Author Topic: Scrimmage Kick Play  (Read 1216 times)

Offline NCVAReferee

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Scrimmage Kick Play
« on: August 28, 2017, 02:45:37 PM »
K 4/10 @ K-30.  K's punt is high and is coming down toward the R-30.  Gunner K44 and R89 are tied up blocking each other the entire distance down the field.  R89 is not attempting th catch the punt.  Prior to the ball striking the ground, the ball comes down on top of R89's helmet as he is blocking K44.  R89 is (a) driving K44 forward as the ball hits R89's helmet, or is (b) being driven backward by K44 and the ball hits R89 in the helmet.  No other R player is in the vicinity attempting to catch the punt.

In both cases, K77 recovers the grounded punt after it strikes R89's helmet.

What do you have?

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Play
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 05:46:59 PM »
In (a), it's a muff by R.  K may recover the kick, but not advance.  K's ball, 1st and 10 at the spot of recovery.

In (b), the touching by R is ignored, since he was blocked into the kick by K.  K has downed the kick, and it's R's ball 1st and 10 at that spot.

Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Play
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 08:23:24 PM »
Same scenarios but instead of the ball hitting R's helmet it hits K's helmet.  What is the outcome?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Play
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 08:42:34 PM »
Similarly, for discussion, could KCI come into play (6-5-6b)? Also Case Book 6.5.6 SITUATION C. How is "in position to make the catch" defined?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:44:21 PM by Rulesman »
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Offline prab

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Play
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 10:06:54 PM »
Similarly, for discussion, could KCI come into play (6-5-6b)? Also Case Book 6.5.6 SITUATION C. How is "in position to make the catch" defined?

I'll take a shot at defining "in position to make a catch".  My suggestion is to rely on the rule book definition of "in bounds", which doesn't exist, but has been implied to be "not out of bounds". 

Therefore, "in position to make a catch"  implies "not not (double negative intended) in position to make a catch".

I may submit this as a question for the 2018 Part 1 exam.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Play
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 08:52:20 AM »
K 4/10 @ K-30.  K's punt is high and is coming down toward the R-30.  Gunner K44 and R89 are tied up blocking each other the entire distance down the field.  R89 is not attempting th catch the punt.  Prior to the ball striking the ground, the ball comes down on top of R89's helmet as he is blocking K44.  R89 is (a) driving K44 forward as the ball hits R89's helmet, or is (b) being driven backward by K44 and the ball hits R89 in the helmet.  No other R player is in the vicinity attempting to catch the punt.

In both cases, K77 recovers the grounded punt after it strikes R89's helmet.

What do you have?

Same scenarios but instead of the ball hitting R's helmet it hits K's helmet.  What is the outcome?

Let me do (b) first: I have kick catching interference here.
Quote from: 6-5-6a
While ... any scrimmage kick is in flight beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line, K shall not touch the ball or R, unless blocked into the ball or R, or to ward off a blocker.
In (b), that action does not sound (at that point) like warding off a blocker.  ^flag

In (a), K44 now *is* trying to ward off a blocker (that or he's in the midst of getting knocked on his keester). No KCI. R has touched the ball first, so I have K 1/10 @ point of recovery.

In your followup about the ball hitting K's helmet, I have the same ruling for (b). Who touches the ball is largely irrelevant - it's still KCI.

In (a), while the initial first touching off of K's helmet is ignored because he's blocked into it, the subsequent recovery *is* first touching. Thus, now it's R 1/10 @ point of recovery.

Offline Curious

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Play
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 11:51:25 AM »
First, if K4 and R89 are "locked up the entire distance down the field", does the direction of the "pushing" really matter? IMO, assuming there is a back-and- forth action between the two players, the touching by R89 should simply be ignored in both "a" and "b"  Otherwise,  the covering official would have to rule whether the last push/pull resulted in KCI. 

Also, is the intent of the rule really to penalize K when R has one lone player (engaged in blocking in this case) in the area but has no idea where the ball is?