44 AM »
... the offended team would, indeed, be entitled to the option to start the game clock on the snap.

That enforcement seems perfectly in line with the stated consequence of providing a unique "timing" option for ANY violation committed with "less than 2 minutes in either half".   

As VALJ said, that is the conclusion we came to. There were some others who did not agree, citing the same thing Jackhammer said about a warning not being a penalty.

IMHO, the sideline warning, with flag & signal, is a penalty without yardage and would fall under the new rule.

That's exactly my thinking Ralph. Sideline warning is the foul, the prescribed penalty is a warning for the first offense, and this penalty is always accepted. Accepted penalty = timing options for the offended team.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 09:03:30 AM by VA Official »

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2215
  • FAN REACTION: +81/-12
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 10:45:46 AM »
Of course, someone suggested in the meeting that we reach out to our state interpreter for his opinion, but nobody listened to said suggestion...   tiphat:

Offline BIG UMP

  • *
  • Posts: 175
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-1
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 04:07:50 PM »
I'm going to be the devil's advocate.  If this is a penalty then the offended team should have the option to decline, when was the last time anyone asked them if they wanted to decline.  In my opinion this is a foul with no penalty until the second occurrence.
Big Ump
aka Shawn

"EVERY JOB IS A SELF-PORTRAIT OF THE PERSON WHO DID IT.  AUTOGRAPH YOUR WORK WITH EXCELLENCE."~unknown

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3424
  • FAN REACTION: +259/-498
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 05:29:55 PM »
I'm going to be the devil's advocate.  If this is a penalty then the offended team should have the option to decline, when was the last time anyone asked them if they wanted to decline.  In my opinion this is a foul with no penalty until the second occurrence.

Let's be honest, the infraction drawing a warning, in the vast majority of circumstances has been preceded by (depending on the wing official) a sequence of gentle reminders to sideline personnel to pay attention to where they are.  The "First" official "warning" (and flag) is more like a "Hey' I really mean it" emphasis added to the request, and is INTENDED to garner attention that has thus far failed to materialize.

If ANY coach hasn't gotten the message before the 2:00 minute mark of either half, additional persuasive pressure is appropriate, if not long overdue, and adding the tiny disincentive of allowing the opponent to exercise the new clock option, seems, at worst, a very tepid inducement.    Suggesting, even the remote possibility of offering the opponent an opportunity to "decline the (necessity of a ) warning is, for want of a better word, ridiculous.

Sometimes we all just have to behave like adults, or accept the consequences of having to be prodded for acting like children.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 05:31:53 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 559
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 08:45:43 PM »
IMHO, the sideline warning, with flag & signal, is a penalty without yardage and would fall under the new rule.

Of course, round these parts, we've been instructed not to throw a flag for the warning... 'cause there's no yardage penalty...  :sTiR:

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +329/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 10:07:34 PM »
Of course, round these parts, we've been instructed not to throw a flag for the warning... 'cause there's no yardage penalty...  :sTiR:
+1
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline zoom

  • *
  • Posts: 180
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-3
Option or No Option?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 03:40:20 AM »
We should not be waiting until the end of the 2nd (or 4th!) Quarter to throw a flag for a sideline warning.  This should not be an issue.  They have certainly been in violation of the rule for the whole game and we should be banging them for it earlier than the end of the half.

That being said, it does qualify for the new option for the offended team, in my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Offline Kevin Durst

  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 08:36:45 AM »
We should not be waiting until the end of the 2nd (or 4th!) Quarter to throw a flag for a sideline warning.  This should not be an issue.  They have certainly been in violation of the rule for the whole game and we should be banging them for it earlier than the end of the half.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
[/quote

Maybe they have not been in violation the whole game. Maybe this is the first time the sideline violation has occurred and now you are taking action to nip it in the bud and keep it from happening again.  But the point of the question is, if it is called at this point, how is it handled with the new timing rule.  Is sounds like it meets the criteria and the offended team has the option about not starting the clock until the snap.

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 451
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-31
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 04:03:05 PM »
We should not be waiting until the end of the 2nd (or 4th!) Quarter to throw a flag for a sideline warning.  This should not be an issue.  They have certainly been in violation of the rule for the whole game and we should be banging them for it earlier than the end of the half.

While I agree with this 'in principle' if the coach has been all over the field during the game, this isn't always the case.

Sometimes the coach is fine until 4:00 left in the 4th quarter. Say, his team was ahead 28-7 since the end of the first quarter. He's been calm all game. Suddenly, he's only up 28-22 with 4:00 left on very questionable (to him) referee calls. Now he has a chance at losing this game, the coach becomes more animated, and he's toeing the line the past few minutes about what is reasonable....

Now, with :10 left, the opposing team runs from their 40 for a 50 yard gain to the 10 INBOUNDS, no timeouts left, :02 on the clock.... but we missed a big giant HOLD... OMG! He's furious running down to the 10 yard line upset at the linesman who missed the call.

Now, he's not berating the official enough for an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, but he's out of his box... should this be a sideline warning with :02 left? Should the opposing team get the clock started on the snap at :02 instead of the ready after the chains move?


Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3424
  • FAN REACTION: +259/-498
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 04:52:11 PM »
According to the new 3-4-7 ABSOLUTELY.  We are ALL responsible for our own personal behavior.  Instead of the trailing team advancing to mid field, with 0.02 remaining (can't tell if it was a first down, or not) ABSENT the penalty, Clock would star on the ready, play may, or may not, get off.

Coach failed to control his emotions, EARNED an USC flag PROVIDING his opponent a guaranteed opportunity to snatch victory from defeat.  Whose fault is that?

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Just an observation

A Sideline Warning is NOT Foul - For support please see:
2-16-1...A foul is a rule infraction for which a penalty is prescribed. (There is no prescribed penalty for a Sideline Warning; conclusion, it is not a foul))
2-16-2...Sideline warning is not included in this rule which defines all types of fouls; conclusion; Sideline Warning is not a foul.
2-16-5...A penalty is a result imposed by rule against a team or team member that has committed a foul. (There is no penalty for this act so it can not be a foul)
3-4-7...When a penalty is accepted...(There is no penalty to accept)
 and last but not least,
Page 83, Football Fundamental X.2...Penalties are either 5, 10 or 15 yards  (Sideline Warning has no penalty so SW can not be a foul!)

Conclusion 1:  3-4-7 is not applicable to Sideline Warnings
Conclusion 2: Sideline Warning needs to be listed in Rule 2-16-6 so that this silly conversation never surfaces again.

But then again, that is just my observation!

« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:55:17 PM by KWH »

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2017, 05:39:39 PM »
NFHS 9-8-1 (NonContact USC by Non-players) identifies 9-8-1-k as, "Being outside the team box, but not on the field" and references 9-8-3.

The last sentence of 9-8-3 states, " No player, non-player of coach shall be in the restricted area when the ball is alive.

The appropriate "Penalty" instructions for (9-8) Article 3 suggests "Non-player foul - First Offense- (S15)-Warning, Second Offense (S7-29)-5 yards, Each subsequent offense (S7-29-27)-15 yards.

That initial warning is clearly identified as a penalty, without any option for rejection, suggesting that when a "warning" is given, the appropriately proscribed penalty is "accepted", and if this foul and penalty was administered with less that 2 minutes remaining in either half, according to NFHS 3-4-7, which does not differentiate between types of penalties, provides the offended team would, indeed, be entitled to the option to start the game clock on the snap.

That enforcement seems perfectly in line with the stated consequence of providing a unique "timing" option for ANY violation committed with "less than 2 minutes in either half".   

Except that Rule 3-4-7 states quite clearly ...When a penalty is accepted... and NOT ...for ANY violation as you suggest.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:50:01 PM by KWH »

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Game Official Manual says to drop a marker for a Sideline Warning
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2017, 05:54:10 PM »
Of course, round these parts, we've been instructed not to throw a flag for the warning... 'cause there's no yardage penalty...  :sTiR:

A sideline warning requires the dropping of a penalty marker. Reference 2016 and 2017 NFLS Football Game Officials Manual,
Page 21 - CONTROLLING THE SIDELINE AND TEAM BOX
II. FIRST VIOLATION BY TEAM
B. Covering official sound whistle, drop penalty marker, give proper signal, then report infraction fo referee.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:56:12 PM by KWH »

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3424
  • FAN REACTION: +259/-498
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2017, 09:23:49 AM »
Except that Rule 3-4-7 states quite clearly ...When a penalty is accepted... and NOT ...for ANY violation as you suggest. 

Sorry you misread my observation, "The appropriate "Penalty" instructions for (9-8) Article 3 suggests "Non-player foul - First Offense- (S15)-Warning, Second Offense (S7-29)-5 yards, Each subsequent offense (S7-29-27)-15 yards. (NFHS Rule Book, Rule 9-8 "PENALTY", pg 75.) describes the recommended protocol for enforcing the PENALTY applied for the VIOLATION of Rule 9-8-1k 

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 569
  • FAN REACTION: +17/-21
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Option or No Option?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2017, 11:20:19 AM »
I'm going to be the devil's advocate.  If this is a penalty then the offended team should have the option to decline, when was the last time anyone asked them if they wanted to decline.  In my opinion this is a foul with no penalty until the second occurrence.
To me, that's no different than not asking the offended team when the foul and the run end in the end zone for a safety. Although there is no opportunity to decline, it's still an "accepted" penalty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline SCHSref

  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-9
  • In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2017, 07:31:44 PM »
I'm going to be the devil's advocate.  If this is a penalty then the offended team should have the option to decline, when was the last time anyone asked them if they wanted to decline.  In my opinion this is a foul with no penalty until the second occurrence.

I think the rule book states that the offended team may decline the distance of any penalty.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • FAN REACTION: +80/-39
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2017, 01:54:08 PM »
Sorry you misread my observation, "The appropriate "Penalty" instructions for (9-8) Article 3 suggests "Non-player foul - First Offense- (S15)-Warning, Second Offense (S7-29)-5 yards, Each subsequent offense (S7-29-27)-15 yards. (NFHS Rule Book, Rule 9-8 "PENALTY", pg 75.) describes the recommended protocol for enforcing the PENALTY applied for the VIOLATION of Rule 9-8-1k

Sorry you are misreading the Rules Book.
2-16-1...A foul is a rule infraction for which a penalty is prescribed.
2-16-5...A penalty is a result imposed by rule against a team or team member that has committed a foul.
FUND X.2. Penalties are either 5, 10 or 15 yards
Sideline WARNING (Signal 15) is not listed on Page 90 or 91.  WHY? Because its not a Foul! And, without a Foul, You can't have a penalty! (See 2-16-1)

Google: WARNING...a statement or event that indicates a possible or impending problem.

Question: How would the offended team ever Accept of Decline a SIDELINE WARNING???

Alf - You are hanging your hat on a PENALTY SUMMARY which has been written as is for many years and is now allegedly muddling the waters in Upstate NY due to new rule 3-4-7
So, Alf, How would you then rewrite that particular Penalty Summary to clarify a WARNING is not a foul and a WARNING has no penalty and clarify the intent of the Rules Committee to even those folks in Upper NY that 3-4-7 would never be used in conjunction with a SW.

One last thought; If you ever actually wait until the last two minutes of a half to throw a sideline warning flag, perhaps we may need to discuss differing methods as to how you might better control your sideline.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 01:57:19 PM by KWH »

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 196
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-6
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2017, 03:53:32 PM »
Sorry you are misreading the Rules Book.
2-16-1...A foul is a rule infraction for which a penalty is prescribed.
2-16-5...A penalty is a result imposed by rule against a team or team member that has committed a foul.
FUND X.2. Penalties are either 5, 10 or 15 yards
Sideline WARNING (Signal 15) is not listed on Page 90 or 91.  WHY? Because its not a Foul! And, without a Foul, You can't have a penalty! (See 2-16-1)

Google: WARNING...a statement or event that indicates a possible or impending problem.

Question: How would the offended team ever Accept of Decline a SIDELINE WARNING???

Alf - You are hanging your hat on a PENALTY SUMMARY which has been written as is for many years and is now allegedly muddling the waters in Upstate NY due to new rule 3-4-7
So, Alf, How would you then rewrite that particular Penalty Summary to clarify a WARNING is not a foul and a WARNING has no penalty and clarify the intent of the Rules Committee to even those folks in Upper NY that 3-4-7 would never be used in conjunction with a SW.

One last thought; If you ever actually wait until the last two minutes of a half to throw a sideline warning flag, perhaps we may need to discuss differing methods as to how you might better control your sideline.

FWIW, this is something that's probably best left up to your individual state interpreter, as VALJ said before, because no matter what either side tries to assert, it's not clearly spelled out in the rules. For us in VA, our interpreter has decided a sideline warning is an accepted penalty, so we should invoke the 2 minute option. Other states may differ.

The most compelling interpretation that I've heard is whether the warning is accepted or declined is of no consequence to anyone, because the penalty states "1st offense" not "1st accepted penalty." This means the sideline protocol continues to the next stage regardless of acceptance or declination. Since a warning has no bearing whatsoever on the offended team, and has no bearing on the progression of the sideline protocol, the penalty is always accepted without inquiry. Again, this is one interpretation for one side.

Also, it's very possible to have a team with a clean sideline for an entire half up until the last 2 minutes when the intensity of the game picks up, as was stated above.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 06:26:21 PM by VA Official »

Offline red viking

  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2017, 04:31:57 PM »
You have to at least consider the intent of the rule. If the administration of the penalty causes exta time to wind off the clock and therefore hurts the offended team I would give them the option.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3424
  • FAN REACTION: +259/-498
Re: Option or No Option?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2017, 06:22:16 PM »
Sorry you are misreading the Rules Book.
Sideline WARNING (Signal 15) is not listed on Page 90 or 91.  WHY? Because its not a Foul! And, without a Foul, You can't have a penalty! (See 2-16-1)

Google: WARNING...a statement or event that indicates a possible or impending problem.

Question: How would the offended team ever Accept of Decline a SIDELINE WARNING???

Alf - You are hanging your hat on a PENALTY SUMMARY which has been written as is for many years and is now allegedly muddling the waters in Upstate NY due to new rule 3-4-7
So, Alf, How would you then rewrite that particular Penalty Summary to clarify a WARNING is not a foul and a WARNING has no penalty and clarify the intent of the Rules Committee to even those folks in Upper NY that 3-4-7 would never be used in conjunction with a SW.

One last thought; If you ever actually wait until the last two minutes of a half to throw a sideline warning flag, perhaps we may need to discuss differing methods as to how you might better control your sideline.


I absolutely agree, that "misreading the rule book" is an occupational hazard that constantly challenges all of us, which may be why; The Prerequisites for Good Officiating sub-section of Basic Philosophy & Principles in the Game Officials Manual advises, "Game officials must have a football sense which supersedes the technical application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly.  Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules." (Pg 5).
'
NFHS 2-16-1 does in fact, define a "Penalty".  As does the "Penalty" descriptions for Rule 9-8 (Pg 75), which instructs for Article 1k ("Being outside the team box, but not on the field (9-8-3), 3 - Non-player foul -First offense-(S15) - warning, second offense...

My Rule Book, includes on page 90, #26, Under Penalty Summary, Loss of 5 Yds: Nonplayer outside of the team box but not on the field... 9-8-3.

Sometimes unfortunately, I have nowhere but to hang my hat, on what happens to be written in the current version of the NFHS rule book, regardless of how long it has remained unchanged, or whether I agree with it.  I am not aware that this new rule is "muddling the waters in Upstate NY due to new rule 3-4-7", any more than it might be ANYWHERE else, and I have no authority, nor interest in rewriting it, or any Penalty Summary currently listed.

I was not aware that there was ANY significant confusion about, what seems like a straightforward application of a seemingly clear directive obviously designed to emphasize the unnecessary safety risk of violating the previously prudent established sideline safety protocols designed to protect officials, players and non-players alike.

The judgement to apply this added "timing" element to the existing "penalty" of publicly identifying a team as violating an important safety protocol by flagging and publicly warning a team of their violation seems in line with the necessity of applying and "exercise good judgment in applying the rules" recommended by, "The Prerequisites for Good Officiating sub-section.

The question of an offended team "declining" a warning being issued seems analogous to an offended team declining the disqualification of an opponent, which logic might consider an administrative prerogative.

Of course this is only my personal conclusion, based on my assessment.  You may reach a different conclusion.  For the record, the correct spelling of my name is simply "Al".
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 06:38:05 PM by AlUpstateNY »