Author Topic: Untimed down(s)?  (Read 1652 times)

Offline HLTN

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Untimed down(s)?
« on: August 26, 2017, 08:22:53 PM »
Time expires during the final play of the first half.  During the play, B commits a foul. 
A accepts the penalty and during the untimed down attempts a field goal.  The field goal is blocked and picked up by B.  B is in possession of the ball with an open field ahead.  An inadvertent whistle sounds. 
Does B have the option of an untimed down?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 08:24:50 PM by HLTN »

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 08:29:38 PM »
Time expires during the final play of the first half.  During the play, B commits a foul. 
A accepts the penalty and during the untimed down attempts a field goal.  The field goal is blocked and picked up by B.  B is in possession of the ball with an open field ahead.  An inadvertent whistle sounds. 
Does B have the option of an untimed down?

In my opinion, no.  Per 4-2-3c, the receiving team in this instance can elect to accept the results of the play or replay the down.  If R accepts the result of the play, the half is over.  If R elects to replay the down, K will have an opportunity to attempt another field goal.

Offline HLTN

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 08:33:08 PM »
That was my thought, too.  Not my game, but the crew got it right. Bad situation!

Offline VA Official

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 01:26:15 AM »
In my opinion, no.  Per 4-2-3c, the receiving team in this instance can elect to accept the results of the play or replay the down.  If R accepts the result of the play, the half is over.  If R elects to replay the down, K will have an opportunity to attempt another field goal.

What about 3-3-3c that says if an inadvertent whistle occurs, there has to be an untimed down? In my opinion, this means that a period can never end on an inadvertent whistle, even in the above situation. This means R could take the ball at the dead-ball spot and have an untimed down. 3-3-3 specifies that if the situations occur during an untimed down, the procedure is repeated and there's another untimed down.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 01:29:15 AM by VA Official »

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 07:25:04 PM »
What about 3-3-3c that says if an inadvertent whistle occurs, there has to be an untimed down? In my opinion, this means that a period can never end on an inadvertent whistle, even in the above situation. This means R could take the ball at the dead-ball spot and have an untimed down. 3-3-3 specifies that if the situations occur during an untimed down, the procedure is repeated and there's another untimed down.

4-2-3-c states that it is results of play or replay the down
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline VA Official

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 07:35:08 PM »
4-2-3-c states that it is results of play or replay the down

Correct, but 4-2-3c says nothing about an extension of period/untimed down. It says the team in possession can take the ball at the dead-ball spot or replay the down. Either way, 3-3-3 should still apply and I believe we should have an untimed down. The fact that 3-3-3 directly states a requirement to extend the period if there's an inadvertent whistle is a bigger player IMO than assuming "results of the play" removes the right to extend the period.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 07:51:59 PM by VA Official »

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2017, 08:30:05 PM »
Also, refer to 4-2-2j.  The ball is dead.  Then apply 4-2-3c as that's how we administer the inadvertent whistle. Then apply 3-3-3c as that refers to the extension of a period.

So R is going to have an untimed down from the dead ball spot.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline WCFB

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 01:30:32 AM »
I'm with GA Umpire on this one.

4-2-3c states "The team in possession may choose to either accept the results of the play at the dead-ball spot or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is in player possession."

Therefore, R has the choice to accept the result of the play at the dead-ball spot and the quarter is ended.

Or they can choose to replay the down, but that would give K the ball back.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 06:51:18 AM »
I believe that VA Official & Jackhammer have it right.  That's the most logical approach.

I'm also surprised that there isn't a Casebook play on this.

Offline Ump33

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2017, 06:57:45 AM »
+1 to VA Official and Jackhammer ... R's ball at the DB spot with an untimed down. See CB 3.3.3c, it does not involve a COP but it is running play with an IW. It is very clear the period is extended and A has the option to snap from the DB spot or go to the previous spot.

3.3.3 SITUATION C: During a down when time expires, A1 gains 10 yards and fumbles. The covering official inadvertently sounds his whistle while the ball is loose.

RULING: The period shall be extended for an untimed down and A may put the ball in play where it lost possession or it may choose to replay the down from the previous spot. (3-3-3c)

 

Offline KWH

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2017, 01:22:04 PM »
Late to the party on this one but...

The teams in this play are K and R rather than A and B

3.3.3 SITUATION C - Is applicable when an IW occurs during a LOOSE BALL. (Not the case here)

4-3-3c is the applicable rule here. Why? Because we have a change of possession and the IW was blown with the ball in player possession of R, AFTER the COP.
As such, There are two options for R as R was in player possession:

1) Replay the down - This means K gets to put the ball in play at the previous spot.
2) Accept the results of the play, (R's ball at the dead ball spot) and the period is over.
I think you guys may be reading way too much into this situation
No matter how hard you try, There is NEVER a situation where, following an IW, R (or B) would be next to put the ball in play!!!!
While it is not possible to have a Case Book play for every situation, the Closest Case Book play I could find would be 4.2.3 SITUATION D Note in this play B is in possession when the IW sounds, and, the ruling states B can replay the down or accept the results of the play.

I hope this helps

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2017, 01:53:48 PM »
Late to the party on this one but...

The teams in this play are K and R rather than A and B

3.3.3 SITUATION C - Is applicable when an IW occurs during a LOOSE BALL. (Not the case here)

4-3-3c is the applicable rule here. Why? Because we have a change of possession and the IW was blown with the ball in player possession of R, AFTER the COP.
As such, There are two options for R as R was in player possession:

1) Replay the down - This means K gets to put the ball in play at the previous spot.
2) Accept the results of the play, (R's ball at the dead ball spot) and the period is over.
I think you guys may be reading way too much into this situation
No matter how hard you try, There is NEVER a situation where, following an IW, R (or B) would be next to put the ball in play!!!!
While it is not possible to have a Case Book play for every situation, the Closest Case Book play I could find would be 4.2.3 SITUATION D Note in this play B is in possession when the IW sounds, and, the ruling states B can replay the down or accept the results of the play.

I hope this helps

KWH,
Not sure I agree.

Here's 3-3-3c from rule book
ART. 3 . . . A period shall be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires:

a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.

b. There was a double foul.

c. There was an inadvertent whistle.

d. If a touchdown was scored, the try is attempted unless the touchdown is scored during the last down of the fourth period and the point(s) would not affect the outcome of the game or playoff qualifying.

If (a), (b), (c) or (d) occurs during the untimed down, the procedure is repeated.


Doesn't say anything about loose ball.

You correctly note 4-2-3 is applicable for administering the IW.  I'm not sure I agree with your NEVER statement.  4-2-3c is applicable.  The ball is not loose, R has gained possession and then the IW happens.  Here is the rule:

ART. 3 . . . An inadvertent whistle ends the down. Inadvertent whistles are administered as follows:

a. The down shall be replayed if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while a legal forward pass or snap is in flight, or during a legal kick.

b. The team last in possession may choose to either put the ball in play where possession was lost or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is loose following a backward pass, fumble, illegal forward pass or illegal kick.

c. The team in possession may choose to either accept the results of the play at the dead-ball spot or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is in player possession.

d. The penalty shall be administered as determined by the basic spot and takes precedence over inadvertent whistle administration if, during a down, a live-ball foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle and the penalty is accepted.


R gets the choice to have the ball at the dead ball spot, they are NOT going to choose to replay as that would result in K having another chance at a scoring play.  At the dead ball spot, they get a snap.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline KWH

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 02:46:37 PM »
KWH,
Not sure I agree.

Here's 3-3-3c from rule book
ART. 3 . . . A period shall be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires:

a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.

b. There was a double foul.

c. There was an inadvertent whistle.

d. If a touchdown was scored, the try is attempted unless the touchdown is scored during the last down of the fourth period and the point(s) would not affect the outcome of the game or playoff qualifying.

If (a), (b), (c) or (d) occurs during the untimed down, the procedure is repeated.


Doesn't say anything about loose ball.

You correctly note 4-2-3 is applicable for administering the IW.  I'm not sure I agree with your NEVER statement.  4-2-3c is applicable.  The ball is not loose, R has gained possession and then the IW happens.  Here is the rule:

ART. 3 . . . An inadvertent whistle ends the down. Inadvertent whistles are administered as follows:

a. The down shall be replayed if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while a legal forward pass or snap is in flight, or during a legal kick.

b. The team last in possession may choose to either put the ball in play where possession was lost or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is loose following a backward pass, fumble, illegal forward pass or illegal kick.

c. The team in possession may choose to either accept the results of the play at the dead-ball spot or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is in player possession.

d. The penalty shall be administered as determined by the basic spot and takes precedence over inadvertent whistle administration if, during a down, a live-ball foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle and the penalty is accepted.


R gets the choice to have the ball at the dead ball spot, they are NOT going to choose to replay as that would result in K having another chance at a scoring play.  At the dead ball spot, they get a snap.

Jackhammer -

You last two sentences are where you are missing the point.
R can choose to Replay the down! (And you are correct they would not do this) OR
R can choose to accept the result of the play. (This means they are in possession of the ball on the 50 yard line and not time left on the clock so it is halftime.)

They DO NOT have a third option as you suggest.  They DO NOT get the ball AND another play. That is not an option here.

Restated 4-2-3c is the only applicable rule here and (as much as you may want it to in the name of fairness) your THIRD option is not on the table.

Again, (and someone may be able to say this in a better way, but;) There is NEVER a situation where B or R may put the ball in play following an IW.

Restated;
When R "Accepts the result of the play", then the IW, is set aside!  It goes away as it it never occurred!.
Therefore 3-3-3c is not applicable. So, since there was no IW and there was no accepted penalty.  Halftime folks!

I hope this helps
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 03:47:51 PM by KWH »

Offline WCFB

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 05:11:10 PM »
Jackhammer-

3-3-3 simply states when a period will be extended for an untimed down, nothing more. In our case we are looking at 3-3-3c.

Therefore, 4-2-3 gives us the administration options that apply to 3-3-3c. In this case, Team B will be presented with the options from 4-2-3c.

Option 1: Accept the results of the play... this leaves Team B in possession and the period is ended
Option 2: Replay the down... the down started with Team A in possession, therefore Team A would retain possession and the period would be extended for an additional untimed down. 

I understand that 3-3-3 states that the period shall be extended and some may interpret that as the period will be extended. However, 3-3-3 is simply the rule book provision that states the instances when the period will be extended. 3-3-3c does not say anything about how it will be handled, whereas 4-2-3 gives us the proper administrative options to enforce
3-3-3c. 

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2017, 05:20:41 PM »
How do you overcome the clearly stated rule?

A period shall be extended if there was an inadvertent whistle.

I will point you to case book 4.2.3 Situation G.  In this case there is an interception, then an inadvertent whistle.  It also includes a penalty situation.  If you ignore the penalty situation (which the case play covers) then B gets to keep the ball.  So this case play appears to refute your NEVER statement.

I don't believe that 4-2-3c is dealing with the clock situation, it is only dealing with administration of the IW.  There is more than one rule that is applying to this situation.

R in this case has gained possession with clean hands.  The IW kills the play which says B gets the ball at the dead ball spot.  The period shall be extended by rule.  It seems a relatively simple and logical order. 

It also seems innately fair in a situation where R  was apparently going to score, that opportunity was taken away by and this at least gives them one play to decide whether to try to overcome that.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline VA Official

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 05:22:23 PM »
Jackhammer -

You last two sentences are where you are missing the point.
R can choose to Replay the down! (And you are correct they would not do this) OR
R can choose to accept the result of the play. (This means they are in possession of the ball on the 50 yard line and not time left on the clock so it is halftime.)

They DO NOT have a third option as you suggest.  They DO NOT get the ball AND another play. That is not an option here.

Restated 4-2-3c is the only applicable rule here and (as much as you may want it to in the name of fairness) your THIRD option is not on the table.

Again, (and someone may be able to say this in a better way, but;) There is NEVER a situation where B or R may put the ball in play following an IW.

Restated;
When R "Accepts the result of the play", then the IW, is set aside!  It goes away as it it never occurred!.
Therefore 3-3-3c is not applicable. So, since there was no IW and there was no accepted penalty.  Halftime folks!

I hope this helps

I would have to disagree here. If the inadvertent whistle was meant to be ignored, it would be directly stated as it is in 4-2-3d for an accepted penalty (in which it says "takes precedence over"). Result of the play has no bearing on ignoring the inadvertent whistle, because the fact is the inadvertent whistle was a part of the play. It's what caused the play to end. The final "result" was a dead ball due to an inadvertent whistle. 3-3-3c says an inadvertent whistle with time expiring during the down results in an extension of period, and there are no exceptions listed to this rule.

You are right that they do not have a third option. That's because there are only 2: replay the down with an untimed down, or take the ball at the dead-ball spot with an untimed down.

I don't believe that 4-2-3c is dealing with the clock situation, it is only dealing with administration of the IW.

This is furthered by what rule each item is listed under. Rule 4 covers "ball in play, dead ball, and out of bounds" while Rule 3 covers "periods, time factors, and substitutions." I'm going to take my timing considerations from Rule 3 when there is another rule that may or may not be interpreted to be in conflict with it.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 06:08:25 PM by VA Official »

Offline WCFB

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2017, 10:57:32 PM »
Jackhammer

I see the error in my logic. 4-2-3 is how we handle the IW, but 3-3-3 explicitly states how the end of a period will be handled if there was an IW.

One untimed down for Team B at the dead-ball spot.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 09:09:04 AM »
Thru the cobwebs of my murky memory ,I recall the following :

The untimed down rule used to apply only if  the choice of the team in possession was to replay the down.

Then along came a state championship game in , I believe , Michigan. B intercepted with seconds to go in the first half. During the interception return, an eager tweeter sounded his bugle. To get an untimed down, B would have to replay the down by giving the ball back to A. B chose to end the half.

That wasn't fair hEaDbAnG.

To make it fair, the rule was tweaked to read that B could take the ball at the dead ball spot (where it was when the bugle sounded) and replay the down.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 09:14:32 AM »
After reading this whole thread, B gets an untimed down at the dead ball spot.  In 3-3-3c, it does not state "Replay the down if an IW occurs and the down is replayed."  It simply states "an IW occurs."  Seems odd, but we have to extend the period by rule, no matter which option they choose.

Offline HLTN

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 04:10:53 PM »
Thank you for the replies.  I'm not sure if anything has been totally decided upon, but our state office is looking into it.
No matter how you cut it, B/R was directly affected by an eager whistle.
For the record, the gentleman who made the blunder is a fantastic official with 2 state championships under his belt.  I don't have to mention, on this forum, how horrible he feels about it.


Offline VALJ

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2017, 01:59:09 PM »
Thank you for the replies.  I'm not sure if anything has been totally decided upon, but our state office is looking into it.
No matter how you cut it, B/R was directly affected by an eager whistle.
For the record, the gentleman who made the blunder is a fantastic official with 2 state championships under his belt.  I don't have to mention, on this forum, how horrible he feels about it.

It happens to everyone, as this shows.  There are three types of officials - those who HAVE HAD an IW, those who are GOING TO HAVE an IW, and those who LIE ABOUT HAVING HAD an IW.  :)

Offline KWH

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Re: Untimed down(s)?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 01:15:57 AM »
I'm not sure if anything has been totally decided upon, but our state office is looking into it.


Please share what information your state office provides.