Author Topic: bad punt snap  (Read 1821 times)

Offline refjeff

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bad punt snap
« on: August 26, 2017, 05:03:08 PM »
Had this Saturday morning.  K was punting from deep in their own territory and the punter couldn't handle the high and off target snap.  By the time he ran down the bouncing ball two players from R were almost on him so he headed for his own goalline trying for a safety.   R caught him on the 3, wrapped him up on the 2, and finally got him tackled to the ground in the end zone. 

I know what I ruled, what do you think?

Offline VA Official

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 05:46:51 PM »
Had this Saturday morning.  K was punting from deep in their own territory and the punter couldn't handle the high and off target snap.  By the time he ran down the bouncing ball two players from R were almost on him so he headed for his own goalline trying for a safety.   R caught him on the 3, wrapped him up on the 2, and finally got him tackled to the ground in the end zone. 

I know what I ruled, what do you think?

2-15-1 specifies forward progress as the end of advancement toward the opponents goal. Intentionally running toward your own goal isn't covered under forward progress. Safety.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 06:45:36 PM by VA Official »

Online BIG UMP

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2017, 03:01:59 PM »
Keep thinking about this one, let me be the devil's advocate.

K is running towards his own GL.  He is wrapped up and driven into his own EZ.  Now, he is running towards his own EZ but that technically is backwards.  Where he is wrapped up and driven into his EZ is that not the spot of forward progress.  So R ball 1/G @ K2.  I understand safety but couldn't a coach argue forward progress.  It won't be Ks coach either, he'll be happy giving up 2 pts. rather that 1/G.
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2017, 03:09:34 PM »
Where the player is 'wrapped up' is the spot of forward progress. This should be 1 & G for Team B at the 2.

I wouldn't give the punter credit for taking a safety he didn't earn.

Offline VA Official

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2017, 03:14:22 PM »
Where the player is 'wrapped up' is the spot of forward progress. This should be 1 & G for Team B at the 2.

I wouldn't give the punter credit for taking a safety he didn't earn.

My counterargument would be that 2-15-1 says "end of advancement toward the opponents goal," and if the advancement toward the opponents goal never began (i.e., punter retreating and running towards his own goal), how can it end? I personally say forward progress doesn't cover this play, therefore we have a safety. I understand your point, I just don't think it has rule support.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 03:20:20 PM by VA Official »

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 07:20:32 AM »
Often a scrambling QB is wrapped up while retreating. IMHO, that's where his forward progress has stopped.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 07:27:37 AM »
I personally say forward progress doesn't cover this play, therefore we have a safety. I understand your point, I just don't think it has rule support.

I don't agree.

What about the same play where there is a high snap, and the punter turns around, chases the ball, recovers the ball at the 50 while still moving backwards. The defense wraps up the punter, and continues to wrap him up all the way to the goal line - for 50 yards.

By your ruling, this would be a safety - which is ridiculous. His forward progress stopped where he was wrapped up. Or then, any play where a runner is wrapped up while that runner is going backwards, the defense can 'carry' him into the end zone for a safety.


Offline VA Official

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 09:45:03 AM »
I don't agree.

What about the same play where there is a high snap, and the punter turns around, chases the ball, recovers the ball at the 50 while still moving backwards. The defense wraps up the punter, and continues to wrap him up all the way to the goal line - for 50 yards.

By your ruling, this would be a safety - which is ridiculous. His forward progress stopped where he was wrapped up. Or then, any play where a runner is wrapped up while that runner is going backwards, the defense can 'carry' him into the end zone for a safety.

In that play, I would judge that the punter was attempting to advance toward the opponents goal line once he recovered the ball / was wrapped up and use forward progress. Same for if the QB scrambles backward in an attempt to avoid tacklers and tries to continue advancement after. His backward movement is an attempt to avoid tacklers and ultimately advance. That's not the case in the OP, so I don't see it as one in the same. Just my interpretation though.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 09:47:25 AM by VA Official »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 02:41:20 PM »
I searched Rule 2, but couldn't find the actual definition of "wrapped up", which may be why to make a rational judgment about many, even most, if not all "bang-bang" situations people try to describe, your REALLY have to SEE what actually happened to understand how THAT PARTICULAR PLAY is appropriate for what rule (definition).

It's usually more effective to apply a rule to what you actually see, than try and fit what you've been told into a rule. It's also best to thoroughly understand the requirements of a rule, before trying to apply it to what you're looking at.

Offline CalhounLJ

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bad punt snap
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2017, 08:57:03 PM »
If this play happened to the QB, and he turned and ran toward his own goal line to avoid a sack I would mark him down where he was tackled. If he runs toward the ez and the tackle was not completed until then, I would have a safety. I don't see any difference in this play. If he wants a safety that bad I'm gonna oblige.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 06:33:02 AM »
If the K & R were reversed, would you rule a TD for the runner?  If so, safety.

Offline Eastshire

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 11:51:02 AM »
If the K & R were reversed, would you rule a TD for the runner?  If so, safety.

I'm not sure this works as an argument. If K and R were reversed, then there can be no question that R's forward progress hasn't ended as he's being tackled in the direction of his forward progress.

Offline Curious

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 12:12:29 PM »
FWIW, isn't K's "forward progress" the point (not specified in the OP) where, while in possession, he is closest to his opponent's GL?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 12:47:22 PM »
FWIW, isn't K's "forward progress" the point (not specified in the OP) where, while in possession, he is closest to his opponent's GL?

I think that's oversimplifying -- A (or K) can concede ground. Otherwise, you couldn't be tackled for a loss because the closest to the GL couldn't be worse than the previous spot.

The question is where is the line between K conceding ground and R pushing him backwards.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 06:12:57 AM »
One of our instructors, many years ago now, described "forward progress" in a simple way that in my opinion fits virtually all scenarios.  It went something like:

"When you have decided that the defense has possession and control of the runner and it is obvious that the runner has been stopped, the dead ball spot is the most forward point toward the defenders goal line where that possession and control started."

Which way the runner is headed has no bearing on the spot. If you award a safety here, you're effectively rewarding the runner for not getting to the EZ, and failing to reward the tackler for getting him before he got to the EZ.  Should be B's ball, 1st and goal.
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Offline VA Official

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Re: bad punt snap
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 09:16:33 AM »
If you award a safety here, you're effectively rewarding the runner for not getting to the EZ, and failing to reward the tackler for getting him before he got to the EZ.  Should be B's ball, 1st and goal.

I could counter that the runner did in fact get into the EZ, and the tackler shouldn't be rewarded for not tackling the runner to the ground in time, just as if the players were reversed and this was a TD scenario. To each his own. It's all in how you interpret "end of advancement" in the definition of forward progress in 2-15-1.